[rab] hooray that your job problems got sorted out - I'm going through a bit of a 'mare with *a certain well known UK based supermarket chain*, oddly enough, about contracts. I'm still on one contract, even though I should be on a higher one as I do more hours a week than that. grr. still, at least the christmas carols over the PA haven't started yet.
[Ella] No, no, no, no, no. Of course not. Nothing to be worried about at all. Perfectly normal group of people here. No risk, no danger. Nothing to worry about. No need to worry about a thing. Just ignore rab. Don't worry about a thing.
*leaves trail of dust as she leaves Mornington Cresent at high speed* :-)
Ella
Silly girl, doesn't she know she's in spoon? Running away won't fix that ...
it's gone awful quiet on here, so I'm going to borrow a technique from a message board I used to frequent. So, what is everyone listening to?
One side of a colleague's telephone conversation and the annoyingly-pitched fan in my laptop. In the distance is the quiet, repetitive shhh-clunk of a digital copying machine...
office sounds
The hum and grind of the printer trying to staple 400 documents, the tap of keyboards, and the intermittent muttered oaths and curses of colleagues as they get on with their day-to-day work. And I'm hoping that sometime soon, one of them is going to ask me if I want any lunch fetching from the supermarket... some hope.
I'm listening to PMQT. Rock on!
A presentation given by students at a posh 'do' at the top of Canary Wharf tower :) Nobody's asking any questions.
My colleague, typing. And the distant waft of Christmas CDs from the adjacent office.
An episode of the Simpsons I've got on the DVD player. (The joys of working at home.)
(aka penelope)
This is to let you know that on Monday December 13th there will be a special recording at the Cochrane Theatre, Southampton Row, London WC1 (nearest tube: Holborn) of a show starring the cast of "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue" and entitled "Hamish & Dougal's Hogmanay Special", which is due to transmit on Radio 4 on New Year's Eve from 11.30pm till Midnight.
Regular listeners to "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue" will know of Hamish and Dougal from their frequent appearances in the 'Sound Charades' round. Radio 4 have already broadcast two series featuring Hamish & Dougal, starring Barry Cryer and Graeme Garden in the title roles, with Alison Steadman playing their housekeeper Mrs Naughtie, and Jeremy Hardy playing the local laird.
This one-off special show will include the regular cast, with appearances from Humphrey Lyttelton, Tim Brooke-Taylor, Sandi Toksvig and Colin Sell, with some additional surprise guests. The show starts recording at 7.30pm, with doors opening at 7pm.
The Cochrane is not a large theatre (there are just 300 seats available) so you'll need to act soon to secure a ticket. The tickets cost £8 each and are obtainable from the theatre's box office on 020 7269 1606. Tickets will be on sale from today (Wednesday 1st December) From 1.30pm and thereafter the box office is open from 10am-6pm Monday to Friday, and 12pm-3pm on Saturday and Sunday. If the tickets have not sold out by the send of the week we will put them on sale to the general public. The next series of 'I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue' starts transmitting on Radio 4 on Monday 6th December at 6.30pm, with a repeat on the following Sunday at 12.04pm. It runs for six weeks including a 'Best Of' programme from the past year. Recordings of the Spring Series of the show in 2005 will probably take place in May or June, so expect notification of these recordings in March or April.
Regular listeners to "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue" will know of Hamish and Dougal from their frequent appearances in the 'Sound Charades' round. Radio 4 have already broadcast two series featuring Hamish & Dougal, starring Barry Cryer and Graeme Garden in the title roles, with Alison Steadman playing their housekeeper Mrs Naughtie, and Jeremy Hardy playing the local laird.
This one-off special show will include the regular cast, with appearances from Humphrey Lyttelton, Tim Brooke-Taylor, Sandi Toksvig and Colin Sell, with some additional surprise guests. The show starts recording at 7.30pm, with doors opening at 7pm.
The Cochrane is not a large theatre (there are just 300 seats available) so you'll need to act soon to secure a ticket. The tickets cost £8 each and are obtainable from the theatre's box office on 020 7269 1606. Tickets will be on sale from today (Wednesday 1st December) From 1.30pm and thereafter the box office is open from 10am-6pm Monday to Friday, and 12pm-3pm on Saturday and Sunday. If the tickets have not sold out by the send of the week we will put them on sale to the general public. The next series of 'I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue' starts transmitting on Radio 4 on Monday 6th December at 6.30pm, with a repeat on the following Sunday at 12.04pm. It runs for six weeks including a 'Best Of' programme from the past year. Recordings of the Spring Series of the show in 2005 will probably take place in May or June, so expect notification of these recordings in March or April.
La musica
nights] You've asked this before. And the answer is 1) my stomach gurgling and 2) Lemon Jelly.
listening
OK - this is WAY later than you asked the question - but I am currently listening to a prog on BBC1 about Brian Wilson [Beach Boys] and Pet Sounds.
It's actually quite interesting.
[Chalky] If I didn't know better, I'd think you were damning with faint praise. As it happens, I'd meant to watch that but I completely forgot.
[tuj] have I? oopsie. good choice though. I personally am listening to winter chill 2003, kind of appropriate for such a cold day.
This morning, I am mostly listening to my Christmas Pan Pipes CD, which will no doubt cause a great deal of annoyance to anyone in the immediate vicinity.
[Darren] Shame you missed it :-)
Does anyone fancy revisiting Animal/Vegetable/Mineral/Abstract?
Baa
Am I alone in not appreciating Pet Sounds? Yes there is the odd good track but as an album it's rather lacking I find.
I'm bored...
Why does work seem sooo unappealing on some days? The only music I have on my hard drive is The The's Soul Mining album... or I suppose I could tune into Xfm or Radio 4 online and tell anyone who doesn't like it to butt out... Or maybe I could just leave a full hour and a half before I actually should to head for Park Lane and a photoshoot I'm to direct. Heheheh.
I wish I still lived in London
[pen] go for xfm, I'll appreciate it. mainly because I miss it from those lovely days when I lived in London.
[chalky] yes please, if memory serves that one's full of hilarity, and fibre.
[chalky] yes please, if memory serves that one's full of hilarity, and fibre.
I wish I lived in London
[nights] Someone else who loves London! People think I'm mad when I say I'd like to live there.
London
(Raak) Depends where you are at the moment. For my part, I would find a small to medium sized town a living death, however traffic-free it were, but it suits some people, I'm sure.
I am now, to the utter horror of the rest of the office, enjoying Nigel Ogden's Wurlitzer Christmas.
[UK] you're just like my Dad. He has asked me for, in all seriousness (I think - it was on the phone), The Organist Entertains on CD for christmas. aaaaargh.
[Raak, anyone that'll listen] I really miss London at the moment - things to do that aren't uni, work or pub!
[Raak, anyone that'll listen] I really miss London at the moment - things to do that aren't uni, work or pub!
[Rosie] I'm in Norwich, which is as you describe. I have to go to Cambridge or London for proper culture.
[nights] Where are you at the moment?
[Raak] If you've been in Norwich more than a year or two and it still doesn't have any culture, it's probably your own fault. If the people who like a certain thing always go to some other place to get it, they perpetuate the situation in which there's a market for that thing in that other place and none in the place they come from. Therefore, people in Norwich who like a certain kind of culture should never leave it, and they'll thereby coerce the place into being the sort of place they like to be in.
(It also helps if you kill off everyone who actively opposes the sort of thing you like.)
What's
a wurlitzer, Uncle Korky? It sounds amusing.
Wurlitzer
Is it animal, vegetable, mineral, or abstract? Or maybe a high-speed land vehicle?
I believe a Wurlitzer is a specialised piece of plumbing equipment manufactured from pig trotters using a proprietary process in certain secretive factories in the former East Germany. Highly sought after by installers of bidets, the common Wurlitzer can only be purchased if the buyer is recommended to the vendor by at least two other customers and after placing a bond of thirteen Austrian schillings in a specific numbered Swiss bank account.
It became fashionable as a jazz instrument in the Berlin salons of the 1920s, because of its resolutely unmelodious nature in all but the most skilled of hands (just like, say, the double bass) but mostly because it could be eaten in extremity (very much unlike, say, the double bass).
Apple Ogies
We apologies for this sudden outbreak of lying in what is usually a much more truth-inclined space.
Oh well.
Nonsense. Utter tosh! I tell you it's an instrument consisting of a broad, flat cylinder with holes drilled radially into it at regular intervals, affixed to a length of string to its center. It's also cunningly made with vanes set into it so that it will spin when swung round by its cord, with the result that it produces a most harmonious tone. It got its name when its first purchaser, speaking to a somewhat deaf salesman, said "I'll certainly enjoy showing my friends this, er... how do you say it?" To which the salesman, thinking he had been asked "how do you play it?", replied: "Whirl it, sir."
sorry, i'd groan, but...
Aargghh!
Can someone please cuff Dan around the ears.
Edible instruments
(Dunx) A double bass is probably the most edible of all instruments, being almost entirely wood. Saw it up, pulp it and serve it as a slurry with hot milk and demerara sugar, and you have the perfect high-fibre breakfast cereal. In one end and out the other, unchanged, giving the possibility of recycling after suitable purification.
Edible instruments II
[Rosie] I think you'll need to figure out how to strip away the strings during the automated production line of your perfect breakfast cereal. Otherwise people halfway across the world may think it's a brilliant idea.
Well, it's a...
I'm wondering what treats might be on Nigel Ogden's Wurlitzer Christmas. In a Persian Christmas Supermarket? In A Christmas Monastery Garden? Oh, I Do Like To Be Beside The Christmas Seaside?
Is it time to start the 'Bah! Humbug! I hate Christmas!' discussion yet?
it is most certainly time to start the "I hate Christmas" discussion (well apart from the religious meaning, but that's another story). point one - explosion in heart-rending charity adverts. I really don't like them.
[Raak] beautiful Bath still - however it's probably more to do with the fact that I have a rather large amount of work at the moment, and I don't have time for anything other than work, uni or pub. sorry, I think I was in a really crap mood when I posted that one.
[Raak] beautiful Bath still - however it's probably more to do with the fact that I have a rather large amount of work at the moment, and I don't have time for anything other than work, uni or pub. sorry, I think I was in a really crap mood when I posted that one.
humbugs
[penelope] Move here, you'll miss it entirely, but you'll have to put up with the azaan five times a day :-)
(miss Christmas, that was)
I had too
Sorry, I'm a little excitable today... hehehe...
Not only but also
Oh, and are we going to play Animal/Vegetable/Mineral/Abstract? If s, can we do some sort of colourful variant?
[Tuj] How about Animal/Vegetable/Mineral/Abstract or any combination thereof PLUS the colour[s] of said 'object'. Am I taking you too literally?
Chalky] Pass... I just like the colours a lot and want to reward rab's endeavour by having them used in lots of games. Plus it might spawn some new hybrid game, which is always good!
[Tuj] Have you ever noticed that if you search for pretty much any word in Google image search, there is a Toothpaste for Dinner cartoon which includes it?
ISIHAC
so, what did we all think of the new ISIHAC? I didn't hear it last night, I was on the bus (which crashed into another bus, but that's for a later date when I have more time), but I have four hours of research ahead of me later so I'll pull it up on 'listen again'.
[nights] Pretty good, as always. The new guest, Linda someone-or-other, was fine.
dodgy lines
Between the Lines seems to have come up with some odd colours, if in doubt the altenative web colours are;
< font color= “#800000” > for Bakerloo
< font color= “#FF6347” > for Central
< font color= “#FFFF00” > for Circle
< font color=> “#32CD32” for District
< font color= “#DEB887” for East London
< font color= ” #FF00FF” > for Hammersmith and City
< font color= “#C0C0C0” > for Jubilee
< font color= “#BA55D3” > for Metropolitan
< font color= “#191970” > for Northern
< font color= “#4169E1” > for Piccadily
< font color= “#1E90FF” > for Victoria
< font color= “#B0E0E6” > for Waterloo and City
< font color= “#8DBC8F” > for Docklands Light Railway
< font color= “#6B8E23” > for National Rail
< font color= “#800000” > for Bakerloo
< font color= “#FF6347” > for Central
< font color= “#FFFF00” > for Circle
< font color=> “#32CD32” for District
< font color= “#DEB887” for East London
< font color= ” #FF00FF” > for Hammersmith and City
< font color= “#C0C0C0” > for Jubilee
< font color= “#BA55D3” > for Metropolitan
< font color= “#191970” > for Northern
< font color= “#4169E1” > for Piccadily
< font color= “#1E90FF” > for Victoria
< font color= “#B0E0E6” > for Waterloo and City
< font color= “#8DBC8F” > for Docklands Light Railway
< font color= “#6B8E23” > for National Rail
It's all very pretty, dear Inkspot, and forgive my thickitude, but what exactly is the reason/point/aim?
[Chalky] I'm not clear what the Between the Lines game is supposed to be, really, but I'm assuming it's MC where (a) your name colour has to match the stations you play, and (b) to switch lines, you need to use a station which actually lies on an intersection between them. So far, though, I don't think that's the way people have been playing it. Still, that (and my almost inevitable lack of grasp of the whole thing meaning these rules are totally useless) is what happens if you don't explain the rules at the top of the game properly.
Bad lines
The idea came from wishing to use the colourised name whatsit that rab has introduced in a game of MC. Then it came to me to use the colours of the lines from the Tube map. Unfortunately the new game slot stayed open (for what seemed like several days) and so the game idea festered.
While it was gnawing away, I wondered about stations like Canada Water and Sloane Square. Could these be incorporated into the stance? Keeping it as simple as possible, a colour for the player and in the text…. sounded good at the time, this may have been one idea too far.
While it was gnawing away, I wondered about stations like Canada Water and Sloane Square. Could these be incorporated into the stance? Keeping it as simple as possible, a colour for the player and in the text…. sounded good at the time, this may have been one idea too far.
There you have it a colourised experimental game. If play becomes fraught it will make way for something else. Is there a point? After watching Paul Burrel eat a kangaroo’s testicle … probably not.
Bad lines
*ahem* [cattily]
... passing through
Is it just me or is there an air of despondency in here? I was up and about quite early this am, popped in to have a look and moved swiftly on ...
I couldn't even think of a faux french line 5 for the limerick, diverted as I was by Korky's bream :-) Don't wanna play colours or tag, don't wanna tell lies or furcate, the current regurgitated cheddar is looking tricky, the consonants have lost their way ... oh dear oh dear oh dear. Ah well - at least I'm posting in here :-)
I couldn't even think of a faux french line 5 for the limerick, diverted as I was by Korky's bream :-) Don't wanna play colours or tag, don't wanna tell lies or furcate, the current regurgitated cheddar is looking tricky, the consonants have lost their way ... oh dear oh dear oh dear. Ah well - at least I'm posting in here :-)
[Chalks] You've put your finger on it for me. Stagnant limericks are usually easy to shift - I just write a crap last line, then start a new one, hoping others will follow with renewed vigour. I really think Lost Consonants has had it - time to say goodbye. The Colours Game is too complicated to work out for the time I have available to post at work, I'm not old enough to Furcate, and we've been too clever by half in the current regurgitation. I'm gonna go in there and play some crap moves to shift this constiptation. Hold tight... !
Poo
Tee hee, "crap moves to shift constipation" - what a lovely image, penelope. Chalky, I quite agree.
[chalky] I see what you mean, but then I like lying. it's good practise for in real life.
ISIHAC
Jack Dee will be the special guest for programmes 5 and 6 of the new series, coming from the Assembly Hall Theatre in Tunbridge Wells (10/1/05 and 17/1/05)
If anyone is going to be in the audience for those two, let me know as we could probably meet up. I couldn't get tickets myself, but I am nonetheless local.
giving a nod to ...
Penelope the Purgative
Rab the Agreeable
Nights the .. er .. seer and deceiver
and anyone else who has posted and brightened up this place :-)
Rab the Agreeable
Nights the .. er .. seer and deceiver
and anyone else who has posted and brightened up this place :-)
Previous post... I mean was in the audience for.
Deep and calming breaths
Chalky] Time to brighten things up... And I definitely agreed with pen on the consonants I'm afraid. And on the poop analogy...
If you need a new game, just go ahead and make one - could there be a better place (even for just an idea)?.
If you need a new game, just go ahead and make one - could there be a better place (even for just an idea)?.
OK, a touch over the top;
but I bet it got your attention!
Let my ice fingers close over your heart...
...let my drear mornings offer you no hope of sunshine to come. I shall not rest my snows nor my gloomy rains until torpor reigns in the Morniverse and nothing is but glumness, glumness everywhere. Hibernate, run from me, or try to endure me - you cannot prevent me nor the keening grey sorrow of the moods I offer.
[spirit] a popular phrase in my house... "oooo-kaaay..." (say it out loud, slightly like jim carrey *shudder*)
[chalky] thanks... I think. I do my best.
[chalky] thanks... I think. I do my best.
[Tuj] yes it did!
[The Spirit of Winter]
Bring on your frosts of spectre-grey, your frozen leaves and skies of dun! The weakening eye of day can never chill; for friendship doth not turn cold when that warm heart that beats deep within fires the furnace of goodwill. Thus shall this community seek the warmth of its homely hearth whilst the dregs of winter's spirit is humbled ...
[Chalky]OOOoooooOOOOh! Get you!
[spirit, chalky] take it OUTSIDE, both of you!
Furcational Adjournment
Is it time to grant it special status yet? I fancy an imposter's game, or summat...
I am outside.
Err.?
Hello!!!!
Hello to you too
I'm a bit worried. You're not the jasmine to which my wife took her secateurs a couple of days ago are you? If you are I shall have to have a cup of tea a Bex and a good lie down. Oh dear, oh dear . . .
Special (i.e. no) service
[Tuj] The SpecialStatus AddOn Pack (TM) has not yet been enabled, so, erm, no.
a little off topic (no change there, then) but thank God it's Friday. has everyone else had a shocking week or is it just me?
[nights] probably just you
Bah! I enjoyed that poetic exchange and would have happily crossed further swords with the 'spirit', teetering, as we were, on the brink of yet another 'Winter versus Summer Debate'.
So the follow-up disappointed somewhat, whilst bringing to mind Wot Dan Said in MCiOS a couple of weeks back [and I paraphrase] - anonymous posting by regulars is relatively harmless fun ... however, if the post is directed at a named person, perhaps it's fairer not to hide behind the cloak of anonymity?
*throws down gauntlet in the spirit of goodwill* :-)
[nights] it's not just you. blech.
[nights/flerdle] Definitly not just you two. Too.
Bob the dog! Good to see you :-)
[Chalks] Likewise! I've not been as apparent as usual over the last few months, but I am very much still here. New job going well – chickens still pecky – children still boingy.
I back Tuj for a game of impostors!
I back Tuj for a game of impostors!
Ok, then.
Do you want your gauntlet back?
