...just witness the endless controversies in the last few decades over the definition and meaning of "disabled".

I agree with Dunx that the problem is really one of society not being able to handle people who are different. It's terrible that children, in particular, who have a different way of learning, get straitjacketed into the traditional methods and classed as having a problem if they don't fit in. It's especially ridiculous given how much society actually prizes ADD traits in many ways - such as creativity and spontaneity - which is how people like Billy Connolly, Robin Williams, and Ozzy Osbourne got to where they are today. Bill Clinton, of course, is the classic ADD kid made good. But at the same time, I do think that there is good evidence that ADD, in particular, is a discrete and specific disorder, with specific physiological causes, rather than a handy name for a bunch of sometimes associated phenomena. Raak is wrong to say that the genetic correlations of ADD are vague: they are not vague at all, and there is very good evidence for a strictly physiological basis, although of course how that basis manifests itself will vary according to conditions. Certainly ADD behaviours do vary from person to person in type and degree, which is one of the things that make it hard to diagnose, but it doesn't follow that the underlying cause varies - at least where ADD is the correct diagnosis. We have a rather skewed view of it in the UK because, as he says, it hasn't been officially recognised here for very long, compared to the US; in fact, some of the newer treatments for it, such as Concerta (essentially slow-release Ritalin) are unheard of to many supposed experts in this country. Plus, of course, the media like to fixate on issues of medication and horror stories about it. By the same token, it would be better if society could change to accommodate those of us who are different, but given that it can't, medication is a whole lot better than nothing. I have known people whose lives have been utterly ruined by ADD as well as by OCD. If they had been diagnosed earlier and given the help they needed - medication as well as proper counselling and behavioural therapy - who knows how things might have been different.

Something happened to my paragraph marks. I do apologise - as if my tedious exhalations aren't bad enough as it is...

[BM] So what are the discrete physiological causes of ADD popularly supposed to be, then?

[Projoy] Primarily temporal lobe dysfunction, at least according to Dr Daniel Amens who was one of the first to use brain scans to try and figure out what is different in an ADD brain. I've read his book Amens' "Healing ADD" where he describes the different areas of brain activation in the six varieties of ADD which he identifies. All of them share some degree of temporal lobe dysfunction.

The temporal lobe controls your ability to concentrate, and is more active when a brain is concentrating on something. A typical pattern in an ADD brain is that when it is used to concentrate deliberately on something then the temporal lobe is actually deactivated (ie there is less neural activity). I say "deliberately" because a common ADD behaviour is 'hyperfocus' where the brain will concentrate on something novel¹ to the exclusion of all else, but this is rarely deliberate.

Note that there is another book called "Healing ADD" by Thom Hartmann, that I would also recommend, but which is entirely different. In particular, Mr Hartmann specifically attacks Amens' work in scanning brains. But there we are.

[1] another very annoying aspect of this is that I cannot go to sleep if there is speech in earshot. I'll be drifting off quite satisfactorily when my brain will latch on to the interesting noises and amplify them in my perception. Similarly, I need silence or at least white noise if I need to think about a task which I am not entirely involved in, because otherwise my mind will concentrate on the novel rather than what I'm supposed to be doing.

Right, but that still leaves Raak's point unchallenged, doesn't it? There's nothing to suggest that there's a single cause for that particular pattern of brain activity.

Quite right.

For instance, even the mechanisms by which ADD brain patterns arise in the individual are not certain. There is a high correlation between ADD in parents and in their offspring (a figure of 70% is often quoted) which might suggest a genetic link, but it could equally be due to upbringing: the brain is plastic enough that learning will change its structure (no specific references, I'm afraid - I read this recently but can't remember where), and if much of a child's early development is achieved through mimicry then it's quite possible to imagine that parental ADD behaviours might imprint on the child.

It may well be that the role of genetics in mental development is overstated. There is some work (this book, for instance) which puts forward the argument that:

1. there is a common perception that genetic factors are the largest causative agent in mental illness
2. there is almost no evidence of a correlation between mental illness in children and in their parents (the book linked to states that the strongest correlation is in schizophrenia where there is a 50% correlation; nothing about ADD though)
3. if hypothesis (1) is wrong, then it must be environmental
4. the most pervasive environmental influence on children is their parenting
5. therefore the way you are raised is why your head works the way it does.

So, ADD may be at least as much a social phenomenon as a genetic one, although I also think that any learning which has this effect would have been at such a young age that there is no element of choice to it .