Not dead but... dormant
rab] Well, assuming this Add On Pack (AOP) has resurrectional properties, I guess we can temporarily shuffle it below the line and go, with Bob the Dog's backing, for a game of imposters.
[Bob] welcome back!!
[rab] so what happened? I couldn't get in last night or all day today (that's trying via my home connection and up at university)
[everyone] glad it wasn't just me. last week of term, woo!
[rab] so what happened? I couldn't get in last night or all day today (that's trying via my home connection and up at university)
[everyone] glad it wasn't just me. last week of term, woo!
[nights] *Flattered* But I never left!
[bob] ah but doesn't flattery get me... no wait, get me somewhere... everywhere? sorry, it's rather late and I'm a bit tired and emotional at the moment... hello anyway.
racing frogs
Who wants to race frogs with me? I want a league but need to invite people! Try www.racingfrogs.org.....it's a level of maintenance just under playing Celebdaq. And probably designed for 14-year-olds. But shhh....
Food, food, food!
I think escargot is more my pace.
slurg on a lily pad
[ZK] My frog is in training, do you have a frog in each area.
On the weekend we went out and bought our Christmas tree. After I had put on the lights it was for the boys to hang the decorations on the tree. Francis, likes to let Owen know the benefits of being his big brother, as frequently as possible. Putting baubles on the tree he was able to put his extra height to advantage “…and another one up here, and this one can go near the top over here…”. Being the uneven handed dad I am I helped Owen put a couple at the same height to end that bit of squabbling. Which left Tom the toddler, who with a little bit of help was able to put the fairy on top and with the highest bauble. The finished tree looks wonderful.
I'd already done the racing frogs thing. They started making it more and more biased towards people buying the book and/or paying to enter the VIP room, by eg giving a "pike detector" to all those who'd paid. And it's... well, it's tedious, once the novelty wears off.
minibug
[rab] Might you be able to put a chevron on a tag in the limerick game?
[Projoy] Thanks for locating it... Netscape managed to render the page properly so I never saw the damage it caused on other browsers. Can you check it's properly fixed? Oh, and congratulations to Raak for discovering one of the bugs in the html checker. *fumbles in prize box* Here, have the 1995 copy of the Edinburgh and Lothians edition of "The Phone Book".
Yep, all fixed.
Frogs
Ooh, looks like very silly fun. Which pond are you in, ZK?
cute bear...
[rab] I like the bear...
[ZK] nice to see you again... obviously the Univesity of Birmingham doesn't give people enough work... :p
[ink] stop it, I'm missing my unstoppable family already at the moment, and you're not helping. Doesn't help that I'm so close to going home...
[ZK] nice to see you again... obviously the Univesity of Birmingham doesn't give people enough work... :p
[ink] stop it, I'm missing my unstoppable family already at the moment, and you're not helping. Doesn't help that I'm so close to going home...
[Breadmaster] Windymore Lake, I think. Tend to race in Fergal's Cove.
[nights] Thankyou *blushes* I'd like to give the University credit for my constant absenteeism, in fact it was my drama group and its criminal rehearsal-cum-social schedule, and my boyfriend, wot's been keeping me occupied. The University kept me busy a bit though :) Semester over?
[nights] Thankyou *blushes* I'd like to give the University credit for my constant absenteeism, in fact it was my drama group and its criminal rehearsal-cum-social schedule, and my boyfriend, wot's been keeping me occupied. The University kept me busy a bit though :) Semester over?
it's all getting a bit hectic...
Can you believe it - I had a dream last night in which - due to a horrible hairdressing mistake - my hair turned blonde. What a nightmare...
[pen] I think you'd look simply dashing as a blonde.
[ZK] teaching finishes tomorrow, thank God... although I'm going to be down here until december 23 working for *a certain well known UK based supermarket chain* because, let's face it, ALL students are poor and I need the overtime...
[ZK] teaching finishes tomorrow, thank God... although I'm going to be down here until december 23 working for *a certain well known UK based supermarket chain* because, let's face it, ALL students are poor and I need the overtime...
.. trying to attract rab's attention ..
hey rab - are you there?
[pen] No, don't go blonde - perhaps dark purple? That'll look good. [BtD] Gorgeous! [nights] hectic - just hectic. [rab] nice bear. [spirit of winter] Rum. [mince pie] *scoff*
Guess Who
Catching up with a thread from above... I'm up for an imposters game as well.
*burp*
oops - what I meant to say was...
Number of meals out in the past 18 hours - 2.
Number of meals out in the past 18 hours that the boss has paid for - 2
Mince pies - 1 (same as at 9am, nothing to add here)
Number of meals out in the past 18 hours - 2.
Number of meals out in the past 18 hours that the boss has paid for - 2
Mince pies - 1 (same as at 9am, nothing to add here)
Should I be expecting a P45 or an invitation to join the Directors of the company?
possibly both.
An invitation to join the Directors of the company in *what*?
Attended
[Chalky] No, I've been sent to Coventry. (Literally).
Furcating
rab] Any news on El Furco's special status? I tried to shuffle it 'neath the line for a while to free up space for (probably) an imposters' game, but it dint work... Coventry nice?
Romance?
It's On. It's Off. It's On again, but not for another three weeks... Time to call Emergency Boyfriend #1. *sigh*
[pen] (((((((((((((hug)))))))))))))) it'll work out for the best - whatever the hell THAT might be. this is my first Christmas working in retail as opposed to catering. I'm certainly NOT loving it.
Grrr to cold weather
I'm ill and God I wish I weren't. I know it's only coldy/fluey stuff (at least I think that's all it is, might get the Doc to give me some sympathy in the morning, or at least to tell me to bugger off from wasting their time) but it's that kind of "I know it's going to get worse before it gets better" thing going on. Time to go home and retreat under the duvet in front of the telly I think. Good luck, pen.
Sent to Coventry
[rab] Coventry is not far from me if you fancy a pint..?
Man 'Flu
[rab] If it's bad... go to bed. Keep hot. Drink plenty of fluids and sleep. Don't drag yourself around if you feel shitty, you only spread it around anyway!
[In other news] Thanks goodness for emergency boyfriends...
[In other news] Thanks goodness for emergency boyfriends...
Christmas Quiz
I've posted a Christmas Quiz if anyone's interested. It's also in Orange MC where there was another free game slot.
[heading in the blue box at the top]
Can you really post lonely hearts adverts?
lonely hearts are lonely for a reason...
[Knobbly] You can... although you risk attracting someone who thinks that Mornington Crescent is a fun thing to do. Is that really what you want?
[rab] fluids are the key, and not doing anything also helps, in my experience. [in other news] thanks to work I had trouble focusing by the end of my shift today *sob*
but what reason?
[Knobbly]Well, someone did before - last year, I think.
I do
[snorgle] 'twas Darren, if I recall.
I expect I'll be buggering off home shortly. The flu didn't come in the end; however, a (potentially nasty) ear infection did. The nice doctor gave me enough antibiotics to kill a horse and it seems to be clearing. Won't be until Christmas Eve till I get the full all-clear (and, with luck, internet access from home) so I'm not in the most joyful and triumphant mood just now. Heigh-ho.
*exits jingling bells*
Would ya believe it?!
Just found two cats abandoned at an empty council house. Called the RSPCA. They told me that they don't deal with abandoned cats! So much for their advertising campaign!
blimey
[UK] That's why the Cat Protection League exists. You should have someone locally who looks after them. Failing that, try the local paper for an appeal...
pussy cats
The Cats Protection League are usually more helpful - if you can get a local phone number, a real cat lover may come out and be willing to take them in. The RSPCA are usually hopeless, from what I've heard. At least with dogs, you can usually get the police to take them, I'm not sure about cats.
We are not amewsed
I went for them purely because we knew where the outgoing tenants went and I wanted them to go for a prosecution. Fortunately, one of my colleagues used to be an Animal Warden, and had the numbers of several RSPCA officers on her mobile. She called one of them and briefed him; he straight away got onto the outgoing tenants at their new address and got them to pick up the cats there and then in his prescence. Just goes to show it's not what you know, but who!
miow
Good job, UK!
More quizes
Cross posting
I take part in a couple of quizzes on-line and have created a testing ground group on MSN. If you like this one I will do another longer one next week. There are only two rules
1. only one answer per posting
2. no consecutive posting.
I take part in a couple of quizzes on-line and have created a testing ground group on MSN. If you like this one I will do another longer one next week. There are only two rules
1. only one answer per posting
2. no consecutive posting.
It's quiet..
in the morniverse! I think most people must be off doing Xmassy things.. I'm still in work, but will probably have a half day with boozing this pm.
who eat all the pies
Still working hard as ever at work, last day having a break till 4 January. The sausage rolls, coke and mince pies have arrived for lunch.
Ho hum...
Still working... will be tomorrow also... back in on 30th... bah!
ho ho ho
MMmm. chocolates, crisps, nibbles, wine..
Oh, and
not back in till January 10th. Yay! New Year in Dublin coming up..
Mincing
Mince pie in lieu of lunch, but a meeting at 1pm, so looks like I have to keep my work hat on for a couple more hours. After this, I'm not back in the office until 4th Jan :o)
bits to the grindstone
Still working normally today. Working from home (yeah, right) tomorrow, then off until 4th Jan including seeing the New Year in in Paris.
What holiday?
Working till 9pm today and tomorrow. Back at work on 27th every day till 3rd. I resisted the offer of overtime on Xmas day and Boxing day. Sob
Whee!
Mr BT's been and gone so I can now do this at home, kids. The engineer seemed very surprised that there was a line in situ already and he didn't actually need to do anything that couldn't have been done at the exchange. I've been trying to tell BT this for two months. Now, let's see if I can get that 75 quid back then, shall I?
Merry Christmas, One and All. I'll pop my head round the door from Edinburgh the next couple of days, before shooting down south to see the family. This would be Total Holiday if it weren't for the fact I should really apply for a permanent job that's come up and that has a deadline in January.
More Seasoning
Merry Christmas to all. The presents are wrapped. A mince pie and carrot have been left out, crossing my fingers for a seven o' clock lie in ;)
Over at Celebdaq, Celebrity Mornington Crescent itis a special congratulations to Christmas No1 DrQ.
It is also a sad farewell from CMC to long time Celebdaq player Chalky.
Over at Celebdaq, Celebrity Mornington Crescent itis a special congratulations to Christmas No1 DrQ.
It is also a sad farewell from CMC to long time Celebdaq player Chalky.
(Cross-posting) Merry Christmas, everyone!
Wishu
We wishu a merry Chrimulus. Pass the sherry, vicar.
...two front teeth
Seven was realistic but in the end we were woken up by Owen at just gone six. But it has been a good Christmas Day with lots of giving and receiving. Lord of the Rings extended box set, Monsterous Regiment, J J Cale - Anyway the Wind Blows - The Anthology, and best of all Brazil on DVD; No jumpers, no ties, no shirts for work. A very good Christmas indeed.
thank goodness that is over
Same as Inkspot - awoken at 6ish by excited eight year old. We had a non-traditional day, spending dinnertime at local Thai Boathouse restaurant (really good - highly recommended). We entertained guests in the evening with a buffet that no-one had any room for. Masses of pants and socks - surprisingly pleasant day!
wtf is apropos??
BEN OWNS
internet tourettes there? cuh. merry christmas everyone. we had a very sedate christmas which is most unlike us. back at university on the tenth, but home for a week then back at *a certain well-know UK based supermarket chain* on friday. and russian politics research in the meantime. oh, and make sure you watch tomb raider, which is on TV either tonight or tomorrow...
Yesterdays news
As a habit over Christmas I don't buy a newspaper and avoid the tv news, World War III could break out, I just would not know. The major concern is how many more days is this turkey going to last.
Arriving back from more drinks in time to see Mr Bean. I was knocked out of my revellry my the pictures from Sri Lanka on the ITV News. The incredible devastation of this Act of God, visited on so many thousands, has taken my own jollity of celebrating the birth of the Son of God seem hollow. Tonight I am restless, trying not to think.
projects underway
Wa-hey! For the first time in ages, and at the risk of appearing anti-social, I've had the chance to mooch about undisturbed at home, and in addition to a satisfyingly long walk in lovely winter sunshine this afternoon (the third such walk this holiday - I'm doing really well), I've got the printer set up ready to produce my masterpiece photos saved up from various trips this year. Cooooooool :o). I'm a bit frantic about going to a rather smart New Year party tomorrow night though - it necessitated the purchase of a velvet coat. Will report back with results. How many people, when pissed, will think that I'm Lisa Tarbuck? Guesses please!
Tarbyness
[pen] Cultivate a very slight Scouse accent and you'll be set.
being as noone else has said it, happy new year. hope 2005 is everything everyone wants it to be.
omigod... I didn't get recognised at all! The party was just too posh and too arty for anyone to have even watched ITV!
And a Happy New Year to you lot too! :o)
5
To all a happy new year!
0things
I'm pretty sure I typed "05" in my first Apropos... who stole it?
wasn't me.
[Tuj] I ain't not stolen nuffink ;o)
boo!
Catch me if you can!
mmmmmm...what...? noisey youngsters!
put the kettle on
The office is quiet, everyone seems to be in shock at being back at work. Thankfully very few emails.
Cute Teddy
Am I right in thinking that the little Teddy currently making an appearance top left of the Welcome (Menu) Page originally exhibited him~(or indeed her~)self on Rick's Beer powereed MC site of blessèd memory ? Or am I befuddled ? Happy New Year BTW.
I haven't had any email since about december 23. I love university vacations.
On a sidenote, happy birthday me...
On a sidenote, happy birthday me...
HBTY
HBTY
HBDN
HBTY
HBTY
HBDN
HBTY
[nights] Happy Biirthday! I suppose that makes you ancient, like the rest of us, now?
[pen] shut up shut up shut up. I'm only 20.
[nights] *splits ancient sides laughing and loses dentures* I'm forty this year, you young fool. I'm still not old!
[pen] and with an attitude like that, you never will be. more alcohol!!
XL-ent
[pen] No, at 40 you are still a youngster! (Well I am anyway).
[Boolbar] I know I'm still young - I've just installed broadband at home and only had to shout at one technical helpdesk person. I tried the old trick, calling again in the hope of talking to another techie, and it worked. This one knew what I was talking about and helped me install the right modem drivers. Only problem is, I have to sit on the bottom step of the stairs so that all the cables reach. The plan is to go wireless too, as both my flatmate and I want broadband on our laptops. At this rate, I'm going to have a house full of spaghetti.
Bloody hell it's fast :o)
Warning, team!
I'm migrating to a new ISP. This will mean new IP addresses, and so a longer downtime than the last change, because DNS will have to be changed. Should be 2 days or so, and not for a couple of weeks.
Yule never believe it.
Happy New Year to you all. I've had an, um, interesting Festive Period. Some of it is fairly standard seasonal stuff, such as most of the railway notwork being switched off for the duration of the holiday season, entailing a couple of hundred passengers all having to disembark at Leamington Spa and then proceed through a single set of double doors to watch buses hang around outside the station for a few minutes with doors resolutely closed before then departing, empty, into the sunset. The rest, however, is less so and I hope you excuse my indulgence of reporting it here, especially when we've been reminded of the true meaning of the word 'disaster' the last few days.
The plan was to have a quiet couple of days with the immediate family at my brother's house, taking a short trip down the road to have lunch with my Grandparents, Uncle and Aunt. To begin with, I was unsure as to whether I'd be able to go down south as my doctor had muttered something about the possibility of needing some mildly urgent surgery if the drugs she gave me didn't do what they were supposed to do. Luckily, the drugs did and I very nearly managed to avoid hospitals for the duration.
Unfortunately, Grandma was admitted a few days before Christmas, needing (I believe) a minor repair to her leg. So we went and chatted to her, and she seemed ok, if a little pissed off and bored. (This exacerbated by the fact that the women's magazines in the hospital shop were deemed by her 'pornographic'. She has a point.) I presented her with a gift of stationery that she had asked for, presumably so she could continue to compose her wacky free-form-jazz letters from time to time, which I said I enjoyed receiving (which much is true).
We then ambled across to her house where Grandad and the Aunt and Uncle were in situ for the second (of three) Christmas meals. This was all very jolly: Grandad's not entirely compos-mentis these days, but still tells a funny story or two. Unfortunately we had to break up the party atmosphere by taking him to a care home (he's not compos-mentis enough to be able to look after himself when Grandma's away). I can't say I felt entirely at ease with all the incumbents of the institution, but I suppose that's the way these places are. And I'm sure Grandad knows how to fend off the advances of dotty old ladies. Anyway, apart from some hoo-hah about medication and managing to kill a kamikaze deer that ran into the car on the way, this all passed off smoothly. We all, apart from my father (who was driving) slept in the car on the way home.
Understandably, Dad needs an early night. And what does he do, but trip on the stair leading into the bathroom and need taking to Casualty? He returns two hours later with his foot in plaster and hobbling about on crutches. To add excitement to the proceedings, my brother lives in a Victorian house where the loo is downstairs and the sleeping quarters up...
I learnt today that sadly, I shall not be receiving any more of Grandma's trademark letters on account of her passing away this morning. I'm told it happened as quickly and as peacefully as one can hope for once they realised the treatment she was on wasn't working and there was nothing more that could be done.
[rab] I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother.
[rab] likewise, my condolences on losing your grandma. my thoughts are with you at what I know is a really difficult time.
[rab] aww - hope she had a wonderful life. I really loved all three of my grandmothers [don't ask!] and they've all gone now and although they appear in my dreams on a regular basis, I miss them dreadfully.
[rab] Sorry to hear about that. I, too, have lost both my grandmothers but I only ever knew one of them. Still, one can't wind back the clock without being literal about it.
[rab] All sympathies extended. I lost a grandparent for the first time at the end of last summer, and it knocks you flat to think that someone who has had such an effect on your life and who you are has gone.
[rab] I hope Grandpa is going to be OK. Best wishes to you and your family after what sounds like a glum Christmas.
ISP move
Coo, new ISP is impressive. Migration is booked for the 13th, and they've already given me my IP addresses. This means that I can, in theory, set it all up to fail over fairly gracefully.
Crap, perhaps I should read the recent moves before posting. My condolences as well, Rab.
[rab] Might I add my commiseration to those already expressed? Regrettably most of us have to experience such events at some stage of our lives.
On a brighter note, your father must have received wonderful service at the hospital. If you had that problem here (at least in New South Wales) I'd lay odds on a minimum five hour turnaround and more likely eight. Some ten years or so ago I had a "bit of a turn" and was carted off to my local hospital by ambulance; the ambos weren't sure whether it was a heart thing or not. I lay in the A&E on a stretcher bed for five hours before a doctor saw me. This was a weekday afternoon, not the weekend. As best I can gather from the press the situation is much worse these days. So, congratulations to your health department and your local doctors.
I hope your grandfather is found decent long term care and that your father has a short recuperation.
On a brighter note, your father must have received wonderful service at the hospital. If you had that problem here (at least in New South Wales) I'd lay odds on a minimum five hour turnaround and more likely eight. Some ten years or so ago I had a "bit of a turn" and was carted off to my local hospital by ambulance; the ambos weren't sure whether it was a heart thing or not. I lay in the A&E on a stretcher bed for five hours before a doctor saw me. This was a weekday afternoon, not the weekend. As best I can gather from the press the situation is much worse these days. So, congratulations to your health department and your local doctors.
I hope your grandfather is found decent long term care and that your father has a short recuperation.
Tx
Thanks, all. [Nik] Which ISP is that. I'm looking at getting adsl, but am a bit befuddled by the myriad of resellings of the same package.
runs in late and adds another condolence to the pile
I'm moving to Zen as they've long held a reputation similar to Nildram, but are currently a lot cheaper (only £1 less on the basic unmetered 512kbps package, but with free static IP blocks, where Nildram charge £3.50 for a single IP then £5.88 for a block of 8). The price difference wasn't enough to move, but Nildram's stability has been shocking for the last few months. It might be worth you checking out ADSLGuide - look at the 'fastest ISPs' chart, then poke around the forums for some of those ISPs.
Suspect packages
I don't have any flashy requirements (like fixed IP, or the need for decent upstream speeds or even email/webspace) so what I can't decide is whether a basic package whose only limitation that might affect me would be a bandwidth cap of something like 1 or 2 Gb a month, or if it's worth the extra few quid a month for an uncapped service. I don't do any internet gaming, download movies or whatever. The only big downloads I do are new software packages (I'm not doing anymore OS updates since the last one killed my laptop for a bit). I guess the question I ask is, how much bandwidth does a fairly normal amount of web browsing and the odd bit of ssh and scping actually consume?
Oh, and the other issue, of course, is that my only computer is a Mac, so a Mac-aware (if not outright friendly) ISP would be a bonus. In any case, I'll want to purchase an ethernet modem that's compatible with my wireless box.
General surfing doesn't use much - I tend not to transfer more than 1-2GB *total*, running the web and email servers on top, and I use BitTorrent every now and again. As for atypical system support, I've no idea who does what well, although I would expect companies like Zen and Nildram to be better than volume providers like AOL and Wannado.
Straightness
So, let's get this straight, even running a web server you use less than 2Gb a month?
From the Nildram access stats, "Total time on-line was 40 days 3:12:56s, during which time 2.206 GB were transferred." - this was the connection that went squiffy over christmas. It hasn't noticed me being dis/connected since then. I believe the 'transferred' figure includes uploads as well as downloads, but can't be sure. Most providers cap based on downloads and ignore uploads anyway. And let's face it, it's not a very busy web server (mostly text, which is all compressed for transfer).
On the other hand, er: 'You made 2 connections during October. Total time on-line was 17 days 23:28:28s, during which time 9.990 GB were transferred.' and 'You made 1 connections during September. Total time on-line was 38 days 4:43s, during which time 4.784 GB were transferred.' I was a very heavy BitTorrent user around that time, though.
broken link
[Nik] Tried Adsl Guide just the site I needed back in September ;^)
Limerickers
Please don't take offence because you know I love you all dearly and all that boll*cks - but The Limerick Game - gah!
Proper names should have Capital Letters
The first line should begin with a Capital letter
There's too much inconsequential nattering which breaks the flow
Finally - do we have to go to the far end of a fart every time something remotely 'welsh' is mentioned?
:-) :-) :-)
Proper names should have Capital Letters
The first line should begin with a Capital letter
There's too much inconsequential nattering which breaks the flow
Finally - do we have to go to the far end of a fart every time something remotely 'welsh' is mentioned?
:-) :-) :-)
< mode=sarcastic > and yes, there really is a Chat Game on this server - you're reading it now < /s>
oo-er
Methinks I got out of bed the wrong side this morning.
[Chalky] Well, at least it only took you two minutes to notice...! :-)
[Incle Korks] I've had three cups of tea, so feel a bit better now. :-)
Chalky]
I agree, but I couldn't resist the limerick line.
also agreed, and I know I'm quite an offender. I promise to try and limerick things that make sense and scan, and use capital letters.
Pants
Grrr... slightly annoyed with my ex-funding body, who've quite reasonably asked for a report on what their money was spent on. Unfortunately, the covering letter of their request directed me to a webpage containing the wrong set of guidance notes. Although these were sufficiently similar to make sense in the context of the rest of the documentation, the differences are enough to require a further heavy editing session. I so wanted this finished, like, last year. Fucktards.
[rab] if it's any consolation, I'm currently putting together my section of a presentation on corruption under the Brezhnev regime in the soviet union. I had a text message while I was at work earlier from one of the group. "Hi (nights), hope you're getting on OK. I've been talking to (someone else), and apparently our presentation has to be quite analytical, so could you try and do that? thanks! see you tomorrow!".
So instead of being in bed at the moment, I'm sat in front of word trying to pull analysis from a rather dark place. gaaaah. (dies.)
So instead of being in bed at the moment, I'm sat in front of word trying to pull analysis from a rather dark place. gaaaah. (dies.)
The Incredibles
A turbulent day with Prince Harry still front page (good for the celebdaq shares), Busted are splitting unfortunately - McFly are sticking it out, Jackie Stallone must be shown the door of the BB House (John to stay). MC5 returns.
yes, hooray MC5 is back in my life. I was thinking that it was telewest being their usually competent selves.
It took until Sunday evening for MC5 to reappear on my interwebnet thingy ... but nice to see it again :o)
ooooh
yay - it's taken 'til around now for it to appear on my screen aswell. Which gives me the opportunity to 'pologise to Rosie in particular for the 'far end of a fart .... anything remotely welsh' remark which looked much more vehement on screen than was intended.
Cambrian flatus
(Chalky) Vehemence not detected. But you might have used a capital "W". :-)
Since youy mentioned the Welsh...
Just a suggestion (and I know it won't appeal to everyone) for a short game... The gauntlet has been thrown down in the latest Doctor Who Magazine, inviting readers to contribute to a sort of 'Welsh Film Club' (only using existing Doctor Who story titles as source material), to celebrate the filming of the new series in the valleys. Now, this is the sort of thing that I know we can do well. Anyone interested? The two examples provided were The Swansea Devils and Powys of the Daleks.
MCISP5
Is it just me, or is MC5 (and angrycake.com in general) responding more quickly with this new ISP? The time to move had apparently arrived a long time ago - everything about this new ISP is an improvement. And look, the old one has just charged me for the coming month! Gah!
Speedy
Yes, it does seem faster. The Furcation Game seems to appear almost immediately, whereas I'm sure it was always a bit sluggish before.
Welsh Film Club
(Uncle K) I think it's been done on ISIHAC. But anyway, there's Bridge over the River Wye.
WFC
I forgot. It stars Gwynedd Paltrow.
[Rosie] The drawback, though, is that you can't use general film / TV title as your source material - it's Doctor Who stories only.
Wales...
The Curse/Monster of Pen-y-fan
WFC
The Abominable Snowdon
[Nik/rab] For me, MC5 seems extremely slow. It's taking up to 30 seconds to respond each time.
Speedster
[Nik/rab] Not really a noticeable difference here, but maybe 5,000 miles of perspective flattens the diffs out.
Perhaps even...
The Harlech Invasion of Earth
[Darren] Given that the server is now routed via a different ISP, the problems you had last year, and the lack of serious complaint from anyone else, I'd still (unhelpfully, I admit) lay the fault at the door of your ISP, or some route near to you. Do you have problems with other sites?
[Nik] No, no problems with other sites, although MC5 seems to be running alright now. It probably is my ISP.
Storiâu Meddyg Pwy
(Uncle K) OK. So I'm sure you can translate the above.:-)
Mae bronnau ardderchog da hi.
And that.
erm...
[Rosie, Darren] I've tried a number of online translation services... with little luck. Can't work out your first word, Rosie, and I'm completely stumped on Darren's!
time and space
[UK] When is Dr Who scheduled for screening? I am looking forward to the series, especially on the special effects. Children's tv drama has a very low budget compared other areas. But if it is being made by the Drama dept the budget will be there but not the expertise to make good children's tv, afterall that should be the target audience not us Big People.
[Rosie] Aha - cracked yours, now. Obvious, really, in retrospect...
[Darren] Yours seems to come out as... He is being breasts excellent good she?!
[Inkspot] No formal announcement has been made as yet, but the smart money's on Easter Saturday. This is, of course, typical. I wait sixteen years - I mean, sixteen years - for a new series of Doctor Who, and I'm going to be out of the country when the first episode airs!
[Darren] Yours seems to come out as... He is being breasts excellent good she?!
[Inkspot] No formal announcement has been made as yet, but the smart money's on Easter Saturday. This is, of course, typical. I wait sixteen years - I mean, sixteen years - for a new series of Doctor Who, and I'm going to be out of the country when the first episode airs!
Designer baggage
I am, perhaps, the only person who ever actually reads the terms and conditions of low-cost air carriers when making a booking. Occasionally it's worth it. I note that one airline says:
We are not liable for the replacement cost of designer baggage which in itself is valuable and inappropriate to be carried by a low cost airlineAmusingly, designer baggage is defined as
baggage which bears a logo of a so-called designer manufacturer and is sold at inflated prices.
bagging
[rab]They sound kind of bitter, don't they?
Cambrian jugs
(Darren) Your example doesn't look grammatical to me and I wonder who put it together. Da means good, but ardderchog means wonderful, excellent etc and you wouldn't use both together. I suspect it should read mae bronnau ardderchog genni hi, literally, "there is (are) breasts wonderful with her". There's no verb "to have" in Welsh. The word genni is a conjugated part of gan, "with", and its ending means you can omit the pronoun it refers to, hi, in this case, and most people would, certainly in conversation.
I wonder what would happen if you checked in luggage in black bin liners - which are presumably appropriate for travel on a low cost carrier....
(rab, pen) It's a bit like a notice on the door of a pub, saying "No suits, ties or dresses - this is a rough house". An amazing admission.
[Rosie] I've shown it to you before. It comes from an old Welsh-English phrase book, the translation for which it claims is "She has excellent breasts." Quite why they thought that would be a useful phrase I'm not sure.
Wow, all this time and nobody posted a response to that.
Welcome back
Thanks, Nik. You can now go and get some sleep.
Sleeping at a time like this
As if!
hello Nik
jolly good work :-)
I think spoken Welsh is a truly beautiful sound
I think spoken Welsh is a truly beautiful sound
General hellos and thanks to Nik
Well, just before I disappear to bed, about time I posted my first hello on MC5. My nanny corporate firewall/websense blocks this site out as it's a "game" site, apparently. Although in which sense of the word, I'm not sure. (And nary a mention of the fact it contains breasts.)
Breasts? Where? Whose?
Bronnau fel bryniau Eryri
er . . . that's "breasts like the hills of Snowdonia". Probably a quotation. (Darren) I remember your phrase-book quote from MCpants days. It would probably be OK conversationally. My father's first language was Welsh and I picked up a lot from him, and from many other people, but I could hardly be called an authority. Part of what I know has been deliberately learnt but quite a lot is instinctive. My English speech is quite London.
Huzzah
Nice to see the old place back. Thanks for your hard work, Nik.
[Botherer] On the "List of Things To Do (Urgent)" is a Stealth Mode where all mentions of the word "game" are obscured. This might be useful in a workplace environment.
'G'morning!
Nice to see everyone here. Coffee, Nik?
Welsh speakers
One of the nuggets from ploughing through LoTR extended remix (and brilliant it was to) was the Elvish languages Sindarin is based on Welsh.
Good to see things back up again. Ace going Nik.
Good to see things back up again. Ace going Nik.
go nik, yaaaay, etc. nice job. mc5 is back in my life! *sighs contentedly*
I agree with whoever said that welsh is a lovely spoken language - my Dad doesn't. so for an april fools I tuned all of the stations on his car radio to BBCymru. they were still there a week later! and then he glued all of my post together. grr.
I agree with whoever said that welsh is a lovely spoken language - my Dad doesn't. so for an april fools I tuned all of the stations on his car radio to BBCymru. they were still there a week later! and then he glued all of my post together. grr.
MC5 back/work
Nik] Thanks for all your work - it's great to see this back. Botherer] These things are utterly random. My work's firewall allows me onto MC5 and MCIOS, but not Orange - anyone have any thoughts on why this might be so? Oh and did you see that the guy who lost £9 million of his company's money gambling was betting online from work up to 30 times a day. He obviously didn't have to worry about NSFW.
[Botherer] I think it's classed as a game because of removed-yonks-ago metatags on (www.)angrycake.com. Most annoying.
[Irouleguy] The filter in place at my work used to block dunx.org, too. It stopped such foul practices some time ago now.
I need sleep bad.
[Irouleguy] The filter in place at my work used to block dunx.org, too. It stopped such foul practices some time ago now.
I need sleep bad.
[Irouleguy] My corporate firewall sound pretty much the same as yours.
Yay, MC5
:]] (big double chin grin. I might have to borrow someone else's face...)
[nik] go sleep! after all that you deserve to sleep for about three years.
Corporate Nanny Sitters
I can get onto both MCiOS and Orange from work, but not here. As I have (until recently) restricted my MCing to work (and what reason, pray, should I need to justify that stance?) this site has been sadly (for me, at any rate) (and I really should stop using so many parenthesis) neglected by me.
The idea of using a proxy server has crossed my mind more than once, but I wonder if that might be classified as a "sackable offence"?
The idea of using a proxy server has crossed my mind more than once, but I wonder if that might be classified as a "sackable offence"?
Penalties
[Botherer] A 'sackable offence'? Is that where you have a barney with your partner and are then allowed to make up?
[Dujon] you were up at the same time as me last night! were you revising too?
Writes and Wrongs
[nights] Indeed. I've been revising my life over the last week or two in order to find out why I've such a wonderful wife. I still haven't found the solution.
Oh dear...
I've got a flashy new computer on my desk, and unusally for work machines it not only has a sound card, but also has realplayer installed which means I can now listen to the radio instead of working.
[rab] Realplayer isn't a very safe piece of software to use. You might want to look at alternatives.
Realplayer
Darren] Really - what's wrong with it?
[Darren] Centrally-managed, only supported configuration blah blah blah. Can't even change the window focus policy.
Realplayer
David Beckham is a Real player, or perhaps marketing feature. Don't go near it.
So the Danish Guy Dies...
[rab] Nonstandard winning move on this game, rab?
Happiness is a Cigar called...
The winning move is in the intro...
[dujon] sounds more interesting than european migratory theory. really. but at least it came up on the exam.
[rab] I can heartily recommend xfm - I get it on my spiffy digital radio and if you like rock it's very good indeed.
[rab] I can heartily recommend xfm - I get it on my spiffy digital radio and if you like rock it's very good indeed.
Get up and boogie
Monday morning << hugs >> to anyone passing. Hope you all had a great weekend, just waiting for the snow which seems to be avoiding this part of the world. If you are still on the post Christmas detox remember exercise can be done anywhere.
Morning all!
[Inkspot] You sound cheerful :o) We've got Sunshine here in NW London for the first time in DAYS... and mild too.
[nights] oooh... Xfm, s'bloody marvellous. I have it on in the car all the time.
[nights] oooh... Xfm, s'bloody marvellous. I have it on in the car all the time.
news and weather
in local news, the gas men have been drilling outside my house since 13h yesterday, and show no signs of stopping now. I'm rather surprised I got any sleep. it's bright but without any direct sunlight in bath this morning, don't know how warm it is though, I haven't been outside yet. it's still a little too early to do anything except watch trisha.
[pen] I hate to admit it but xfm was a major motivator for me asking for the radio for christmas. that and talksport.
[pen] I hate to admit it but xfm was a major motivator for me asking for the radio for christmas. that and talksport.
sunlight
[nights] Of course you won't get direct sunlight in your bath - it's got to get through the water. And if you stay in there too long you'll get all wrinkly, then you'll sprout fins & gills and turn into a fish. You will.
[DAB] I too had a DAB radio for Xmas - they're rather excellent aren't they. Trouble is good ole FM sounds crap by comparison so I want one for my car now !
[DAB] I too had a DAB radio for Xmas - they're rather excellent aren't they. Trouble is good ole FM sounds crap by comparison so I want one for my car now !
DAB
I got a digital radio for xmas too, from my lovely sister and new brother-in-law. I'm a bit miffed at the way they're rolling out the features on this 'new technology' though - only FOUR programmable buttons when digital radio sells itself on the ability to provide hundreds of stations??? And worst of all... there's no jack plug to feed its output through a bigger stereo system, you're constrained to the small original speakers. Pffft. I think we've been bowled a lemon here, or whatever the metaphor is. I suppose a lemon is as good a mixer for metaphors as you can get, heheh
[pen] which radio did you get? I got a hitachi one, which has five presets (which is enough for me - one, xfm, talksport, four, five) and a headphone jack. I had the hardware to run a connection from the radio to the stereo's in socket, so I'm away, if only with a bit too much bass.
[bob] oh hee hee, not heard that before... *rolls eyes and stifles a yawn* :)
[bob] oh hee hee, not heard that before... *rolls eyes and stifles a yawn* :)
RUGBY PILG
News posted in Pilg Game in Orange MC.
Hamlet?
[rab] Doesn't appear to be Hamlet...
Certainly not
I repeat the previous announcment "The winning move is in the intro...". The last two words of it, I believe.
31/01/2005
Message: Yay! Big happy smiles for everyone!! I have plenty of excess pleasedness, so everyone be joyous!
joyousness
[Tuj] I was looking for an excuse! So what's the occasion?
Chocs away
[pen] Today is Chocolate Day. A reason to give into temptation.
oh what, I'm meant to have a reason?
I'm off the starting blocks way before anyone else on that one :o)
[pen] My Panasonic DAB has 10 presets at least (five buttons plus a +5 button - it may allow 15 actually, not sure.) You can store the same number for FM too. Having said that, as there aren't that many stations as yet I just turn the rotary knob till I get to the station I want coz. it simply cycles through stations rather than having to actually tune it in.
[nights] Sorry for the yawnyness - but it was your lack of capitalisation of the fair city of Bath that made me make my comment - but I now see that you appear to eschew capitalisation completely.
[nights] Sorry for the yawnyness - but it was your lack of capitalisation of the fair city of Bath that made me make my comment - but I now see that you appear to eschew capitalisation completely.
eschewing [nights]
... but not on the 'I' word :-)
[Blob] Then my sister and new brother-in-law have been cheapskates and bought me a cheapo one... I only have four... but it does have an 'up' button and a 'down' button to scroll through all the hundreds of stations is knows alphabetically, which is pretty handy, as Xfm isn't that far from BBC Radio 4, and I just go straight past 'Yoof Radio'. heheheh!