I wonder if I could change the subject. Feel free to ignore me. A co-worker is driving me crazy. Her husband hit her and one of the kids and she got a court order that he stay away. Since then, she is trying to find ways to meet him or to justify meeting him. He is possibly suicidal and she thinks this means she should help him. I point out how these suicidal guys sometimes take the family with them (to death), but she still vacillates. She is obsessed and talks about it constantly: outside on breaks, at my workstation, on the phone, in e-mail. She also obsesses about how she wants sex with him and graphically tells me stuff. Oddly, she listens to my advice, which is quite blunt and includes telling her she is not rational now, but I have a law background, not a psychological one. What do I do to get her to get the help she needs? How do I keep her from putting herself in harm's way? How do I (a gazillion other things)?

Personally, apart from - as you mention - trying to convince her to get some professional assistance I'd stay well out, Tina. If she truly is irrational, heaven knows what affect any well meant advice may have on her. If you do attempt to convince her to get some help I think I'd leave the broken relationship out of any coaxing and simply concentrate on the fact that she is under stress at this time ... Then again, I'm no psychologist!

[cross-posted with Duj] How very difficult for you. Are you in the UK? Can you point her towards the Samaritans or even Relate? In my experience [I've been a voluntary counsellor for some years] you are doing the right thing, in that you are listening. If you are happy to be just a sounding-board, for that is all you are, try not be too disappointed if she fails to heed your warnings. By confiding in you, I'm afraid it looks as though she is seeking justification and perhaps your approval for her future actions, ie. she is likely to meet up with him. I would say, your main problem is that her irrationality appears to have transmuted into outrageously selfish and controlling behaviour [towards you] and you have to guage how much more you can cope with. When she's next in 'listening' mode, you might gently point out that you have a life aswell. But unless she admits she needs professional help, there is little you can do, short of frog-marching her into a doctor's surgery. [Blimey! Do I sound like an agony aunt or what?]

Yes, this is what my sister says as well. I'm in the US and our employer has a counseling plan. My sister says, make excues when she comes to my cubicle. Yes, she is always seeking my approval. She will announce some awful plan, come to my desk, and ask what I think. I say I disapprove, and so far that works. But it's not right really. I'm not the professional. And she is selfish now. There is nothing in her life except her crisis. She lost maybe 20 pounds. She writes me at 3 a.m. and is not sleeping. Thanks for all your help. I just don't want to open the paper and find her dead.

I cannot put myself in your position and therefore cannot really understand, but it sounds like you are in a most awkward position - particularly if you feel obligated to your co-worker. Chalky is undoubtedly correct when she mentions listening but this, long term, could interfere with your own work. In view of the fact that your employer has a counseling service, why don't you have a talk with their staff? Depending on legal contingencies you may have to keep the name of your fellow worker out of any discussion, but at least you may receive 'proper' advice (and by that please do not think that I am denigrating Chalky's input.)

Tina] If you are concerned for her life then she definitely needs professional help. I think you have demonstrated the characteristics of a good listener - but you are not responsible for her situation. She has to be, so it may help to explain this to her in a kindly and assertive way. She may thank you for it.

Thanks to you all for the good advice.

I would echo what Dujon said in his last post - counsellors can be extremely useful even if you aren't the one who is in direct need of their services. It allows one to perspectivise the situation. Obviously the best case scenario is if somehow your colleague manages to sort her situation out; the worst case scenario is if this doesn't happen and you get dragged down with it. I found a counsellor was enormously helpful in staving off the latter when I was in a tricky situation.

To keep the competitive daughter away from MY Daq account - I suggested she sign up herself. She thinks she can knock spots of the rest of us. What a challenge. Any chance of slipping her into our mini-league? [x_sugarbabe_x - 3509835]

Some people have to work you know, others sit around waiting for the server to get back up ... so in between this and that, I've added x_sugarbabe_x.

Well, I'm going to have to waste about £600,000 in my NI-capping. Feh!

Coincedentally, the R4 programme "All In The Mind" had a segment on OCD on the 28th October edition.

... or rather, I should say, about hoarding. Slight misadvertising there. It's the first segment after the intro.