Help needed!
I've been asked to design a template email for the place where I work - you know the sort of thing - a header followed by contact details as a signature at the bottom. However, the only way I've found I can do this in Outlook is by saving all graphics into a signature. However, when I do this and click new message the email body appears above the logo. Does any one know how to put a header into an email properly?
[BtD] Abjure the heresy of embedded graphics in email! Tread the straight and narrow path of plain text only! If I received an email with a company logo in it, I'd never see the logo, because my mail program is set up to ignore graphics (and HTML).
Shoptalk, cross-posted too!
Cleanage
[Projoy] Hope you don't mind, I corrected your email link.
pro(ject)joy
Projoy] I do know someone - I will speak to them and let you know.
[blob] no, I rarely use caps. it's just habit really, rest assured when writing properly (essay and such) caps are there in full glory. my aunt has complained that I never capitalise Bath in emails as well, so I'm just a serial offender.
[chalky] pardon?
[pen] down here, we get, and I quote, 'yarr radio' on digital. the amount of chris the ninja pirate gags is innumerable. new favourite station is talkSPORT as it doesn't distract me while revising. until I start shouting at the radio.
[chalky] pardon?
[pen] down here, we get, and I quote, 'yarr radio' on digital. the amount of chris the ninja pirate gags is innumerable. new favourite station is talkSPORT as it doesn't distract me while revising. until I start shouting at the radio.
Email signatures
[BtD] Google for 'email etiquette' and 'internet etiquette' and perhaps also cite some of that info to the people making you do this project. I killfile on HTML as well - companies have lost my custom for sending me HTML in emails after I asked them not to. Costing them five to ten grand in lost business, at a rough guess. (And companies who start out by sending me HTML-in-email never get my custom in the first place.) The fact that most people are ignorant of correct email etiquette - because no modern PC-based mailer I have seen has ever thought to mention the issue - doesn't mean we all are. And I for one do use it as a filtering critereon for who I will do business with.
email
[rab] Much obliged.
Bet you can't do this!
Raise your right foot from the ground and make clockwise circles with it.
While doing that, draw anticlockwise circles in the air with your right hand.
While doing that, draw anticlockwise circles in the air with your right hand.
[raak] how does that work then? I feel an utter fool.
[nights] No idea, it came up on a mailing list on biological control systems. For another surprise, try it with the right foot and left hand.
Whee!
I'm typing this wirelessly from my new broadband connection. I'm amazed that it all works...
All
Raak] Sorry, but I can do it... And the second one really easily (or was that the surprise!?)
pen] No real reason. My happy side came out yesterday, so I ate Twixes and listened to new CDs and thought along the lines of "spread the love". I am getting worryingly dependent on Twix bars now though.
anyone] Nice to see AVMA back on our screens.
pen] No real reason. My happy side came out yesterday, so I ate Twixes and listened to new CDs and thought along the lines of "spread the love". I am getting worryingly dependent on Twix bars now though.
anyone] Nice to see AVMA back on our screens.
[Tuj] Yes, that's the surprise. Opposite foot and hand don't interfere. I wonder if organists would find it easier, having learned to make their hands and feet work independently.
[Raak] Took a bit of effort but I was able to do it after a few tries. I found the trick was to set the hand going until you no longer thought about it, and then concentrated on the foot moving in the opposite direction.
As for organists, I don't think they'd find it much easier, because the movements they make with their feet aren't hugely complicated - as far as I know, no more complicated than those a driver makes in a car with the pedals.
hey I had an exam this morning, and it wasn't the evil colossus of doom I thought it would be. hey!
phew
[nights] s'often the way. You nearly done, exam-wise?
[btw - my comment above which you queried - I was referring to the word 'I' [as in first person] which you always capitalise, even if the rest of the sentence is lower case :-)]
[btw - my comment above which you queried - I was referring to the word 'I' [as in first person] which you always capitalise, even if the rest of the sentence is lower case :-)]
Examination
It disturbs me that the assessment aspect of degree programmes is given so much prominence these days. I say this both from empathy with the students, and as one of the people who has to mark the bloody things.
But how can you evaluate without assessment?
The key words of the last statement were "so much prominence".
[bm] coursework - I have a 2000 word essay to turn in tomorrow which is MUCH better than an exam in that particular unit.
[chalky] one more this afternoon, but that I'm not freaking about too much. and I'm going on holiday saturday night for a week which is something to look forward to. and I cap the I because I was taught at a very young age always to do it. it doesn't excuse not doing it the rest of the time, but... um... er... shut up.
[rab] thanks. lots of people think that students are just stinking lamos, that we don't work, drink ourselves into oblivion every night of the week and then stay up until three the night before an exam/coursework deadline. of course, this is true some of the time, but by no means all. there was a bit in the student guardian (possibly one of my favourite things about university, a free digest of the week's news when I haven't had time to go anywhere near a paper that isn't Metro) about how students are determined to get value for money from degrees, and so are working their collective reproductive organs off trying to get firsts and distinctions and honours.
on an unrelated note, what do you teach/mark?
[chalky] one more this afternoon, but that I'm not freaking about too much. and I'm going on holiday saturday night for a week which is something to look forward to. and I cap the I because I was taught at a very young age always to do it. it doesn't excuse not doing it the rest of the time, but... um... er... shut up.
[rab] thanks. lots of people think that students are just stinking lamos, that we don't work, drink ourselves into oblivion every night of the week and then stay up until three the night before an exam/coursework deadline. of course, this is true some of the time, but by no means all. there was a bit in the student guardian (possibly one of my favourite things about university, a free digest of the week's news when I haven't had time to go anywhere near a paper that isn't Metro) about how students are determined to get value for money from degrees, and so are working their collective reproductive organs off trying to get firsts and distinctions and honours.
on an unrelated note, what do you teach/mark?
I'm a big fan of the notion of continuous assessment (i.e. such that the learner themself is able to input into evaluating the success of their endeavours). The worst forms of assessment IMO are those that have no continuity with the actual learning process, i.e. sit-down "blind" exams.
[projoy] hear, hear. I had the last exam today - despite my bus not showing up and me having to run across campus to be a few minutes late, it wasn't too bad. now all I have left is the 2000 word essay, which is why I shall be on campus from 08h tomorrow. ouch.
[nights] I do tutorials for mid-degree (i.e., round years 2&3, depending on the degree programme and education system) physics students. In practice this means that typically they've been in the game long enough to know what the deal is, and have got into a reasonable routine and habits regarding learning stuff, but still haven't quite reached the point where they'll voluntarily spend the whole day in the library/lab because they like it. (That kicks in around 3rd/4th year). Apparently I'm now a "senior tutor", which doesn't come with any extra money (in fact, I'm lucky it comes with any money at all) but does involve added responsibility. One of these is checking the exam papers, hand-in questions etc. all of which form part and parcel of the "assessment" that's going on. In practice, "checking" means "working through and making sure you can do it in 1/3-1/2 the time we expect the students to spend on it". Which is quite a lot of extra work, cos you have to get 100% as well...
[nights, again] To be honest, I don't think that what you say has ever been true, at least not for the last 15 years or so. I think there's a whole bunch of myths that get irresponsibly perpetuated by ex-students about how all they did was drink, get laid and engage in oh-so-hilarious traffic-furniture relocation exercises. Though now I think about it...
My gripe about assessment, apart from the obvious selfish one, is that for all the foreplay and aftermath that surrounds a formal exam is that, per hour of examination, I estimate you lose about one weeks' worth of time that could be used teaching people something. I'm still "out" on continuous assessment. I hated it as a student, but now I'm on "the other side" I've seen evidence that it can boost the performance of those in the bulk of the distribution. The lower end is always impossible to motivate, and the top end usually looks after itself but I do worry that if things become too prescribed they might get a bit bored. Personally, I advocate oral examinations since they give people the opportunity to reveal what they know, rather than what they don't. However, I realise most people feel quite intimidated by them so my feeling is that a mixture of sit-down, continuous assessment and scary viva would probably be the fairest system of all.
[rab] In other words, try every method of torture to see which one breaks them? :-)
Students
I was a student once and if all they do is get drunk and laid, I missed out on 50% of my education. I'm not telling you which 50%, but you can probably guess...
[botherer] never mind. get involved in sunday league football, that'll help redress the balance.
[rab] I'm second year, and I think I'm at the stage you describe your physics students as being at. I *like* my subject, it interests me (finally), but I wouldn't stay on campus all day working on it because I like it. although I am today, but that's because I'm grossly disorganised. oh well, wish me luck.
[rab] I'm second year, and I think I'm at the stage you describe your physics students as being at. I *like* my subject, it interests me (finally), but I wouldn't stay on campus all day working on it because I like it. although I am today, but that's because I'm grossly disorganised. oh well, wish me luck.
continuous
[rab] That's odd. When I was a student I hated discontinuous assesment (to the extent of picking my courses to avoid exams), but doing education work has led me to like it less, because it normally means continuous alertness to student needs (and a more constant flow of paperwork), which is harder than sitting back and regurgitating a load of stuff at students the same each year.
(That's not an argument against it, btw, just an observation)...
(er, and I meant "...doing education work has led me to like continuous assessment less...")
*goes back to bed*
um
er?
wha?
fuh? essay's done by the way. I think I'm going to explode with joy at the prospect of a week off...
*sandbags against the prospect of nights exploding with joy* i wish...
[nights] Well, assessed coursework is still assessment, I should think. In any case, personally I don't mind exams, although perhaps that's because I'm all right at them (my BA was 100% exams, and all the exams took place within a single fortnight at the end). I'm not convinced by the argument that assessment is an ineffecient use of time because it could be better used teaching students things: I'd say that reinforcing stuff you've already been taught and ensuring that you actually know it properly rather than have just a vague memory of it - in other words, revising - is just as valuable as learning it the first time around, if not more so.
Maximising retention
Best way to maximise the amount you can recall of what you have been taught is to review it after a day, a week, a month, a year, noting errors in your recall at each stage and concentrating on correcting them. I can vouch for the fact that it works, it's just that I for one was always far too lazy to do it properly.
sooooo.....what's happening?
updatey
[ZK] I am feeling delicate after a bloody good wedding yesterday. Recovering with the liberal application of tea and TV.
Hello ZK - good to see you again :-)
Hello pen - good to see you as always :-)
I'm spending a bit of time on here 'googling' for 3 Characters for the quiz tonight. It's my turn in the chair and the last round involves giving information in 3 stages about a person and the scores are 5,3 or 1 depending on when the correct answer is given. I'm trying to be really fair and not choose subjects that the team I belong to will be able to answer straight away and score maximum points. Oh - and I have to cook a roast chicken dinner for 5 for around 5pm.
Hello pen - good to see you as always :-)
I'm spending a bit of time on here 'googling' for 3 Characters for the quiz tonight. It's my turn in the chair and the last round involves giving information in 3 stages about a person and the scores are 5,3 or 1 depending on when the correct answer is given. I'm trying to be really fair and not choose subjects that the team I belong to will be able to answer straight away and score maximum points. Oh - and I have to cook a roast chicken dinner for 5 for around 5pm.
...continuing
Yum. I chose E M Forster, Peter Gabriel and Otto von Bismarck and have aimed for some tantalising first clues ...
Two Bismarck trivia
He had a country house built, called Schloss Kroechlendorff (been there, got the sweatshirt), and he said, "God made Austrians by crossing Bavarians with humans."
[Raak] So how do we tell him apart from Peter Gabriel?
[Darren] Costumes. Gabriel will either be a giant flower or a fox, Bismarck will be a slightly camp military type.
Breaking the silence
[rab] Does being 'darlinged' give you a hangover the next morning? ;o)
Bismarck et al
[Chalky] I seem to remember [from my O-level history (over 25 years ago, eeek)] that OvB introduced Kulturkampf where he sought to reduce the power of the Catholic church in Germany, fairly successfully. He also tried to "kill socialism with kindness" - which was an interesting concept that mirrored Tsar Alexander's ill-fated attempts at liberalisation in Russia. Blimey it all comes flooding back ...
Bismarck was great. He seems to have been prejudiced against more or less everyone apart from upper-class Protestant Prussians - remember he referred to Disraeli as "that old Jew" in a tone of grudging respect! And he had a dodgy tache too.
Break like the wind
[pen] Is it supposed to?
Stations End
[rab] There seems to be a problem with Stations Revenge. There have been a few attempts at killing it so the unmasking can begin. Is it possible for you find out what the problem is and post the cure?
Why kill it?
Why not indeed...
again
[Bismarck trivia contributors - thanks] Yes - it was an enlightening bit of research, however, I still can't find out the proper name for his trademark pointy topped helmet. Or indeed what type of creature nested in his 'tache.
Whoops. The reason why the game won't end is quite amusing, if you know anything about Perl regexps. I'll put the fix in tonight - will need to check it works first, so am nervous about doing it in situ...
hasty revenge
[rab] in situ as opposed to ...?
[Inks] Further to my abrupt 'Why kill it?' - um.. it's still quite new - it's moving along at a steady pace - not every 'move' has been made yet - I just think there's some mileage in it compared to a couple of the other MC games.
and another thing ... ROSIE!!
[Inks] Further to my abrupt 'Why kill it?' - um.. it's still quite new - it's moving along at a steady pace - not every 'move' has been made yet - I just think there's some mileage in it compared to a couple of the other MC games.
and another thing ... ROSIE!!
sweet revenge
[Chalky] I was just curious, but I am more than happy to carry on playing, are you?
[Chalky] I think he means he's deeply worried someone might try winning the game while he's working on it - big bangs, flashing lights, tape spewing on floor, "MALFUNCTION - DOES NOT COMPUTE," sparks, demolition of The Institute, "the reactor's gonna blow," alarms, emergency lighting, "dive! dive! dive!" and so on.
This new Chorkee - is it Chalky without glasses? Or perhaps the bizarre offspring of Chalky and Uncle Korky? Or maybe a very small Cherokee?
[Inks] Yes indeed, which should tell you that it wasn't me trying to end the game .. or SO YOU THINK ...
[Darren] Gosh. Joking apart - is it possible for a computer/server to malfunction to such an extent that it really would explode or even spark and sizzle a bit?
[Darren] Gosh. Joking apart - is it possible for a computer/server to malfunction to such an extent that it really would explode or even spark and sizzle a bit?
[Chalky] If the power supply goes, then yes. If they're overloaded, they will often overheat, and sometimes (like mine did last year) go "pop" and stop working - that's if you're lucky. Some will actually explode when they're overloaded. Some will simply make a loud bang and smoulder. Others may suddenly start pumping out more voltage than your machine can take, which could cause other things to go bang. So if you do a bit of home modification, do take care that you don't overload your PSU.
Oh, and buying a home fire extinguisher suitable for electrical fires won't go amiss either.
Mine, all mine
Stations' Revenge should be winnable now... The downside is that you're no longer able to specify the winning move as a Perl regexp. Not that you were ever supposed to, of course.
non-news is good news
I have tidied my bedroom - the change is amazing! And I just cleaned out my mouse in the office - again, a huge improvement. My coffee this morning was good too. Just needed to share that with you...
How clean is your...
[pen]So just the belly buttoon fluff to tackle next. But where to do it. In private or at the office desk.
[Inkspot] No, do it in public. Sell tickets.
Public hair
Some people already show off their belly button fluff.
BBF
(Boolbar) Tried the link. Amazing. You can find anything on the net, it seems. This rather discreet oldie is perplexed that anyone would want to put their name to such a site. But I did have a belly laugh, you might say.
woo-hoo!!
Today was another First Date Day. And it was good. :o)
*catches up*
*presses wrong key*
I've been on a boat. man it was relaxing. anyway.
[pen] yaaaay!
[ZK] hello! how's lovely birmingham?
[simons mith] I've been told that technique by my director of studies before. problem is I'm fantastically lazy.
[Chalky] when I murdered my old computer (before the lovely laptop, before the faithful mac, there was the evil HP that had to be destroyed) I switched it from 240V to 115V.
*BAANG!!!*
*smoke*
*fuses trip out*
"(nights), WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON UP THERE?"
[pen] yaaaay!
[ZK] hello! how's lovely birmingham?
[simons mith] I've been told that technique by my director of studies before. problem is I'm fantastically lazy.
[Chalky] when I murdered my old computer (before the lovely laptop, before the faithful mac, there was the evil HP that had to be destroyed) I switched it from 240V to 115V.
*BAANG!!!*
*smoke*
*fuses trip out*
"(nights), WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON UP THERE?"
Ah, back again
...but what happened to Reverse 11?
Oh, and
Any ideas for games in the slots? I was trying to think of something new and exciting, though I'm sure something old and exciting would be as good if not better.
New game
Let's have another go at that
(Tuj) I found Clerihews Who (on MCiOS) quite agreeable. Not new and not exciting, I admit.
Rab and I had a funny online chat the other day, and I remember thinking 'This would make an interesting game' but I cannot, for the life of me, remember what it was. It might have been something along the lines of 'Best Excuse' or 'Customer Complaints'.
Uptime
Morning all. From the logs, the reason for the server disappearing is that 'the peer' (ie the ISP) is failing to respond to echo requests. The actual reason I don't know - the ISP not responding, the line dropping, etc. I've extended the interval between echo requests and increased the number of attempts, which may help. It was already set to immediately re-attempt connection up to 25 times, which it appears to not be doing, annoyingly, but I've changed that to 'unlimited' anyway.
Chattiness
[pen] Was it something to do with "Autoglass Mobile" and how they're not, but they know someone who has a mobile?
Uptime
Hm. The outage over the weekend may have been caused by a massive outage in BT's Manchester centre, which it seems is rather a large single point of failure.
is it bad that I didn't notice?
How about a nice game of "imaginary crescent"?
How about a nice game of "imaginary crescent"?
I was myself substantially surprised to find the machines inaccessible and then, upon 'fixing' it, not find a mention on MCiOS.
[Nik] I think it's known as 'polite outage' - much like a silent fart.
oh, but that we should go for a whole day without a fart joke!
(Chalky) I'm not convinced that silent farts are polite. If one is going to pollute, one should own up to it. Not that I would, mind.
[Rosie] Hmmm - see what you mean. I thought I'd added the words '.. when there's no-one around' [which might make more sense of the analogy]
... a bit later on
I've created a game :-)
politeness
Politeness requires that one should try not to make a noise when expelling anal gas. It similarly requires that one should not make a noise upon discovering expelled anal gases. Thus society continues in a mutual agreement to ignore the occurence.
sounds like a lot of heads being buried in sand to me...
Mmmh, what's cooking?
My father used to say "you're like a fart in a colander" to indicate uselessness. I don't know why that has just popped into my head or even why I'm bothering telling you lot, but there it is.
fart, fart, fart
I think it's about time we invented some sort of pants-catalytic-converter. We take pains to minimise every other bad smell our bodies produce, so it would be quite in keeping.
fartish
They have, you know.Click here for odour removal!
Gaseous eruptions
(st d) I think burping noisily is more offensive (in a polite setting) than farting. You can always do it silently and the "product" is inoffensive. No-one need know. But you can't get away with a fart, however discreetly expelled. (Projoy) Now, there's a challenge I can't ignore, as a chemist. The simplest answer would be an appropriately-shaped pellet of activated charcoal taped to the bum in a gastight manner. It would need to be kept dry and be easily removable for obvious reasons. It would eventually (a month or so) become "full", so to speak, but could easily be regenerated by heating in an oven, the only problem being that everything it had absorbed would be driven off. Extractor on full blast, I feel. snorgle has got in while I was writing this and the link says it's been done already. I bet it's activated charcoal, though. Just a question of how you fix it.
charcoal
[Rosie]Ah, maybe it would just be better to get some fresh activated charcoal. How do you activate charcoal anyway? Is there a big red button?
oho!
[snorgle] There's a satisfied customer quote on that site: "The feeling of security!" from one Julie Anderson, which I initially read as Julie Andrews. Now there's an image.
The whole problem with that product is the need to make the underwear airtight. Ewies. I did read once upon a time about tablets you can take (which I believe are also charcoal) to nullify smells. Any health risk?
ohdearohdearohdear
[snorgs] Thanks - it's a fantastic site with a wealth of snigger potential. 'Wear them for the one you love' springs to mind as a suitable phrase for examination, given that possibly the most irritating and in-yer-face flatulence occurs beneath the duvet ...
[Chalky] "In-yer-face" and "beneath the duvet" was probably more information than I strictly needed.
oo-er
[rab] sorry ... didn't realise you were looking in :-)
so, what is everybody doing this friday night? and no I'm not trying to change the subject, just a natural progression in the conversation...
I was supposed to be appearing as part of a work of art at Chelsea Art College for a final-year show. The artist invited me and some friends to be an installation, but it got cancelled due to lack of interest from other quarters. So I'm going to Wales, which I think is an appropriate response.
[PJ] An installation? I love weird art - what would you have been doing?
[nights] Celebrating a friend's birthday.
[nights] Celebrating a friend's birthday.
[nights] With a bit of luck, being seduced over dinner. Failing that, washing and ironing.
[pen] if all else fails, come to Bath and *I'll* seduce you...
[Chalky] It wasn't that weird, really, kind of lazy. She just wanted a couple of groups of people to stand around and get served canapés by waiters and chat. I assume the idea was that by putting me and my friends in a gallery we, and our social interactions would have been decontextualised so we became the subject of the viewer's critical analysis. Something like that.
Which, I have to say, is the oldest trick in the book, only slightly leavened by the fact that standing around eating canapés and chatting is exactly what looks natural in a gallery, so we'd have been decontextualised and contextualised all at once, which may be a bit self-defeating.
[Projoy] But it would make the gallery seem less empty than it might otherwise, especially if the show was in danger of being cancelled for lack of interest. The idea occurs to me of an art show in which it only transpires afterwards that everyone there was an exhibit, no-one actually came to see it.
hoary old chestnut
[Raak] But can it be considered Art if there is no audience?
Well, in that case the art would be its own audience, which saves a lot of mucking about, really.
[Projoy] stop it, you're making a customer-induced headache many times worse. stop it at once. yes I've been to work this evening, no it wasn't fun.
[Projoy] Hasn't someone done something *very* similar to that before? I seem to recall seeing it...
meta-friendatanexhibition
[Projoy] I presume you would have stood around discussing the visitors to the exhibit.
Ars gratia artis
[Darren] I should think about, say, thousands of people have done something very similar to it. [CdM] Indeed. What else to discuss? It might have been quite funny if we'd been submitted as a portfolio piece and allowed to give the examiner a mark out of ten.
art-lark
Has anyone done the "art" of having an empty room, getting hired people to stand around in this room looking at and discussing the pieces of art that aren't really there and then letting the public come in and be slightly bewildered?
Difficult to make plausible, I'd say, because most people move around galleries in silence or talking only in hushed tones. You'd somehow have to have your actors miming that there is art there, either by staring fixedly at particular points on the wall, or taking very obvious detours around things, craning neck etc.
Art for arseache
Probably simpler just to issue a press release saying you've done something where the art and the audience were the same thing. Again, saves a lot of mucking about.
.. as well as the cost of new clothes for the Emperor ..
[Projoy] "The art and the audience being the same thing" is reminiscent of John Cage's 4'33".
quizzonicals
[Chalks] Are you organising another pub quiz? We came across some interesting statistics today in 'Fleet News' - did you know...
- Royal Mail has 25,636 vans in the UK, plus mopeds and lorries
- Its annual mileage forcast is 590 million miles (18,437 miles per vehicle)
- and it operates 115,000 post boxes.
useful for that 'nearest million' tiebreaker question ;o)
- Royal Mail has 25,636 vans in the UK, plus mopeds and lorries
- Its annual mileage forcast is 590 million miles (18,437 miles per vehicle)
- and it operates 115,000 post boxes.
useful for that 'nearest million' tiebreaker question ;o)
it'd be interesting to see how much wandering around campus I do in an academic year. strap an odometer on me, let's do some SCIENCE!
fleeting glimpse
[penny penpenpen] Hey! When I was at EMAP , we 'launched' Fleet News - my mother worked on that publication for years and years :-) Good to hear some stats though, but doubt if I'll get the chance to use them this season, which ends in a few weeks for an Easter break.
Did I really say that word? Easter?
[nights] a pedometer might help :-)
Did I really say that word? Easter?
[nights] a pedometer might help :-)
[Chalky] EMAP, eh? I used to get a magazine they did... almost certainly a computer one (but I can't remember which), and definitely before all computer magazines turned crap.
EMAP
They do er, "Steam Railway". I sent them a load of B&W pics I took in the late fifties as they had expressed an interest. They forgot about them. Then they lost them. Then they found them, and finally they sent them back. This took nearly 3 years. Amazingly, "Steam Railway" is quite a good magazine, if you're into that sort of thing.
That's hardly surprising, considering the vast quantity of royalty-free photography they obviously have access to (a.k.a. to which they obviously have access). Sounds like a tenderfull of fun and I'd order it right away but I can't afford the fee until my subscription to "B&W Steam Photography" expires/evaporates/condenses.
Steam Railway
Rosie] Amazingly? I think "if you're into that sort of thing" means that the magazine would be quite good by definition - does it have much competition?
[Tuj] Oh, I wouldn't be so sure you'd automatically like a magazine just cos you're interested in the topic! I mean, I'm very much into retro games, but many of the magazines devoted to it are truly dreadful.
The Amazing Quality of Steam Railway
(Tuj) Amazing that they produce quite a good magazine despite their apparent administrative incompetence with my photos. There's no competition, strictly speaking, because they are only concerned with preserved railways and are by far the leading magazine for that. There are other steam loco magazines devoted to the real steam era (mainly 50's and 60's), when engines were a bit grubby but really worked hard instead of poncing about at 25 mph with two coaches, and all dolled up with polished brass and gleaming paintwork but emitting vast plumes of black smoke because they're overfired by nervous incompetents. You can't say anything, of course, because tremendous amounts of labour go into the appearance of the engines but to me they look unreal, a bit like brickies at a posh wedding (snobby bugger).
[chalky] bite me, I'm an arts student, I don't know any better
[darren] I'm glad someone else recognises the rubbishness of games magazines. I remember amiga power and CVG with a sort of warm glow.
[darren] I'm glad someone else recognises the rubbishness of games magazines. I remember amiga power and CVG with a sort of warm glow.
[nights] A mate of mine does CDs/DVDs with scans of classic games mags, good quality too (they include all the covertapes and stuff too)... if that sort of thing would interest you! (He spends more time than you would care to contemplate on obtaining and scanning all these mags.) The first ten years of C&VG are on one of these DVDs.
[darren] wooooww... I was reading C&VG around 1997 - 1998 (around when tomb raider II came out, the article reviewing it started my tomb raider obsession) so if your friend has that period I'd be deeply interested...
[nights] Hehehe, C&VG started in November 1981, so the first ten years covers 1981-91, which I suspect may have been a little before your time! In the early days it was largely a type-in listings mag (initially aimed at those who had built computers from kits), and then shifted slightly into an 8-bit games review mag. From then on, it was on its way to being as it is now.
C&VG
So I guess I'm not the only one who used to wait with baited breath for the next issue of C&VG with its BASIC game listing and, more importantly, error corrections from the previous issue's game?
Realtime Pilgomation Service
Just in case anyone was unaware, there is a pilgrimage on 5th March. I for one am greatly looking forward to meeting the estimable Mr Dunx. Meanwhile, the Monday-night e-pilgs seem to have kicked orff again. The 'Easterners' (flerdle, Néa PaulWay) seem to be in by 8pm GMT (long before then, quite probably) with the 'Centralists' dribbling in a little later. If you've not been before, follow the 'Real Time...' link on MCiOS.
games with my floppy
I have become all nostalgic for the simpler games, shareware that small enough to fit on a floppy. One of the first we played in the office (during lunch) was Gods, a great little platform game. Just found it to download - wonderful.
early early
[rab] Waaaaaah, want to pilgy-pilg! I don't know when I'll be returning to those shores, unfortunately - probably not for a long time.
The e-pilgs have been much fun. Yes, I'm usually there earlier -- by 7pm GMT -- and a few others dribble in shortly after that... for me it's that time simply because it's already 11pm by then here and I usually can't stay for more than an hour or two.
The e-pilgs have been much fun. Yes, I'm usually there earlier -- by 7pm GMT -- and a few others dribble in shortly after that... for me it's that time simply because it's already 11pm by then here and I usually can't stay for more than an hour or two.
chatting away
I'll try to make it but will be very late after I've finished being quizmaster in another chat room :(
Gods
[Inkspot] Although "Gods" is still a little too recent to be retro for me, the "Into the Wonderful" theme tune from it is actually one I do love playing on piano. Perhaps if enough people come to the Rugby pilg who are remember such games, I could play you a few classic gaming tunes on Projoy's piano.
Shhh!
[Inkspot] Gods wasn't shareware, it was good old comes-in-a-huge-box-for-£30 commercial software with a demo for magazine coverdisks. I hope it's been "abandoned" (or you got said demo) and you've not been using a works machine/connection to infringe copyright. Or that The Powers That Be don't find out, or care.
[Darren] Can you also perform on your piano the theme tune from the other Bitmap Brothers side-scrolling platformer, Magic Pockets?
I hope I'm remembering my publishers correctly here, and haven't just committed a terrible faux pas.
[Darren] Can you also perform on your piano the theme tune from the other Bitmap Brothers side-scrolling platformer, Magic Pockets?
I hope I'm remembering my publishers correctly here, and haven't just committed a terrible faux pas.
Nope, GODS is definitely not abandonware. It can in fact still be purchased, albeit peculiarly only for the Archimedes (someone ported their games to the Archimedes?! Good Lord!). And hurrah, faux pas avoided! Double points for me! But negative points for starting sentences with 'and' and 'but' in quick succession.
Magic Pockets, music by Richard Joseph (although somewhat originating with Betty Boo). I've met him a few times (and come to think of it I have a photo of him with me on my site). As for playing it, that voice is a bit too high even for me!
Correction: I have a photo I took of Richard on my site. Warren Pilkington has a photo of me with him.
chatties
[chat] unfortunately, the innernet has been particularly unreliable this last five days or so, which has been highly frustrating -- so don't be surprised if I don't make it tonight, or am late, or if I disappear prematurely.
I should be able to epilg from about 19h30 GMT as I'm home... hey, that's NOW! *heads for epilg*
Going back a bit earlier.
[C&VG] I had one of my games printed in C&VG back in 1985-ish. "Oggs' Eggs" Lovingly written in Atari BASIC. I got paid! Yey!
[Boolbar] Found it. Issue 44 (June 1985), pages 56 & 61, with ads for Atari, Dam Busters and Lode Runner in between! Actually says here you wrote it in 1982... took a while to get it published then!
[Darren] Sure did, by the time they published that I was into writing games written in machine code. The Atari is in the attic, I wonder if it still works . . .
Did you get any of your machine code efforts published anywhere? (I mean in boxed form, rather than magazines, of course.)
[Darren] No, they were purely for my own fun, since few games written for the old Atari 400/800 were any good ("Star Raiders" and "Mercenary" aside). I aimed for crude graphics, crude sound but very playable and increasing difficulty the longer you played.
There you have hit the nail on the head, as regards why I still play retro games. They tended to be a lot more playable. You had less in the way of graphics (generally speaking) and sound (also generally), but that made the programmers try all the harder to make games that were fun. I find many modern games extremely tiresome. I had my first computer in 1983 (an Acorn Electron), and that's the one where I first learnt to program. As time went on I moved through the C64, Amiga and now PC (not counting consoles). These days I have got myself a nice little retro collection, having added various other machines to the set (ranging from Atari 2600 to Spectrum to... well, Dreamcast!). I'm sure a part of it is simply nostalgia for childhood, but when it comes down to it, I really do find a lot of older games more entertaining than newer ones - even if the older games are not ones I grew up playing.
(OK, Dreamcast is too recent to be retro, but it is obsolete, which is half the battle!)
Thanks - you've just provided some inspiration for the 'You know when...' game.
[Nik] Yeah, nothing like playing on the Elk. I still have a few. When I was at CGEUK I had the opportunity to fiddle with a heavily souped-up Turbo Electron (a photo is in my Yahoo album), which boasted a 256K RAM-drive among other things.
[Darren] I like your MC sims!
aaaargh
[Boolbar] You obviously don't frequent the Orange MC chatgame.
*switches off*
*switches off*
[Chalky] I just did - I haven't been there for 6 months by the looks of it.
*Goes back to watching the pretty snowflakes*
*Goes back to watching the pretty snowflakes*
Elktastic
Add me to the pile of people who couldn't afford a BBC micro were proud owners of an Acorn Electron.
Acorn computers
I've had an Acorn computer of one sort or another for over 20 years. The latest, if you can call it that, is the A7000. I use it for keeping my weather records, creating my own little games and general mathematical recreations. The BBC Basic is so easy to use I can write programs blindfold, pissed and hanging from the doorway (like the young lady from Norway). (Darren) I used to write machine code stuff on the Spectrum. What a bunch of nerds we all are. :-)
knerds
Me too! Well, sort of. I began my computer career with a Commodore Vic 20. If memory serves me right it had 3.5K of memory and I thought that was somewhat extravagant. How times change. From there I progressed through a C64 an Amstrad 128 (colour!) and then into IBM compatibles - originally the 640K monsters and then the 286 processors and onwards.
I have never coded in machine code but had an absolute ball (and much satisfaction) using the various breeds of BASIC. I feel that I must have had more time on my hands than I now do. I do remember 'inventing' a tree-sort programme in BASIC - it took me ages to get it working properly - only to find that I'd simply reinvented the wheel. Still, it worked well and put the 'bubble' sorts of the day to shame. Whilst I've taken the trouble to learn COBOL - because of where I was working at the time - I really have not progressed much further. I had (long forgotten) a smattering of 'C' and a couple of its later incarnations but was most assuredly not adept at either. All the later stuff seems too verbose to me. Bring back the days of tight code - someone else may not be able to read it but that's their problem!
I have never coded in machine code but had an absolute ball (and much satisfaction) using the various breeds of BASIC. I feel that I must have had more time on my hands than I now do. I do remember 'inventing' a tree-sort programme in BASIC - it took me ages to get it working properly - only to find that I'd simply reinvented the wheel. Still, it worked well and put the 'bubble' sorts of the day to shame. Whilst I've taken the trouble to learn COBOL - because of where I was working at the time - I really have not progressed much further. I had (long forgotten) a smattering of 'C' and a couple of its later incarnations but was most assuredly not adept at either. All the later stuff seems too verbose to me. Bring back the days of tight code - someone else may not be able to read it but that's their problem!
You know, I can still remember some of the POKE and PEEK codes for the Commodore 64. 53280 was to change the border colour, 53281 the screen colour. I felt just like a real programmer!And when I worked out how to do multicoloured sprites (in *four* colours) - well.
Looks like an appropriate place to remind us of Hey Hey, 16k too...
Looks like an appropriate place to remind us of Hey Hey, 16k too...
[preceding few posts] uhm... er... yeah... hey look it's snowing!
[nights] Not 'round our bloody way, it isn't! It's all melted, and it's now raining!
Steam-age computers
(Breadmaster, Darren) Yep, happy days. I always thought POKE a bit rude and if you POKEd the wrong number in it all crashed. (nights, Uncle K) Up here on the Downs at Warlingham, aka Little Siberia, the houses are groaning under the weight of a good inch of snow. We were told to expect 10-15 centimetres (whatever they are) and more on hills (i.e. here). As someone who used to be in the business all I can say is that the forecast was hysterical.
[uncle k] so where are you then?
[nights] I'm currently slaving away in my office in Barking.
[Rosie] BBC BASIC didn't have POKE, per se. It had other indirection operators, $, ? and !, which allowed memory to used rather like variables. For example, ?A=B would be the same as POKE A,B; and A=?B would be the same as A=PEEK(B). ! allowed 32-bit access rather than the 8-bit access provided by ?, and $ allowed string peeks/pokes. Furthermore, you could combine each operator with an offset, so A?2=B?4 would be equivalent to POKE A+2,PEEK(B+4) in other versions of BASIC. Although ? was arguably less clear than PEEK, ! and $ made memory access a lot clearer if you were dealing with larger data than single bytes. It also let you do some tricks which seemed mystifying to the uninitiated, such as CALL !-4 which would have the same effect as pressing the BREAK key!
[Rosie] Actually, since you still have an Acorn machine, you know all that already.
[nights] Luddite! ;-)
[Rosie] I saw in my local paper today a couple of paragraphs indicating that Russian meteoroligsts will be fined should they get 'it' wrong. That'd spark up your whatsits!
(Darren) Certainly do. But I used to POKE my Spectrum unmercifully. :-)
Russian meteorologists
(Dujon) The perfect way of ensuring useless weather forecasts. Russian weathermen will now say there is a risk of everything but everyone will soon learn to ignore them, thus being caught out when there actually is a risk. So it's an absolutely brilliant idea. I think we may have more than a trace of it here. Have a look at my earlier posting.
We had some sort of snow early in the week, which created the lightest of dustings which remained on the ground for almost an entire night. Then it all went wet and unsnowlike. Imagine my surprise to wake up this morning and see *real* snow actually lying on the ground all over the place. It's melting now, though. Somehow, such brief snow is worse than no snow at all, as it's so tantalising.