I've nothing much to add to the above (having just caught up with the foregoing) except to wish Tina luck with her situation and to thank those who've talked about such personal issues so openly in the ADD/OCD debate.
My own feelings are that I feel myself to be somewhat... eccentric, particularly socially. Some days I seem to fire on all cylinders and participate on all levels with "the group" (meaning colleagues & students) - cracking jokes and fitting into the ongoing banter as we work, but other days it's like I'm out of sync or speaking a different language.
I don't feel this or any other of my eccentricities are anything like extreme enough to warrant labelling as a disorder - and my feeling has been reinforced by some of the above - it's seldom if ever a real interference in my life. As Projoy suggested, when you hear stories from people who have suffered it humbles your own pretentions to such things!
I've often remarked flippantly that no-one worth knowing is "normal" or 100% sane - and I do believe it's the oddnesses about people that make them interesting day-to-day. Not so much that these traits are odd perhaps as that they're different, new and interesting. They characterise people, and make them unique.

I was also struck by Dunx's comments about difficulty falling asleep if there's audible conversation going on - I find falling asleep very difficult generally, and any sort of distraction is a killer: conversation (especially other people in the house talking, but also just tv) light - especially ambient light through the window, strong wind & rain (although they're kind of nice to listen to...) I've found music helps, although it needs to be the right sort of music - usually but not always without lyrics, often ambient. Dead Can Dance, Brian Eno's ambient classic Music For Airports and William Orbit's Strange Cargo III are all favourites to drop off to. They help shut out the rest.
Hmmm - this has turned into an insomnia post really...
[Celebdaq] I'm flabbergasted that Keanu Reeves is still dropping despite the last Matrix films opening... I was doing so well with Arnie before that too... ho hum.

[bl] "The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well."

Could it be because the last Matrix film is getting bad reviews, rather than good?

[blamelewis] I sympathise greatly. I have always suffered terribly from this. I have been known, on more than one occasion, to be kept awake by my own heartbeat. This is an example of how diagnosis helps, however: now that I know I have OCD, I recognise much of this as silly obsessiveness within my own head. I don't really need conditions to be perfect before I fall asleep, I just think I do, and it's the obsessing about it that actually keeps me awake. And that alone makes things much easier. However, I still cannot sleep through any kind of human-made noise. Those damn humans!

Dunx/Blame/Bread] Sleep is something I adore. I could easily (and and often have) fallen asleep within earshot of conversation - que joke about boring conversations. But to try and fall asleep to music, even Brian Eno, would be impossible for me. I'd be far too wrapped up in thinking about the music to let it lull me. I prefer natural darkness and scilence - as experienced on Shetland - where there is vitually no man-made background light or sound.

[Bob] I've noticed a big difference since moving out of Glasgow - there's no longer a streetlight glaring in my window, and only very occasionally do the sounds of drunken revelry intrude. {Bread] i feel sometimes it's the whirl of thoughts in my head keeping me awake - that and being insufficiently tired - I know part of the problem is my lack of regular exercise also. [JLE - Matrix] Bad press should count as much as good - look at Prince Charles this week!

I fall asleep listening to Radio 4 - I like the noise of voices as I doze off. If there are too many of my thoughts whirling around in my head, (and this is where I start to think I'm odd, after reading everyone else's confessions) I kind of 'take dictation' from the shipping forecast or the news or whatever is broadcast. I hear the words, then see them in my mind's eye on the page, the shape of the letters and the shape and length of the word. It leaves no room for other thoughts and I'm asleep within minutes. I can't listen to music to fall asleep - it has a stuimulant effect, no matter what kind of music it is.

Adult to small child who has just answered the door: "Is your Mummy in?"
Small child: "She's asleep listening to Woman's Hour."

I don't seem to have this trouble. Diet and preoccupation seem to be pretty much the only factors that affects whether I sleep. Thus I must not eat after 7 if I want to fall asleep by 11. And almost nothing wakes me. Someone was stabbed to death on my street once and I slept through the whole incident. Provided I have followed the eating rule, I can fall asleep to any music or stimulus, even violent atonal C20th music. I fully expect to die in a fire someday.

I am fortunate. I fall asleep when I want to, which means when I am tired. I sleep lightly but it never really bothers me if I wake in the night [or if I am woken] because a cup of tea usually sorts me out. I wake when I need to. How dull.

Not really - BUT - come on, Dr.Q+ - you are within sight of the line (or at least in line of site.) You can make it ... deep breath ... push ... push ... only a bit to go ...

I'm afraid that Doris_Newbold and ffiish are about to lose a bit of well earned dosh, Doris though having just made the finishing post.

[Chalky] not at all, sounds blissful! [celebdaq] That's it, I've sold Keanu, his usefulness offscreen clearly not in proportion to his arboresence on screen... it Prince Charles for me! (As the Butler said) (allegedly)

I like sleep but sleep doesn't like me. I can't do it properly at all. And following on another comment, I fully expect to die by being stabbed to death as I set fire to Projoy's house.

At the beginning of the week, when I have classes, I get about 3-5 hours of sleep a night. At the end of the week, I get 10-12. Plus, any night of the week, I might decide not to sleep at all. In this fashion, I am training my body not to expect any particular amount of sleep at any particular time. I'll never be jet-lagged again!
[noise] I can't handle TV or conversation when trying to sleep at all, but I can handle music if it doesn't have lyrics, and is very repetative. For instance, I've fallen asleep underneath tables in the middle of raves a couple of times. Of course, driving all day to get there and then having to unload all the speakers undoubtedly helped.

I used to have terrible trouble sleeping through other people's noise. My lodger used to have music on at night fairly quietly and it used to drive me mad, especially the fact that the bassline was audible more than the rest, to the point where we had a screaming row about it. She couldn't see my point of view and I was incensed that she couldn't see mine. Now that I know I'm obsessive about it I can sleep through it just fine. If it's me making the noise (my music, my radio, etc) I can sleep through practically anything.

FG] I couldn't stand any music at night either. I once shared a room in an International hostel with a guy who had an immense collection of pop music from Ghana. I had to move rooms to stay sane. The ex-roommate then started to make claims that I was racist (notes on the message board - complaints to the hostel management) because I didn't like being kept up till 4.00am every night. In an international setting, this was extremely hurtful.

This may seem funny, but it is really very sad. I someone who suffered from Tourette's syndrome recently. For some bizarre reason, he'd chosen to become a street performer - specialising in children’s entertainment. There must be a reason why he chose such an inappropriate career path.

I met someone

[Bob] Sounds interesting. Tell us more!

Lib] Not much more to tell. I was with my (at that time) 6 year old daughter. This chap was dressed in colourful street hippy type clothes and was earnestly and unsuccessfully trying to attract the attention of people with children outside Shakespeare’s Birthplace (I live in Stratford). I'm not usually keen on this kind of thing, but he seemed so honestly appealing so we stood and watched him juggle. He came over to us and talked to my Daughter. He was very sweet and friendly but when he spoke to me it was obvious he has Tourette's because he would twitch (as if sneezing) and shout a swearword. My partner and I are not uptight about letting my daughter hear swearwords, if she asks, we just tell her what they mean and that they are words it is wrong to use in public because they could cause offence. Same with this guy. It gave me an opportunity to talk to my daughter about the syndrome and how awful it must be to be a sufferer. The juggler, however, was not at all popular - especially with other parents - which was a shame because he really was good with my daughter.

Not too gutted though - made well over 200,000 since dividend payout having not quite reached the 2,000,000 mark and was never going to make it up to the 3,000,000 mark before today. This week will be the real test.

[Bob and anyone else who's interested] There is a form of Tourette's, just as well documented, which manifests it self in strange twitches and 'noises' but NOT swearing. [I suppose it's not surprising that the uncontrolled blaspheming is the symptom that attracts all the attention - and sniggers] I know this because my brother's son had it. He and his wife noticed when my nephew was about 8 years old and within months he was diagnosed by the top specialists in the country. They have spent years keeping abreast of the constantly updated research on the syndrome as well as communicating via support groups, etc with other families who suffer. They were told quite early on that he would 'grow out' of it during puberty. He did. He's now 16 and is a superb county rugby player and is in the England R U Development Squad.

Had a conversation with a friend last night, she mentioned someone she knew who had Tourette's -- his specific symptom was that he'd 'baa' like a sheep all the time...

Bob] You are right of course to say it is very sad and an awful syndrome etc etc. BUT, I am sorry, a juggling kid's entertainer with tourettes. That is comedy genius. Or would be if it were a sketch on Trigger Happy TV and not real life. Are you telling me that you haven't since laughed at the thought of the guy handing a balloon shaped like a donkey to some 6 year old and then saying "BOLLOCKS" really loudly? Tragic syndrome. Hysterically funny image.

Tee-hee - a self-drive rental truck has just driven into our office balcony, gashing a huuuuge hole in its roof!!