[dujon] pardon me?
we had a midnight screening of rocky horror last night for rag week. myself and my friend hid in the proj box and drank while the rest of the audience yelled 'ARSEHOLE!', 'SLUT!' and danced in the aisles and also on stage. and there's a couple of people I genuinely never want to see in a basque again. so I'm sleep deprivated but in a rather good mood. and it's FRIDAY!
we had a midnight screening of rocky horror last night for rag week. myself and my friend hid in the proj box and drank while the rest of the audience yelled 'ARSEHOLE!', 'SLUT!' and danced in the aisles and also on stage. and there's a couple of people I genuinely never want to see in a basque again. so I'm sleep deprivated but in a rather good mood. and it's FRIDAY!
But does Friday really make much difference when you're a student...?
Arghhh
Nights - are you from bath uni cos we did that too? and if you are I am very confused............
Oh and breadmaster, friday nights make all the difference when your a student, well to some students anyway.............. Am I supposed to make up a cool name for myself? Do you only write on here at certain times? Where do you actually play this game? I think i would enjoy it if only I could figure out what the hell is going on I guess I am just not cool. Or un-cool. Or mis-cool. Or dis-cool. Or under-cool. Upset.
[Amy G] Hi Amy G. I hope you weren't too put off by the intense moral discussions taking place on Orange at the moment! We're not normally that serious, unless someone splits an infinitive or something.
You don't have to have a cool name. A stupid one will also do, as I demonstrate. You can write here at any time too.
Cool names
(Amy G) Any name will do, provided it isn't 50 letters long. Silly names are welcome. Mine is, for instance, because I'm a bloke, and not a very young one either. There are no rules as such, but just conventions. Never post under someone else's name - that's very bad form. Write any time you like and welcome to the asylum.
Nom de plume &c
Inkers] I've been frequenting the boards for nearly 4 years and it hasn't got any less strange. I like to think I've been able to contribute to that effect.
Oh, and my name's origins involve York, Australians, boredom and archaeology.
Oh, and my name's origins involve York, Australians, boredom and archaeology.
It's very rare that I'm ever accused of being 'cool'... Welcome aboard. I'm not Scottish.
Names
(rab) Of course you're not. You're a one-time liberal Tory Home Secretary. (Tuj) That's an awful lot for 3 letters. I'm baffled. My own monicker is a nickname given to me in about 1967 and has a connection with my real name.
[amy g] wow, yeah I am. weirdness. did you go thursday?
[breadmaster] probably not because I work all day saturday, but you knew that already.
[breadmaster] probably not because I work all day saturday, but you knew that already.
[amy g] Hello dear. Don't mind them, just come in and say what you think. My name is far posher than my rude comments might warrant, but I'm trying not to be too coarse today as you're new.
Just had a rather weird transition - from a National Trust working holiday leader training weekend for conservation projects, talking big ideas, supervision, conservation and green stuff, eating white bread and cheap pink ham because that's all there is to eat in a National Trust basecamp in deepest Sussex, complete silence and darkness at night and midnight walks under a full moon over frozen fields back from the pub to sleeping bags in a dormitory (is that how you spell it? looks weird) with 12 others and one socket between us, no radio or TV... straight home and out again after a quick wash and brush up to a house-warming in the upper end of the Bucks commuter belt where no-one had ANYTHING to talk about but house prices (all above £400K) and football, which is apparently now the new gentelman's pursuit. I'm a bit baffled right now. No doubt work will set me straight in the morning.
Just had a rather weird transition - from a National Trust working holiday leader training weekend for conservation projects, talking big ideas, supervision, conservation and green stuff, eating white bread and cheap pink ham because that's all there is to eat in a National Trust basecamp in deepest Sussex, complete silence and darkness at night and midnight walks under a full moon over frozen fields back from the pub to sleeping bags in a dormitory (is that how you spell it? looks weird) with 12 others and one socket between us, no radio or TV... straight home and out again after a quick wash and brush up to a house-warming in the upper end of the Bucks commuter belt where no-one had ANYTHING to talk about but house prices (all above £400K) and football, which is apparently now the new gentelman's pursuit. I'm a bit baffled right now. No doubt work will set me straight in the morning.
Dormitories
I have a afriend who is normally quite sensible and normal, but occasionally goes a bit edgy. In this state he often says in a slightly Teutonic way "I like dormitories". So yeh, that is how you spell it.
[Amy G] Welcome. I got back Sunday night from a Blake's 7/Babylon 5 convention in Hinckley, so that may give an idea of how silly I am.
[Amy G]Wotcha! As you can no doubt imagine, this is not my real name!
Get-away-from-it-all
[pen] You can't beat a spot of isolation. Helps you get a sense of perspective, I find. Although, unless you're a hermit, it's best if the isolation is of finite duration.
Staying in
For all those playing Celebdaq, the towers have issued a statement. From Friday the holding period for full divi payout is being reduced to three days (midnight Monday to midnight Thursday). This will be a great, treadwater over the weekend then take a leisurely decision on Monday afternoon. Hopefully story on the week should be evident by then.
[Raak] if I had known you were going to be away I would have recorded the rugby for you ;)
[Raak] if I had known you were going to be away I would have recorded the rugby for you ;)
Silliness
(Raak) I thought Blake's 7 was great. Always watched it. But that was then; this is now. Nice to know people are all a bit odd. Quotation from someone-or-other: "Normal people are those you don't know". Carry on. :-)
is cleaning the oven with no gloves on going to make my hands hurt for a while, or will it make the skin fall off totally? I washed them hard afterwards...
"washed" them, eh?
It depends what you washed them with.
[nights] And depends what you cleaned the oven with too.. They'll probably drop off, whatever you used. And why was a student cleaning the oven??? That's incredible.Are you feeling OK?
All sorts
[Amy G] Hello! Yes, we are all a bit eccentric, but sometimes we can be mildly amusing, so stick around.
[pen] Sounds like... fun...
[Raak] Hinkley? ;-)
[pen] Sounds like... fun...
[Raak] Hinkley? ;-)
I think...
...we scared Amy G of. Oops.
I must be dismebowelled!
of/ off/ eff!
On second thoughts, I'm not surprised in the slightest.
[Tuj] well ... apart from you and nights, we're all a bit fogeyish :-)
Oooh, me aching limbs...
[Chalky] Fogeyish? Me? You? Never! Now pass around the Werthers Original and let's have a nice cup of tea and a sit down.
St David's Day
Good morining all. Only scored one in quiz last night and today is looking drab and cold outside. Milk no sugar please.
[Botherer] Actually, just outside Hinckley, at a hotel off Junction 1 of the M69. And speaking of motorway junctions, there was a short film shown at the con, called "Blake's Junction 7", in which Blake's 7 are imagined as a family stopping at a service station at 3 in the morning. Filmed on location at the Newport Pagnell service area.
sounding off
F*cking spam f*lters. We have a new one at work, and not only has it taken out an email from my sister in the US, telling me whether or not the birthday present for my neice arrived, but also a motor industry press bulletin - probably talking about 'sexy cars' - and a load of message failure reports which I need to be able to measure the delivery of press releases I send out. Not only that, but I've found that when I email our IT guy to ask for the messages back, he doesn't f*cking respond. I've sent him a very terse email already this morning, and my ire is still up. I need coffee and cigarettes.
On the plus side, I can now tell you that my other sister (the one who married in October) is expecting a baby, and a chat friend in the US has sent me some over-the-counter wart treatment as a gift.
On the plus side, I can now tell you that my other sister (the one who married in October) is expecting a baby, and a chat friend in the US has sent me some over-the-counter wart treatment as a gift.
[pen] last time I turned the oven on it smoked out the kitchen and set the smoke detectors off. and figuring no-one else would do it, I did it. used mr muscle, and washed hands wih cidal afterwards. the skin is still there this morning so it can't be too bad.
I only just got up. I could do with coffee and cigarettes myself...
I only just got up. I could do with coffee and cigarettes myself...
handy
[nights] Mr Muscle? You wimp. I thought you were talking about caustic soda or sugar soap or something really evil and stinky. If that's all it was, your hands won't drop off, but it might exacerbate that limpness in your wrists.
My oven is "self-cleaning". It doesn't.
[Boolbar] Maybe it just has low standards of cleanliness.
Strangeness
What curious names people have these days. I just received an email from a chap called "Believer F. Management"...
[pen] oh thanks VERY much. just because I don't want to spend the whole evening cleaning... that's it. I'm going to go out tonight, I'll be in a bad mood, have a crap time and it'll be YOUR fault... you keep your implications to yourSELF!
[Raak] Ah, The Hanover International. Used to drive past it regularly. Preferred the Ullesthorpe Court replete with Golf Course me sen. You are excused... ;-)
Fogeyism
Chalky] I do my best to act fogeyish, 'specially if I look at the !York archives and see how awful my posts were back when I first ventured out into this place I know call home. (lies)
Hangover International Hotel
well that's what I read....
[st d] Maybe that's why they changed the name to the Hinckley Island.
is it bad that I needed red bull to get through that lecture? it's one of my OPTIONS for God's sake. I CHOSE to study it. wtf?
on the other hand I was playing tomb raider II till about 01h30... actually that's probably it.
on the other hand I was playing tomb raider II till about 01h30... actually that's probably it.
(nights) What lecture?
Eeeeooo, Red Bull. Is there anything natural in that at all - even water? I'd never touch the stuff but my girlfriend is still capable of using it as a mixer and downing several, which I cannot believe is healthy at all. You're storing up trouble for the future, young nights!
[Breadmaster] Red Bull contains taurine, which was originally extracted from cattle. (Hence the name. The myth that it came from bulls' testicles is just that - a myth. The substance is found all over the body.) These days it's synthetic.
Red Bull?!
Ugh! To me, it has always looked like, and smelled like, urine. I am, naturally, not about to pass any comment on taste...
Red Bull has its uses - ie when you're at the far end of the M6, and home and bed are at the southern end of the M40. But yes, it does taste revolting, and I can almost feel it dissolving my teeth as I drink it
One more question please
What did I do to deserve this? I took a crash course in using QuarkExpress today, and now I have to prepare a page layout with pictures and edit, for the first time. I only had four hours sleep last night (don't ask) and about five hours the night before (again, don't ask but the answer isn't the same as if you'd asked the first time when I told you not to). Plus, fifty per cent of my team is leaving on a three-week holiday to NZ tonight, and I can't leave the office before he finishes off what he has to do and hands over the rest to me... it's already 5.15pm and I am pooped. :o(
For what it's worth, I think Red Bull tastes quite nice.
Red bullocks
Red Bull does nothing for me really. On the other hand Lucozade... (or at a pinch Dr Pepper)
Lucozade is good stuff, and I love Dr Pepper too. I had some tonight.
Darren
Alarmingly phrased, that (edges away)
the lecture was french drama. something I normally enjoy. it tasted bizarre but I no longer had the overwhelming urge to put my head down on my notes and sleeeeeep. there was nothing in it natural, but it did the trick. so all's well.
pen
Can I suggest you stop carping on about it here and get on with it...? ;-)
[Botherer]You can. But I wasn't actually doing anything at work, other than waiting for the NZ-bound colleague to finish what he was doing; I thought I was too knackered to start anything of my own. Anyway, I had a good night's sleep, and it all looks completely different this morning - we've had a good covering of snow here in Sunny Hertfordshire, for one thing. I think this is the first time in six years I've worn a hat to go to work.
Was I carping? Sorry. I usually prefer to whinge.
Was I carping? Sorry. I usually prefer to whinge.
pan
Sounded more like a gripe to me :)
I'd have said it was more like bellyaching.
Cuss-tard
[pen] Have a slice of this delicious pudding that can't stop complaining. It's an Apple Grumble.
pun wars hoorah!
moaning
(pen) Stop going on about your petty work problems. I'll tell you what a problem is. Looking after a partially-demented and hallucinating, partially incontinent, fairly deaf, arthritis-ridden 93-yr-old mother 24/7. I can barely go out these days and have had to give up my Big Band as I cannot leave her for 3 hours in the evening. There is much else, involving doctors, geriatricians, social services, powers of attorney and fuck knows what. I am totally knackered. You've no idea how infuriating the extremely elderly can be or how unnerving it is to have to deal with someone who is having frightening hallucinations. The only peace is the wee small hours, which fortunately agrees with my night-owl nature. It can't go on and she is due for Respite Care, at least I hope. Respite for me, that is. A fortnight's freedom. But then . . .
Jeez Rosie - I didn't realise it'd got so serious.
It's bad enough having your social/recreational freedom restricted, never mind being confined to a space with a loved one who is slowly and inexorably becoming an unpredictable stranger - no wonder you're resentful.
Losing the Big Band thing must be particularly painful. I take it you can't get any cover for those 3 hours? I'm thinking - and this isn't as flippant as it sounds - wouldn't it be wonderful if there existed some sort of benign medication which, when administered, placed the patient in stasis. You could undertake all your filial obligations and when you need a break, pop her a pill, do your thing, and return with no harm done.
It's bad enough having your social/recreational freedom restricted, never mind being confined to a space with a loved one who is slowly and inexorably becoming an unpredictable stranger - no wonder you're resentful.
Losing the Big Band thing must be particularly painful. I take it you can't get any cover for those 3 hours? I'm thinking - and this isn't as flippant as it sounds - wouldn't it be wonderful if there existed some sort of benign medication which, when administered, placed the patient in stasis. You could undertake all your filial obligations and when you need a break, pop her a pill, do your thing, and return with no harm done.
[Chalky] I fear that as soon as someone invented such a pill, some people would spend 23 hours a day in stasis, especially in old folks' homes.
(Chalky) The stasis pill would be a wonderful idea, but there isn't one. The nearest one can get is if she's in bed, and she sleeps well but needs to get up rather a lot for wee-wees. This is not always a reliable process (say no more). Sometimes she goes to bed early and I feel I can pop out for a swift 2 pints and a natter but I don't feel I ought to put pressure on her to do so. She has quite enough brain left to hate her situation and the problems she knows she causes me and the hallucinations are largely but not completely suppressed with medication. I have to be an accurate pill-adminstrator, 8 a day, 3 different types. (Projoy) You're probably right. It would be the easy way out and I'd feel guilty using it.
Ageing
(Projoy) Just seen your contribution to "You know you're getting old . . ." So true. :-)
[Rosie] Your story inspired my comment. :)
[Rosie] I've stopped. And I'm in total (but useless, admittedly) admiration.
(pen) Well, don't stop entirely, but you know what I mean. :-) You may not think me so admirable if you could hear my muttered comments to myself as I go round the house.
[Rosie] In the general scheme of things, it's admirable. And cursing as you go around the house isn't bad, in the general scheme of things. I lost a parent to a long illness a couple of years ago, although my mother did most of the caring and my father was lucid and tolerant throughout. What we said to him, what we said to ourselves in private and what we said to each each other were different things.
(pen) Thanks. In some ways these things bring out the best in people and as few of us are saints we then have to let go a bit. This doesn't matter as long as we don't hurt anyone. The case of your father sounds very like my father's death, too. He was 83 and quite all there but his body had given up. Between me and my mother his impending death was taboo and in many ways still is, even after 25 yrs. He was a lot older than my Mum and born in 1895, would you believe.
No postings since Sunday night. I hope my sorry tale hasn't frightened people off. Come on, this is the banter page. :-)
In Other News...
[Rosie] I said something... then accidentally lost it, and was so frustrated, I didn't try to write it again - although it was along the lines of being amazed at two generations spanning three centuries - that's some feat. :o)
We're out of biscuits in the office :o(
We're out of biscuits in the office :o(
we're out of biscuits at home. lucky I'm not easting them for lent. in other news the work has kicked in again after roughly a month off so I'll be looking for some sympathy later this evening when it doesn't make sense anymore.
crumbs
* looks at stash of biscuits in his drawer - closes drawer - keeps quiet *
[nights] You'll get sympathy from me when I enjoy a month off, my lad! I don't recall that happening even when I was a student.
when I say off, I mean "without any major course-credit-carrying-assigments". I actually only had a week off university, some of which I spent on holiday with my parents.
[penelope, re: generations] My mother's father was born in 1870. She is 58 now.
(Projoy) So your grandfather was 76 when she was born. I'm impressed, not to say incredulous.
incredulity
[Rosie] I know that sounds unlikely, but remember that at the time of conception he was probably only 75. On a different note, can I add one more note of both sympathy and admiration for what you are doing. I freely admit to relief at having been spared that ordeal with either of my parents: my mother died fairly rapidly (and as these things go, relatively painlessly) of cancer, and my father of a heart attack just as it was starting to seem that he was going to need full-time care. I witnessed the alternative -- at a distance -- with both of my grandmothers, and it is obviously very difficult for everyone involved.
[Rosie] When I was at school, there was a boy there whose father was in his 80s. (I know it sounds like one of those silly school rumours, but you'll have to trust me that this one was true. Apparently the dad had plenty of money and the rest is history.)
[Rosie] Yep, your maths is right. It will perhaps ease your incredulity if I note that my grandmother was much younger than my grandfather (to the tune of just under fifty years, b. 1917).
Projoy] I bet he couldn't believe his luck!
[UK] By all accounts, he felt totally entitled to it. :)
(Projoy) Yes, I had to assume that. He must have been some fellow. (CdM) Thanks. One adjusts to each new little deterioration, up to a point.
Re: [15]
My firm has only recently rolled out a Spam Filter to stop us getting dozens of Spam messages inviting us to make money in our spare time, enlarge our organs, take temporary custody of large sums of money etc. These seem to come from people with very strange names. I had one today from "Alphonso T. Integers". I'm sure there's a game in this somewhere, waiting for someone with more imagination than me to institute it.
Alphonso T. Integers
[Kim] I think you've just given us the title of the game. Perhaps we could entertain each other by posting samples of real or imaginary spam messages?
Improbable names
Kim, Raak] I've been being deluged with these for over a year now on an e-mail address I can no longer use. It was quite amusing to start with, seeing the name on the message had been generated from two randomly-picked words from a dictionary, separated with a randon initial. However, the sheer weight of these meant I've had to look elsewhere for e-mail!
it's funny that I receive virtually no spam (well I get messages that people have addressed to the entire department instead of one group), which is either good fortune or the university having a good spam filter.
I was saddened to hear this morning that, as mentioned somewhere else in the Morniverse, that Dave Allen died on Thursday night . Whilst he hadn't performed for some time I have many fond memories of his shows. A great standup (well, sit down) comedian and coffee/beer/wine spluttering skit maker. I haven't had the pleasure of seeing any replays of his shows for far too long; I wonder whether they have dated. I've oft wondered whether his constant haranguing of the R.C. church has anything to do with his shows no longer being shown in this country. I think though that our local A.B.C. had the rights to his shows (though I am open to correction) so I suspect, until they finally shed the ultra-P.C. image which, in my opinion, they seem to exhibit, it will not happen.