I drove one of them last time we shifted. Why me and not the man of the house I can't remember. I was completely paranoid, because of the huge excess to pay if there'd been an accident, and because it was huge compared with our little car. But the bouncy driver's seat was fun.

[flerdle] It'll be because you're sensible and give off an air of confidence and capable-ness. And of course, you could blame Mr flerdle for making you drive if there'd been an accident... ;o)

[penelope] I love how your mind works :-D

St d] In fact that is what happened - except there was no balloon and he said "W@NKER" :o)

If walking past my old primary school is representive, kids know words like bol****s and w**ker anyway. In my day 'bum' was rather naughty.

They taught me to spell in those days as well.

Bob] And you have laughed since in teling this story ? I am tempted to turn into a street clown and fake the tourettes.

not that i am particularly bored today or anything, but I just found a googlewhack, and they wont let me post it - I assume because it is deemed rude. Anyway I willshare it here as it is a genuine whack! FELLATED MOHICANS.

St d] Come to think of it - he said that too...

[st d] Are you sure that's a googlewhack? If so I'm really rather surprised.

Oooh! It is, I just checked..

[flerdle] You have a longer drive this time. And remember to deflate the tires when you reach the desert.

I was going to compose an extraordinarily witty comment to post somewhere on the site. However, I thought that this was even more funny (courtesy of my I.S.P.):

Service Disruption Start: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 at 5:53AM EDST
Last Updated: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 at 12:04PM EDST
Scheduled Service Disruption: No
Who is affected: Some customers
Impact: We are currently having problems with ADSL. This is affecting customers in New South Wales. Some customers will experience no dataflow. Technicians are treating this issue as a priority and are working on the problem.

Right, I'm off to find a pub or a bottle or something - it beats crying. Any takers?

Not clear? Probably not.

I have just spent considerable amounts of time attempting to post/read/hack a number of sites. I'm giving up and, hopefully, will see you all tomorrow.

Last night, bored as hell with the quality of discussion in a chatroom, I began posting "Fascinating Facts", all culled from the lies game on this very server. After I posted Ibid's "Hammerhead sharks have to clean their teeth regularly, due to the large quantities of salted peanuts they eat." one of my duller interlocutors asked "where do they get the peanuts", allowing me to take great pleasure in replying "Do I look like a marine biologist?"

Totally irrelevant I know, but just a small example of how the MC community brings happiness into the world in small unexpected ways. :)

I remember meeting you once in the Head of Steam many moons ago, on a Tuesday if I recall correctly. From that dim recollection, and also from my having met more than a couple of Marine Biologists in my time, I can only conclude that from a certain angle, and in the right light, you actually DO look like a Marine Biologist. But that is by the by - where DO the sharks get the peanuts from ?

You know, sometimes I wish I actually were a marine biologist. Particularly today, with the office feeling especially horrible.

Indeed. How nice to be sitting on a beach somewhere far flung with a torch and a clipboard and a ruler, waiting for a load of turtles to turn up.

[Projoy] Why are people in chatrooms so stupid? The number of times I've tried to talk about something interesting or intelligent, only to get in reply "wot". I appreciate that my kind of interesting conversation may not be everyone's, or indeed anyone's, but what kind of idiot just types "wot"? The same kind that spells "great" with an 8, I suppose. [Shuffles off in carpet slippers muttering about the war.]

[Bready] Where do you chat? I'll gladly gatecrash and help you to liven things up a bit. Likewise [Projoy] there's some interesting Duologues to be made there, I'm sure. I was a frequenter of MSN chatrooms, where I would resort to lobbing virtual cushions about the room to initiate some reaction. And if nobody responded to a cushion, I'd try throwing virtual knives.

I have to confess - when I first became internetted a few years ago, my first port of call was an MSN chatroom. I plunged myself nervously into the mêlée, learned all the patter, sussed out the dynamics, etc. Anyway, after a couple of unsatisfactory weeks I decided it wasn't for me and became far more attracted to the community message board attached to the room, where I encountered some like-minded souls. Anyway, to cut a long [but rather interesting] story short, I now have two very close friends whom I see on a regular basis as a result of that experience. So, although I wouldn't be seen dead in a chatroom now [they terrify me], I can't exactly decry those who get something out of the experience.
Besides, if I manage to get any time to myself late evening, I would rather bimble around the Crescent sites. Talking of which, does anyone frequent the MCiOS chat server? If I knew that some friendly faces were in there, I might make an exception.

As far as I can see we never get around to creating enough activity in our own chatroom at MCiOS. We should maybe have a particular time in the week (like Sunday night at 8 or whatever) for VirtualPilgs, then the place would really buzz.

Oh, and to leap back to the neurology discussions, is it meaningful for a person to maintain "I'm pretty ADD today" (as I have just done to a colleague. I certainly am finding it hard to focus on anything for longer than 20 seconds today, which is not always a problem.

Why do I invariably leave off the closing parenthesis or comma from a subclause, and why do I often forget to put a question mark at the end of a question? Somebody must know. I can't be the only one.

[Projoy] Damn fine idea, although I'm part of a pub quiz team and we compete on Sunday nights, so I can't make it until about 11pm. Also I'm likely to be a bit squiffy.

Noting your simulpost PJ - it's because you're having an BAD ADD day

I had the answer to your questions, then I am afraid I got distracted by a tiny jam tart.

Mmm. Jam tart.

[Chalky] I'm usually in there while I'm at work (usually 12:30-21:30 GMT), but often not at my desk when anyone happens to show up. :(

Distractions? DISTRACTIONS?? You should worry - a mere glimpse at the words jam tart sent me into the kitchen to throw together a chocolate sponge. Smells lovely, mind.

I just had another one. Terribly nice. Tiny little ones as well. From Safeways I believe. Mmmmm.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! You know I can actually FEEL myself stagnating today. This is not good.

The thing is, strange people live in the MCiOS chatroom.. scary people..

Yay! I just won a prize!

Well done, snorgle. Your statement begs the questions - what and what for?

[st d] Glad I'm not the only one. Know what I did (nobody tell my boss, please). I stood up, announced I was going for a late lunch, then walked out of the building took a tube to Covent Garden and marched into the Back Rub Centre for 20 minutes of massage by a very attractive man. I came back and slipped into my desk with a cat and cream sort of expression. It may not have helped my productivity, but it sure as hell made me feel better.

I can't MCiOSchat at work :o( but I can eat jam tarts, although right now we don't have any. We had mince pies in the office yesterday though :o). A weekly cyberpilg would be good - I sometimes see DrQ in there, and occasionally flerdle, usually 9pm-ish GMT. How about a Monday night?
And simulposted by Projoy - why can't I work closer to Covent Garden and the attractive backrub man? Tesco's mince pies down't sound a patch on a cat-and-cream expression after a session like that. (Mind you, there are runours of a company with its own rowing eight moving into the office suite next door to us):oD

Monday nights are probably quite sensible, since one's least likely to have a social engagement/evening class/rehearsal/major shopping expedition/press conference to launch Conservative leadership bid that night.

Bugger - that's the evening I usually have sex. Ah well, I suppose abstaining one day a week won't do any harm. :-)

[pen] a Company with its own rowing eight?? I wonder if the contentious eightsome have to work in a separate soundproofed room so their 'loggerheading' doesn't disturb the placid ones?

[Chalky] The new company has 'Porcelain' in its title (I've seen some early post in the lobby) so perhaps they're made to keep their oars elsewhere for fear of smashing the samples. I wonder where they keep their rowlocks?

Monday nights sound good to me.

Do Monday nights suit non-UK MCers? It'd be particularly good if Dunx, Dr Q, Flerdle and Dujon et al can join in as they can't get to UK pilgs.

This Monday is out for me - I'm doin' my thing at a conference in Edinburgh. Three days of torment made good because of the location.

But I'll join in a week on Monday. I'll merrily settle down in front of the PC with a big drink and a cuddly toy (I've never been on a pilg but I believe this is the done thing).

I'm looking forward to the new Under Milk Wood on R4 this Sat - thank God they've kept Burton.

I haven't tried the chat room recently from work; should be OK, since our firewall is reasonably permissive. And Monday night is probably a better bet in any case - the last time any kind of regular online MCing was attempted was with an IRC channel many moons ago, and I don't think there were ever more than about four people.

[snorgle] I didn't think I was that scary...

I have had several attempts at seeing if people could coordinate to turn up in the chatroom at some particular time, but it's never worked. However, pilgs have been great, and things seem to really take off when there's more than three people there (or more than one, which is more often the case). Now that there seems to be some sort of interest, of *course* I'll be around. When people are at wirk it just doesn't work, I think, so UK evenings are fine for me, especially now that the sun comes up earlier. Day of the week doesn't matter too much, although if I work that day I may have to leave by 11pm UK time (Sundays and Tuesdays, probably). Some days I can be around longer because I'll be working from home, so there may be a possibility of more US-Aus meeting more towards the US evening time, (even west coast). My possible times, of course, are only for the next two months, then I'll have to see how the net connection and a new time zone work. Monday night is fine. What other possibilities are there? Maybe broadcast the idea to the other two sites.