Dave Allen
That's what happens when you give up smoking. I'm sure his attitude to the RC Church was that of the subversive insider. It was great stuff, but seems ages ago now.
dave allen
According to many obits I have seen it seems that the non-briadcasting of his old material was due to his having evidently signed off the right contracts and retaining control over them and not wishing them to be broadcast.
[st d] That's what I'd heard too. There has been a bit of speculation that we'll see reruns of his material now he's passed on.
spam-spammity-spam-spam
Hurrah! I have just had permish to dump the spam-and-profanity filter which was applied to our server a couple of weeks ago. So far, it has removed automotive industry press releases, blocked the delivery of commissioned photographs, wiped out a message from my sister in the US telling me that the birthday present to my neice had arrived safely, and finally, today, blocked access to a website belonging to the main Essex newspaper. F*cking filters!
obligatory newbie rubbish
What is the tag I should be using to mark a line through the page when I cap off a limerick or the like?
[Juxtapose] You want <hr>. No closing tag is required.
HTML tags
[Juxtapose] You'll find pretty much all you need at http://mustela.phyast.pitt.edu/basichtml.html. This site was raised by Dr Q+ to assist all us ingorami.
Whoops. Simulposted.
Mater
Mum went into an old people's home last Friday. I could just about cope but she'd become incontinent in the last week and that was just too much. I've visited her each day and she's now chatting to all the other old dears. This stimulus is good because at home she was bored and this tended to bring on the hallucinations. It's only supposed to be for a week, but she's now in the system and if they say she has to go back home (they won't, I'm pretty certain) I'll create an absolute stink. (Maybe not the best way of putting it). Thanks to all those who expressed sympathy. My freedom is more than tinged with sadness as I look around the house and see the various things associated with her. But time is a great healer. Just as well. :-)
Thanks, D+D. [rosie] It's tough to know what the "right" thing is in a situation like that, even when the "best" thing is clear. I've moved in with my grandmother to help her take care of my granddad who is in a similar situation. It's hard when someone you've known and loved all your life doesn't know who you are anymore. I'm glad your situation has resolved itself harmoniously.
[Rosie] Gosh - things have moved along very swiftly. I hope you've got lots of chums [apart from us lot :-)] to chat to.
[Juxtapose] Sounds as though you, too, are an unsung hero.
[Juxtapose] Sounds as though you, too, are an unsung hero.
Blimey. My mum's just bought herself a sporty new car, so I'm hoping it'll be a while before I have to contemplate what Rosie & Juxtapose are faced with. I think Rosie's mum might improvement in her new home - peer contact and a social atmosphere make a huge difference. My grandmother was always more talkative if she was in hospital on a ward full of similar ladies than when she was at home alone.
Can I go back to my normal whinging now? I think I need a holiday - or at least a break from work.
Can I go back to my normal whinging now? I think I need a holiday - or at least a break from work.
[rosie] I never know the appropriate thing to say, so I'll just send you a hug in the hope that it helps somehow.
(((((((((hug)))))))))
(((((((((hug)))))))))
mum's car
Last October was my mum's 70th so all the family gathered at the Old Bell in Malmsbury together with some of her friends from the past. Since then her short term memory has deteriorated. She is no longer able to cook a meal without help, my sisters who live nearby have coped really well as my father will visit with my mother for temporary respite and before the tension between them explodes into another argument. When having a telephone call last night I have to say "You saw Sian today ..." rather than ask, calls are long and repetitive. In January the DVLA wrote that she was no longer to drive and has been diagnosed with Alzheimers. Living nearly 100 miles away I play only a very minor role in the care of my mother, Rosie and Juxtapose I admire you for your care and dedication.
Let's hope that they don't succeed in abolishing NHS prescriptions for those drugs that alleviate Alzheimer's. They only help in around 40% of cases, but when they do they sound remarkably helpful.
The elderly
(Inkspot) That's really desperate and dispiriting, and at only 70. I can hardly imagine it and don't know what to say, it being so different from my own case. (pen) You're right, it's just what she needs, physically and psychologically. Mum drove a Mini up to the age of 88, BTW. (juxtapose) If you're a newbie I ought to tell you I'm a bloke. :-) You will cope more easily with two of you because you can talk about it together in another room. (Chalky) Yes, some good close friends, many acquaintances, good neighbours, the jazz mob, the Big Band players, you lot, and a very supportive family albeit at the end of long telephone wires (Hartlepool, Colwyn Bay, Chepstow, North London). (nights) Ooh, that was nice! er . . you are of the female persuasion, aren't you??
[Rosie] nights is a man.
[Darren] Yes, but he's young and he has long hair. It's hard to tell these days. *ducks*
[pen] why duck? I'd never hit you.
[rosie] yeah, I'm a man, man, but I'm very open with my hugs. hope that hasn't totally put you off me forever...
[rosie] yeah, I'm a man, man, but I'm very open with my hugs. hope that hasn't totally put you off me forever...
[nights] The first time I read that, I thought you said "legs" instead of "hugs." Just for a moment, it painted a very different picture.
[darren] would you STOP thinking about me? (grins)
Hugs
(nights) You may put a manly arm round my shoulder. Dunno why I thought you were female. Incidentally, Hugs, Hug and Huggies have been used as nicknames for me in the past. Indians in callcentres say "Mr Yewjis" or "Mr Hewgs", bless 'em. No prizes, and therefore no points, for guessing my surname.
Hugs 'R Us
I too fell into the trap of imagining nights to be female. Unfortunatley it was in the chat room - and the rotten sod didn't disillusion me! You will never, ever, be forgiven for that, nights. ;-)
[Rosie] I always figured your surname as being Canadian for a lumberjack.
[Rosie] I always figured your surname as being Canadian for a lumberjack.
Hugs 'n stuff
I understand that The Morniverse term for blokeish clasping is 'mabulating'.
CdM] Glad you're available for a round of AVMA :-) Are you mainly Singapore-based nowadays?
Btw - haven't spotted INJ for a while. Hope he and his flag can make it to Rugby again.
Limericks
sorry - me again.
Might it be a neat solution to keep the Furcation Game active by playing the Bifurcating Limericks in there? The current one will be quite a challenge and as I tackled the last one, I shan't be touching it!
The regular Lim Game can then return to quickies.
Might it be a neat solution to keep the Furcation Game active by playing the Bifurcating Limericks in there? The current one will be quite a challenge and as I tackled the last one, I shan't be touching it!
The regular Lim Game can then return to quickies.
[Chalky] Yes -- I am currently based in Singapore, though making occasional side trips to France, the US, and Thailand. We are probably going to be in France all summer though; any chance you will be visiting French relatives? :-)
I haven't been in touch with INJ for a few weeks myself, although I had noted his absence in the morniverse. Often it has to do with his work situation at any given time.
[Limericks] Yes, I hadn't actually meant to open a bifurcating can of worms like that. It was just that I posted an opening line that sounded very British, and so thought I should add the US equivalent and see what happened...
I haven't been in touch with INJ for a few weeks myself, although I had noted his absence in the morniverse. Often it has to do with his work situation at any given time.
[Limericks] Yes, I hadn't actually meant to open a bifurcating can of worms like that. It was just that I posted an opening line that sounded very British, and so thought I should add the US equivalent and see what happened...
Server
I started doing some bits and pieces on the server last night - for instance, I think I've fixed a couple of the 'networking broken after a reboot' faults and I installed an IMAP email server. Things may slow down occasionally (compiling/installing) and I'll need to reboot at times to test shutdown/startup procedures. I'll be doing upgrades to installed software as I go as well. I've no idea when, it certainly won't be tonight and probably not this week, but I thought I'd better warn in advance.
[chalky] good idea, but don't think I'll be trying my hand as I suck at complicated things.
[dujon] sorry.. (grins evilly) no, really I am sorry. I'm just naturally mean. ask my housemates.
[dujon] sorry.. (grins evilly) no, really I am sorry. I'm just naturally mean. ask my housemates.
Worm can-opener
Chalky] Will do
Rosie] Commiserations - I (very briefly) had to care for my mother before she went into hospital, and I supported a friend through a much more protracted caring. One of my conclusions was that you feel guilty whatever you do, simply because you keep feeling that there's more you should be doing. Another (and this is much easier to say than to do) is that you need to look after yourself to be able to look after her. Good luck.
Rosie] Commiserations - I (very briefly) had to care for my mother before she went into hospital, and I supported a friend through a much more protracted caring. One of my conclusions was that you feel guilty whatever you do, simply because you keep feeling that there's more you should be doing. Another (and this is much easier to say than to do) is that you need to look after yourself to be able to look after her. Good luck.
(Irouleguy) She's in the Care Home now, which is by far the best thing for her as she has mental stimulation as well as expert care. There is a slight tinge of guilt that I've "got rid of her" but everybody says that's absurd. Also, when she was at home I always felt a bit selfish about going out and eventually stopped almost entirely. Now, of course, it's a question of getting used to an empty house and re-motivating myself.
[Rosie] It's your job to get the most out of life. You have devoted a hell of a lot of time and care to your mother, and the guilt you feel is testament to the fact that you still have the desire to do that. Now you have organised the best possible care for her, you must have some fun - otherwise, what was the point? The care situation as it was proved to be bringing both of you down in the end, and the new situation is supposed to benefit both of you. Now you just have to do your bit, allow yourself some fun, and not feel guilty about it.
[CdM] yes - we plan to be in SE Paris end of July for my brother's birthday celebrations :-)
[nights] never mind, poppet.
[Irouleguy] I take it you're doing the honours? Good for you - I think mine was easier. Anyway, based on your 2 words, I've taken the liberty of starting a new quickfire limerick.
[Chalky] Hmmmmmm. Maybe we can arrange le premier pilg francais.
[CdM] yes! And if Les Premices isn't feasible - Sunday 17 July, location - a glorious garden in Sucy-en-Brie. I'll email nearer the time :-)
[Chalky] Could you send me a mail at andrewdotjohn@ayadotyaledotedu so that we can take this offline? (That is, unless there are other possible francopilgers.) Thanks.
(pen) Yes, I suppose I'm still in Care Mode even when I go and visit her and I hope it doesn't get up the noses of the excellent Care Staff. Probably not; they're very understanding. They don't see many men in there, which helps. :-) When I adjust to the change of circumstances I think things will be as good as they have ever been, but you can't just switch instantaneously - there's a degree of sadness. Thanks for your thoughts. :-)
[Rosie] Of course - it's not an instant switch. But just remember, it is allowed. Your mother will happy to hear your tales of jolly jazz-making when you visit, won't she?
Self-bifurcating limericks
The multiple-ended limerick has now been reposted in the bifurcation game, and awaits 32 final lines - which we could attempt collectively, rather than leaving them all to one person.
rab] Thank you, thank you for the HTML debugger - I'd never have done it without that.
Rosie] You'll probably stay in care mode for quite some time, but the simple fact that you're not doing it on your own will make it easier for both of you.
rab] Thank you, thank you for the HTML debugger - I'd never have done it without that.
Rosie] You'll probably stay in care mode for quite some time, but the simple fact that you're not doing it on your own will make it easier for both of you.
Furcatin'
I fear that the popularity of spiralling limericks could be the last nail for the Furcation Game as previously known.
still around
Nice to know I've been missed. The situation which led to it (no internet access at work, extra pressure at home sorting out my father's estate) is now easing, so I should soon be back up to speed.
[Chalky] I expect to be in Rugby - probably on the same basis as last year - Sat pm only.
[CdM] If there is a Franco-Pilg I may come and pitch a tent somewhere in your estate.
[Chalky] I expect to be in Rugby - probably on the same basis as last year - Sat pm only.
[CdM] If there is a Franco-Pilg I may come and pitch a tent somewhere in your estate.
most of the last several posts
Please sir (or madame): What's pilg?
[Knobbly] Pilg=short for pilgrimage. Pilgs are basically those times we all get together and meet up.
Pilging
[INJ] Splendid. In both instances :-)
Tert
Ignore
Tert - complete
[Nik] Beefy's seems to be about 10 minutes slow, which is reflected in the posting times displayed here...
... beefy's clock, I mean ...
tilting at windmills
It is fairly clear that goatherds have a systemic aversion to vagarious wanderings. Is this the result of genetic manipulation, I wonder? Perhaps a change of underwear is called for at this late stage
Grand Slam
A change of underwear is always recommended after one has worn them for the usual daily sequence back-to-front/inside out etc. Goats on the other hand are far as I understand leave a relatively sport free life compared to those of say sheep. However many of us feel goats need to be talked to and engaged in conversation. Goats can be receptive and should you meet any today on your wanderings try breaking the ice with by discussing with them Wales wining the Grand Slam, I tried this with the flock last night and stayed with me till morning.
Skew
[rab] Tut, you'd think a modern PC would keep time a little better than that, wouldn't you? Perhaps I should (sigh) include a timeserver daemon to keep it uptodate.
Notice
The server hosting my personal email and website seems to have dropped off the internet. We're investigating, but this could mean that if you've tried to email me in the last day or so, the mail might either take a day or two to get through, or get lost completely.
not for the first time I'm totally lost.
p*ssing into the wind
[rab] .. so all those naughty emails I've sent to you in the last couple of days have vaporised into the etherspherythingyplace? Oh bugger.
nights] never mind poppet
the goats win
I solved the problem this morning by wandering with them to Mornington Crescent. It was a bit crowded on the platform, however.
Being prepared
*starts spreadsheet programme to print out location of every clock in the household, including name rank and serial number, and containing instructions on how to change each come Saturday evening* For me this involves cranking them all forward by 23 hours. Yuk. I might, just might, have one with a plus/minus one hour switch (and if I do, I bet I didn't use it last time).
Just thinking about that.
I have six clocks in my workshop. Three normal clocks (one small one on each bench and one wall clock) plus one on a digital thermometer and two on telephones.
The house has seven normal clocks, two video cassette recorders (the DVD player doesn't have one), three clock radio units, one microwave oven, one on a digital thermometer and an inderminate number of watches - probably only three. I bet I've forgotten one or two as those are from memory.
The computers are set to automatically adjust.
That's over twenty adjustments to make. Eek!
I have six clocks in my workshop. Three normal clocks (one small one on each bench and one wall clock) plus one on a digital thermometer and two on telephones.
The house has seven normal clocks, two video cassette recorders (the DVD player doesn't have one), three clock radio units, one microwave oven, one on a digital thermometer and an inderminate number of watches - probably only three. I bet I've forgotten one or two as those are from memory.
The computers are set to automatically adjust.
That's over twenty adjustments to make. Eek!
Housemate update
Looks like Jerry paid a visit to my kitchen to do a poo last night, so I think I'll be down the shop to buy some bait. F!*k the humane approach...
clocks
[Dujon] Move to the tropics :-)
[Dujon] Stop measuring so much time. Why not use this weekend to get rid of half of them, and see if you actually notice a difference?
[rab] He will have eaten a load of your food AND done a poo. Make sure you keep all your food sealed away until you know you've got rid of him & all his friends. And wash everything down really well too.
This and that
Mum's place in the Residential Home has been confirmed - and it's brilliant. And . . . it won't cost a thing, courtesy of Surrey County Council, except they do take her pension and give her a bit of it back as pocket money. I'm typing this also courtesy of Surrey county Council, i.e. in Warlingham Library, because my computer is f*****. A young in-law decided that Uncle T should upgrade to Windows XP, and he's in the IT business. It doesn't work. Can't get on the Net or use the scanner or printer. Apparently you should put Windows XP in a clean hard drive and then transfer what you need from the old drive. A mate is going to do this and it's going to cost, partly because he too is in the business. Should be done in about a week.
Meece
[pen] Nearly all the food was in mouse-proof cupboards as it happens (i.e., high up off the floor, and with no obvious holes therein). There is a slightly worrying set of holes for the pipework in the cupboard under the sink. I can't cover these up easily, so I expect to find evidence of mouse in there... I intend to wash all the surfaces (and pans) before doing any cooking. As it happens, I think it would be difficult for a mouse to scale the units onto the worktops - but I wouldn't put anything past the bastards. Time to go home and see if the bait has been taken...
The bait's still there - and no poos as far as I can tell. But I think it's a bit soon to expect much yet. I imagine Jerry realises that this is not going to do him much good, and is probably biding his time until he's really hungry. As an aside, I'm quite surprised to discover such a huge range of products devoted to capture and extermination of mice. This I find reassuring and worrying by equal measure. On the one hand, it indicates the problem's a common one (and I feel less hideously unclean now). At the same time, though, it also suggests that few of these treatments actually work. I'll keep you informed.
As a further aside, I'm also amused that even the most painful-looking traps have pictures of cute fluffy little creatures with big eyes and nice round ears on them. It's rather like putting a cartoon pig on the outside of a packet of bacon.
[chalky] could you stop calling me poppet? you're reminding me too much of my mum, who has a habit of calling me poppet, despite me clearing six foot.
Work has destroyed my brain to such an extent that last night I dreamt about trying to print a cheque and products sounding like the animal they were designed for, and I keep on thinking I hear the tannoy go 'ping pong', and I freeze in anticipation of "Staff call, 'Nights', contact 257, 'Nights', 257, thank you", implying I've forgotten what time it is, I'm still in the canteen having a smoke and I was meant to be on the shop floor about ten minutes ago. argh, eh?
Work has destroyed my brain to such an extent that last night I dreamt about trying to print a cheque and products sounding like the animal they were designed for, and I keep on thinking I hear the tannoy go 'ping pong', and I freeze in anticipation of "Staff call, 'Nights', contact 257, 'Nights', 257, thank you", implying I've forgotten what time it is, I'm still in the canteen having a smoke and I was meant to be on the shop floor about ten minutes ago. argh, eh?
It's time
[penelope] Which was sort of my point. Why do I need so many bloddy clocks? Perhaps I'll adjust some of them with a hammer.
Nights dream
nights] Dreaming you're at work... yeeesh horrible horrible. Is it not enough for employers to steal your waking hours?
disclosure
[nights] I AM your mum. I'm just pretending I live in Salisbury.
Settling down
[Rosie] I hypothesise that you won't see this for a bit but I'll post it anyway.
Fantastic news, it really is. The pension/pocket money is a regular thing here but it might be wise to keep a bit of an eye on what she gets. There has been a number of 'shonky' operators of such establishments in this country. Still, if it's a council operated facility then, perhaps, you might not need to worry too much. I mention the last because my mother-in-law, who had a stroke, was confined to a so called 'nursing home' within the precincts of her local hospital. It was truly dreadful. Not the staff - at least not overall - but the facilites and the surroundings. I have the feeling that the only time she could get outside for a bit of sun and fresh air was when my wife or her sister (or me for that matter) visited.
[Chalky] Eee 'eck tha dun arf wurry me times.