*lights candle, sings softly to self*

[flerdle]I might manage a Monday, but can't guarantee I'd be there long..(it was JLE who was scary..:) I can't get into that chatroom at work, but home is fine. I think my computer is on its last legs(or something), but I've asked for one for Christmas, so you never know.. :) I won a trip up to London to see Love Actually - travelling up Friday, staying overnight and seeing the film the next morning..Yay!

Oh, I say, snorgle, well done!
What is it with ladies? My wife has been fortunate enough to win two (2!) trips over the last few years - well, ten or fifteen years - one to Fiji and one to Mauritius ... grrrr!

[Dujon] Not this one. hmph.

Well, if the activity in the chatroom last night was any indication, we could be in for a fun time when Mondays roll around :-)

*blows out candle, wanders off*

Just remembered that on Monday night I too shall be in Edinburgh. [Bob] I'm in Embra on Mon/Tues nights. I expect you'll be tied up with your conferencing, but if you fancy a pint let me know and we could work something out.

Got the details in the post this morning (first class does still work sometimes..) and we'll be staying at the Hyde Park Towers Hotel, so I hope it's nice. Luckily I managed to get tomorrow off work without any trouble..

rab] That'd be fab - Monday drawback is I'm a meeting between 6 and 8 ish. I arrive (if Virgin do their stuff) at 15.41 so I've got some time either early or late evening. Tues busy until 9ish. If you are still able to go for a drink - email me!

[rab]Are you being Shaggy?

[snorgle] Isn't that rather a personal question?! But so as I don't become the subject of unfounded allegations I should point out that that's the sound of an email winging it's way to Bob the dog.

Rooby rooby roo!

Just to return to the subject again, oh wait jam tarts.....
ahem I had an ADD moment last night. I was watching a film which, whilst enjoyable, was not exactly the most demanding in terms of plot or dialogue After 45 minutes or so I found myself fidgeting and eventually I was balancing cigarettes on my hat, just to keep a bit more of my mind occupied. I wondered if this has something to do with it, maybe my brain requires more than an 'average' amount of stimulation and that maybe this could be related both to ADD and OCD? If I'm suitably engrossed in something, most of my OCD evaoprates only to return when I get bored again. Discuss?

Sounds like you were just bored FG. I mean, its understandable really. What I am interested in though (and this may sound flippant but is a serious enquiry) is the hat/cigarette thing. Were you balancing the cigarettes whilst in the packet ? Or were you balancing single cigarettes on their end (far trickier) Were you wearing the hat ? What kind of hat was it ? Were the cigarettes lit ?

[FG] Not wanting to bore on this topic any more than necessary, but yes, the more engrossed I am in something the less OCD I am, and the less, the more, if you see what I mean. But I think this applies to everyone to some degree. Aristotle says that the only people who eat sweets at the theatre are those who are bored by the play, the point being that there's no such thing as generic "pleasure", but rather each activity has its own pleasure, and the more engaged you are in an activity, the more you enjoy it. In other words, you can't completely enjoy two things at once, because they will compete for your attention; and conversely, if you aren't enjoying something, your mind will try to find something else to enjoy. Discuss.

Heavy, saucer-shaped object they throw in athletics competitions. Discus. sorrysorrysorry

I can't sit still, especially in things that I'm required to sit still for. My mum refuses to sit by me at the theatre as i'm constantly shuffling in my seat and my boyfriend clobbers me when i fidget whilst sat next to him at the cinema. Its not cos I'm bored (as I'm often accused of) I just get un-comfy so feel the need to move.

[Lib] I find lot of theatre and cinema seats are rather uncomfortable at about the one hour stage. Shuffling is somewhat necessary.

[Lib]I try to sit in the front row or on an aisle seat - more leg room that way.

Apparently, the MCiOS chat room does work for me at work. This is good. I should be along on Monday, meetings permitting.

[FG] I know what you mean. I find some meetings to be similarly frustrating.

[st d] It's a wooly hat. It was on the floor. It was knitted by my mum with big thick wool and consequently (a) stands up on its own, and (b) has holes in it especially a nice one in the top. I managed to get a cigarette wedged in the hole, pointing vertically, and then attempted to balance another one on top of that, and so on. Quite a challenge actually, I never made it further than one on top of another.

I remember a book by Julian Barnes in which someone lies on her back and smokes a cigarette all the way down without tapping it out, so that a thin grey column of ash is balanced perilously on top of her lips. She then reveals that she had stuck a hairpin down the length of the cigarette before lighting it to hold it together. If I knew how to smoke, I'd use that trick to impress girls.

[BM] Surely there must be some evening class you can go to.

For some reason I thought BM was going to give us the low-down on the ping-pong ball scene from Priscilla Queen Of The Desert. Its a great trick for impressing the boys...

Oh how I laughed... What's the trick? It's dead easy!

After running in the high teens and low twenties, the weather has turned = 36°C as I type. Urrgh. Don't get me wrong, I am happy with that - it's tonight I'm worried about.

That's interesting, here on the east end of the US we've had the opposite problem - High of 60ºF and low of 30 one day, high of 30 and snow the very next day.

[BtD] Oh, if only I knew the low-down on that...
[Dujon] Where do you live?

It's a cracking day here in the mid-south of dear old Blighty... an azure blue sky, fluffy while cloudy things and lots of smiley faces .. especially on rugby fans.. Kinda makes me glad to be alive.

Lovely day here in mid UK too. I wonder what Edinburgh will be like?

According to my guest from that fine city, it's been warmer and drier than Manchester. Though that doesn't surprise me.

rab] Good. I shall bring mt Bermuda kilt!

for mt read my.

Not only was the weather good here but the wife (and mother of three) left on Friday for a weekend of shopping with some of her friends, returning after tea today. Just a quick tidy up half hour before she arrived...a free weekend of no 'lists of thing-to-do', no 'we can't sit around here all day', just coke,crisps, playstation and the occasional nappy...easy.

Meanwhile over at Celebrity MC mini league Chalky takes over from DrQ at No 1, and staight in at No3 is the mysterious x_sugarbabe_x

[Inkspot] Lovely! I managed to grab about three hours of my own company this afternoon. I built a log fire and sprawled in front of the TV. Grand.
Re: Celebdaq ... yes, that daughter of mine is going to be SO smug when she sees how well she's performing. Strangely enough - I put all my pounds on the same person as she did after divi-time last Friday .. and today she has somehow managed to get ahead of me. Beginner's luck I say.

Inkspot] Sounds like you should make her a list with: 1.leave me alone Please ! and 2. Stop making me lists and: 3. realise that not only CAN he sit around all day and do nothing, but he finds it remarkably therapeutic.

[To all Radio4 listeners] 1830 GMT tonight is the first of the new series of ISIHaC from Winchester. I'm hoping to hear myself laughing.

Chalky]Three hours in a single afternoon? to yourself? Now that's sounds wonderful, I'll exchange you that for my Tom the toddler ("Read books daddy", "Do puzzle daddy", "Train track...", "Play cars...")The other two being 9 and 12 can be left to their own devices.

On second thoughts ignore that, I wouldn't change him for anything...
st d] It's not the just lists but the silent looks, perhaps Chalky could give some insight ;)

Why are there only two of us playing Mornington Crescent? :(

[Inkspot] Doubt if I can share any insights, not knowing if the lists/silent looks are aimed at your role as a husband [B&Q, DIY, manly household chores] or father [guidance & gainful occupation of young things]. To be honest, I'm a fan of the school of 'sitting round all day at home with the TV/video/DVD/Playstation/CDplayer/piano/PC/Internet' especially when there's little ink smudges to look after.
Children actually enjoy sharing stay-at-home-stuff with relaxed adults.
I think there's far too much - [oh dear - high horse alert] - "Oh yah, to develop their full potential, little Venetia and young Felix are always occupied with ballet, moderndance, jazz/tap dancing, drama, horseriding, t'ai chi, judo, karate, kick boxing, cordon bleu vegetarian cookery, screen printing, blah-de-blah classes and isn't my 4-wheel drive so handy for running them around in?" Bollocks to all that. As long as they walk regularly, go swimming as often as possible, and actually spend some time with their parents, they usually turn out OK.
[Ahem - that is, provided their parent/parents are normal :-)]

Hurrah! A non-neurotic parenting-type! Any room on that horse for the rest of us?

Maybe they've got us on ignore...