Fantastic news, it really is. The pension/pocket money is a regular thing here but it might be wise to keep a bit of an eye on what she gets. There has been a number of 'shonky' operators of such establishments in this country. Still, if it's a council operated facility then, perhaps, you might not need to worry too much. I mention the last because my mother-in-law, who had a stroke, was confined to a so called 'nursing home' within the precincts of her local hospital. It was truly dreadful. Not the staff - at least not overall - but the facilites and the surroundings. I have the feeling that the only time she could get outside for a bit of sun and fresh air was when my wife or her sister (or me for that matter) visited.
[Chalky] Eee 'eck tha dun arf wurry me times.
I've been dreaming about seventeenth-century Russian religious history recently. Now that's grim.
C17 Russian religion
[Bm] Yes, I keep seeing icons too.
I dreamed about being on a narrowboat last night.
Last week I dreamt I married Ruby Wax. I can't explain that.
[Duj] worry not, my friend :-)
[chalky] in that case what are we having thursday night as I'm going to be home about 23h thanks to the M5. home for easter. wooooooo!!!!!!!
half term
Home for half term - don't forget the black bag in the corner full of dirty washing.
I'm told that mice are surprisingly savvy...
[Boolbar] Pshaw. What are they talking about? Intelligent children like me did play it properly. About four times. We even knew the rule that if (A) triggered (O) directly, the mouse automatically escaped!
Kindness
[rab] If you haven't already disposed of the beastie. Do you wish to kill the thing or catch it alive and release it somewhere other than your kitchen rather than zap the poor wee thing and have it die a lingering death with a broken back or neck? If so, I have used a wonderful device which works rather well. It's a commercial trap, quite cheap, which is formed from a square section of tubing, one end sealed the other with a spring loaded door. It is also bent. Bait (in my case a dob of peanut butter!) down the sealed end. Place on floor/shelf/whatever with door latched open beneath the device. Mouse wanders in and heads for the other end. Weight of mouse combined with gravity causes the 'far end' to rock back to level - it's the bent end which is elevated. Front end then rises - obviously - and allows the door to snap shut. Viola! one contained mouse. All that remains is to release the thing in an enviroment of your choosing.
killing by kindness
[Dujon] I have a long story (a shaggy mouse story, if you will) about my experience with those traps. Maybe I will come back and post it sometime...
update on the expedition home - the M5 was hideous, so we thought we'd try a different route, got hideously lost in Gloucestershire and ended up at home about when I thought. but at least I'm here, eating food prepared by someone else and spending good working time playing silly forum-based games. and I can do my laundry, thank you very much. I'm one of a very rare breed of students that know what a washing machine is and how it works.
Viola!
Dujon] Viola! I shall forever use that for "voila!" now. Was it intentional?
[Tuj] Bloody pedants! No, my friend, I just thought it was prettier. ;-(
[CdM] Your heading Killing by kindness suggests that I don't want to know. On the other hand, why not? It's been a bit quiet in here over the weekend.
Dujon] No offence intended. It is prettier!
:-)
[Dujon] I have caught a couple of mice with those see-saw traps, but you stop being nice when they start chewing through your wiring.
strings attached
[Tuj, Duj] Indeed, but there seems to be less scope for jokes about voila players ...
meece
Just make sure that you set them free a good distance from your home, as they tend to make their way back.. at least a couple of miles, in a nice park or field somewhere..
foolishness
I'm sorry I have to say this, because you're all obviously well-meaning - but don't you think that it's cruel to set a HOUSE MOUSE free in a park or field? House mice and field mice are two different animals. One lives in a field or park, the other lives in houses and barns. If you have House Mice, and don't want a re-infestation then just kill it quickly and mercifully, but fer gawd's sake don't set it free in a place that is so different to it's natural habitat... that's ridiculous. *mutters* Animal rights my arse
And don't forget those fluffy little creatures with the big eyes and the cute ears that come into your kitchen and scamper around playfully also PISS and SHIT everywhere. Yum.
[pen] Think of it as kindness to whatever non-house-infesting predator gets them.
Living in comfort
[penelope] Not a natural environment? Are you telling me that the 'house' mouse was suddenly created when the first house was built? I must do some research to fill up the gap in my education. Whilst, at this time, I agree that there are various varieties of the mouse I also believe they are wild creatures and can survive quite happily outside my home. As exhibit number one (well, there is only one): As a teenager I used to breed mice - the cute little white ones - and flog 'em off to provide me with pocket money. Regrettably the wonderful cage which I had custom built to house them and which was designed to fit nicely on my windowsill (my mother refused to let me keep them inside) developed a malfunction and finished eight feet down on the back lawn with the doors sprung. Within weeks mice found in the back garden were piebald.
[Inkspot] On the assumption that Celebdaq is effectively dead and on the understanding that you cannot kill it until each participant has effectively run the ropes to the quay I have removed myself from the crew. Thanks for your time and effort over its lifetime.
[Dujon] OK, then my advice (and always had been, truth to tell) is to slam them all on the head with a garden spade. Smash their little brains out. I was trying to phrase it delicately for the sake of the animal lovers who might read this, but phooey... sod 'em.
[penelope] That's a waste of life. What Dujon should do is shove them in the microwave for about 10 minutes each for a quick snack.
worry
[pen]I don't do that myself, but if someone is going to the trouble of a live-capture trap, I figured they wouldn't then want to send the mouse to its maker. Personally, I get my Jack Russell to worry them. Very quick death, although he growls when I don't let him chew on the body. Mouse guts everywhere? No thanks. AND I'm a vegetarian. But my dog isn't.
yeucch!
Look you lot - all this killing stuff is making me feel a bit queasy. In fact it's completely put me off the crispy fried mice ready meal I was about to microwave for my lunch ..
*groan*
daqing out
[Dujon]Sorry to see you leave the Daq you have been a good player taking your fair share of turns at No1. It could not have been easy being distant from the tabloid tittle tattle that runs Celebdaq. In the next few weeks I will update everything and tidy up some loose ends.
The daq continues to limp on despite the beeb dealing it a couple of knockout blows in the last few months. While it soldiers on, I play out of the MSN group CelebdaqBasements under the guise of Cleddau (Not the Ant Hill Mob)in a couple of Ultimate leagues run by Version 1.0.
The daq continues to limp on despite the beeb dealing it a couple of knockout blows in the last few months. While it soldiers on, I play out of the MSN group CelebdaqBasements under the guise of Cleddau (Not the Ant Hill Mob)in a couple of Ultimate leagues run by Version 1.0.
No mice, but crispy fried woodlice in a thin coat of batter slightly salted.
would you lot be quiet, I'll be afraid to eat from our local takeaway. that is NOT an invitation for a lot of 'do you know what's in takeaway' posts by the way.
good news, I got through work today without nearly bursting into tears.
good news, I got through work today without nearly bursting into tears.
[penelope] Yes, I figured you were taking the **ss. I couldn't resist the temptation to drag out my piebald mice story which, by the way, is quite true. I am averse to killing anything except mosquitoes but must admit that the last mouse caught - it was making a mess of my wife's potting mix of all things in the garden shed - became an uncooked meal for one of my son's pythons.
[nights] Remind me to tell you about the cockroaches in the microwave episode sometime. Mwhaaaaa. *cue music from the Twilight Zone*
[nights] Remind me to tell you about the cockroaches in the microwave episode sometime. Mwhaaaaa. *cue music from the Twilight Zone*
pythons
duj] that reminds me of a little girl who goes in to a pet shop and says, with a bit of a speech defect "hewwo, do you have any likkle bunny wabbits?" - the shopkeeper is charmed and plays up to the little girl saying "Wess we goo. Would woo like an ikkle bunny wabbit wiv bwig fwuffy ears and an ikkle cotton twail nice and fwuffy?" and teh girl looks at him and says "I don't weally sink my Boa Constwictor gives a sthit"
Trivia
[Inkspot] I removed myself feeling that you might wish to clear the decks. If you are going to continue then by all means add me back in. The details are Dujon2774 (User ID: 3256726). Don't break your back, though. There're only a few of us left.
s'not the same without ...
... Rosie :-(
Da-daaaaaaaaaa!
That was remarkably prescient, Chalks, seeing as I only got the 'puter back about 6 this evening and, miraculously, managed to set up Broadband with the minimum of oaths. Great to be back. Now, this Rugby thing; are there any places left? What does it cost? How long does it last? Should I change my underwear? Anything else I should know?
Hello
Good to see you back, Rosie. I was a'feared the enforced break may have made you reasise that M.C. wastes too much valuable time (like all time isn't valuable, it's a bit like saying 'I spent good money on that').
Eh?
I was just looking at the BBC main news site and came across this somewhat worrying juxtapostion of links.
* Pope John Paul II clings to life
* Mother-in-law's killer jailed
What's going on in the Vatican these days?
* Pope John Paul II clings to life
* Mother-in-law's killer jailed
What's going on in the Vatican these days?
Rugby
[Rosie] Yes, you should change your underwear. Other things you should know: Russia has an area of approximately 17,075,200 kmsq.
Juxtaposition of links
RugbyPilg
[Rosie] Yes - you're coming :-) I'll email you tomorrow with all the details.
The size of things
(Projoy) Oh, everybody knows that. And I used to know the area of Surrey, viz. 722 sq mi. But it keeps losing its north-eastern bits to London. Has less of a Fringe on the Top, you could say. (Chalky) OK, thanks.:-)
Surrey to hear that
Rosie] Surely some of the bits that Surrey lost were Morden just a fringe?
hoorah pun wars...
bad timing or what?
I'm off to rome tomorrow on study tour, then on to Pompeii and Herculaneum...in spite of Johnny Paul himself dying at the very thought, there I shall be. I apologise if my hostel in Rome doesn't have the internet - if that is indeed the case, feel free to play on with the AVM game without me, I'll just have more questions to answer when I come back :)
old Surrey
(Irouleguy) Ewell be sorry you said that. Waddon earth are you playing at?
oh hello ZK. send us a postcard, c/o North Wales.
Rugby stuff
[Rosie] email sent.
[Bob the dog] Hope you're around - we have work to do :-)
[Bob the dog] Hope you're around - we have work to do :-)
updates on aches
Monday morning AGAIN... it comes round so quickly! My arms ache from scarifying the grass at home (vigorous raking to remove moss and dead thatch with a sprung rake). I've done about a quarter of the total so far, including re-seeding the bald patches it creates. Further to that, my legs ache for deciding to take yesterday afternoon off from scarifying and wander through London instead. I parked at Dolphin Square in Pimlico and walked, with a friend, up to Covent Garden and back again. We only stopped at two pubs...
My grandfather has just died of a heart attack after a fall. Totally shocked and upset.
[Rab] You have my sympathy. Family deaths are hard enough when it's expected.
Dreadful news, and a huge shock, I would imagine. *hugs*
That was me
How awful, I wrote rab's name instead of mine.
Rab
Really sorry to hear that - condolences and *hug*
[rab] Also sorry to hear that. These sorts of things always take you by surprise. My grandfather just came out of hospital after a fall down his stairs (he'd been lying at the bottom for two days before he was found).
Thanks everyone for your kind words.
rab] Condolences too. Looks like it's shaken up pen too.
[rab] it's been said, but my condolences are with you and your family. *hug*
back in
[rab]Sorry to hear of your sad news.
[Dujon]You are back in the chase.At the moment I'm chasing the Royals as they seem to be in a bit of disarray.
[rab] My sympathy flies o'er the seas to put a hand on your shoulder. Having lost all my antecedents other than my Mum I know only too well that it's never easy. Chin up.
[Inkspot] Ta. Me too, share prices vary wildly but the dividends should be good with the wedding coming up.
[Inkspot] Ta. Me too, share prices vary wildly but the dividends should be good with the wedding coming up.
[Rab] aww - that's very sad news. Sounds as though he was much loved so I hope he had a happy life.
*lights too many joss sticks in one go on the mantelpiece and ponders*
Daq yeild techie talk
[Dujon] Even after all this time I am still learning new things about Celebdaq. Each week I regulaly use JJB’s dividends and returns tools. Last week the guy was Top Trader and reading the interview another penny dropped; yes even after all this time. Up to now I have been looking at Potential Total Gain and Pot Dividend, how wrong have I been. It turns out in his dividend report there is a column “Pot Yeild” this is ratio of price against dividend. This is the column I need to take note of which means buying a low priced celeb not necessarily that with the hightest pot. gain. It would appear that this weeks best buys on Monday were Jamie Oliver (212%) or Vic Reeves (210%) rather than my current holding, Prince William (141%).
I am going to try this out next week just to see, and as long as I buy before midnight on Monday and hold on till Friday there should be a handsome % gain
I am going to try this out next week just to see, and as long as I buy before midnight on Monday and hold on till Friday there should be a handsome % gain
[rab] *adds sympathies to the pile*
professional angst
What can you do with a client who wants you to do lots of press releases for him and his organisation, but when you do get them ready, he's too disorganised to sign anything off in time, then panics about how late everything is and so avoids opening your emails, reading your faxes or taking your phone calls until it's really too late to put out the news? *grinds teeth in frustration*
professional gangsta
Where is 'e, pen? I'll deck 'im.
[pen] seconded. I'm in a violent mood so me and my size twelves will go and see him.
[Nights'n'Chalks] The idea is to keep the account...
OK - keep the account - lose the loser.
Back to plan A. Me and nights'll sort him, like permanently. His staff probably hate him as well so they'll thank us for the deed, as will you when you find he's been replaced by a considerate but not ingratiating, organised but not anal, phonecall answering fax reading email opening, townhouse AND country retreat owning, National Trust member, recently singled so a bit lonely and needs to get back into the dating thingy, gregarious, amusing, clean smelling, looks-don't-matter-but-not-too-smooth-and-oily [the occasional crooked tooth is always a good sign], spontaneous, generous, PR lady-obsessed, 30-something ...
Back to plan A. Me and nights'll sort him, like permanently. His staff probably hate him as well so they'll thank us for the deed, as will you when you find he's been replaced by a considerate but not ingratiating, organised but not anal, phonecall answering fax reading email opening, townhouse AND country retreat owning, National Trust member, recently singled so a bit lonely and needs to get back into the dating thingy, gregarious, amusing, clean smelling, looks-don't-matter-but-not-too-smooth-and-oily [the occasional crooked tooth is always a good sign], spontaneous, generous, PR lady-obsessed, 30-something ...
[Chalks] Sounds perfect. When can you do it? And what should I wear for the first date meeting?
Chalks] Thats me! Apart from the single status and organised bit. Anyway, I'd rather be creatively unsystematic than anal any day...
Bob the creativebutnotsingle dog
... and there I was, singing your praises in the Orange Pilg Game - the youngsters are getting restless ...
Youngsters?
I know, bless them, but things is all under control - in my usual creatively unsystematic way... (casts another surreptitious glance at a passing PR lady and gets rapped on the knuckles by NotmrsBobthedog).
I have decided that this year I am NOT going to panic quite as much as I did last year. Excuse me, a PR lady has just arrived and I must talk to her about something that has been on my mind...
*dishevels*
Yippeee! Friday. Twenty minutes to go. I am sooo gonna big up the snooooze when I get home.
excuse me while i shout excitedly that IT'S SATURDAY AND I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO WORK WOOOOOTTT!!!!
sorry about that. but i'm excited that it's nearly midday and I'm still in bed.
sorry about that. but i'm excited that it's nearly midday and I'm still in bed.
The slack life
nights] You know when it's holiday time when you're woken up by the sound of an ice cream van.
[nights, Tuj] And the dawn chorus stops you from getting to sleep.
It's all so clear now.
I've found out why this site keeps having problems! The truth is here.
[tuj] we have an abnormally large amount of ice cream vans around by us. I keep thinking they play 'tubular bells' but it's actually 'greensleeves'. but an ice cream van playing tubular bells would be excellent. if slightly creepy.
cool sites
their is a hot site called castlesofspirits.com go their if you dare. if u cant sleep at night not ma fault.they show u hot to levitate people and how to play and make ure own quija board. theirs also pics of real spirits.for those who dont believe in ghosts u got to c it to believe it.
i wanna say hi to ma people in elizabeth nj.and ma enemies they can go down to u know where especially KRITZIA. kritzia i cant stand u.
Gosh, I really need a quija board! I've still got all the quija pieces, but of course I lost the board so I can't play the game any more.
Saul's Kites
I went to a seance on Thursday night, as it happens. It was good fun, and we managed to contact the spirits who played around with some objects on the table, banged it a few times and then buggered off. All in the name of scientific research of course.
Meanwhile, my ongoing battle with Jerry continues. I was always suspicious that the bait hadn't been taken and in fact all it did was make him tiptoe more lightly around the kitchen. Confirmation came after I scattered a little flour on the floor, expecting to find ickle paw-prints in it the next morning. Sod that - he came and ate the whole bloody lot! So the snap traps came out, and again he's proved himself to be a canny bugger and has steadfastly avoided them (despite one of them fitting snugly inside his entry channel).
It turns out that the right thing to do is to call the landlord's agents, who have a dedicated mouse man who'll come out, do a thorough investigation and block up all the hole. So this should all be over soon I hope...
Jerry
[rab] Have you not considered Tom ? Have you a friend with a moggy you could borrow ? One night would probably dod the trick.
Dr Mouse is coming to visit at lunchtime, so we'll see what he does.
Dave's squirting stuff in my holes as we speak.
[rab] That's more than I wanted to know.
Dave was fab! Tracked down all the mouse activity, and took the belt and braces approach of sealing their entry points and slapping down not one, not two, but three different types of bait. He does a repeat visit next week to seal up the one remaining hole (which is there to let anyone out who might have been hiding in the airing cupboard) and laugh in the face of dead rodents.
there were little trays of rat poison on the floor when we moved into our house. they're still there. I'm not sure if this is good or bad.
I won't be e-pilging this evening, I'm going to an open mic night because a friend of mine is going to get up and do some damien rice and some of his own stuff. my housemates and I will sit at the back and clap supportively, or get rat-arsed, one of the two. actually probably both.
I won't be e-pilging this evening, I'm going to an open mic night because a friend of mine is going to get up and do some damien rice and some of his own stuff. my housemates and I will sit at the back and clap supportively, or get rat-arsed, one of the two. actually probably both.
richard wiseman
rab ] I am assuming that that isn't the same Richard Wiseman who is head of the Legal Department at Shell ? I met him once - very nice chap, but looked like he had been washing himself in money.
[st d] How does someone look when they have been washing themselves in filthy lucre? Pretty grubby, I'd expect.
[st d] I'm guessing not.
of Mice and Men
(rab) Your "ongoing battle with Jerry" makes me think of those old farts (and not-so-old farts) who cannot accept that WW2 ended some time ago.
It did? Blimey.
I have just accidentally tipped coffee over a particularly hated job bag containing piece of work which I have taken a week and a half longer to complete than I should have done, purely because I don't like doing it. This makes me believe that malevolent forces exist on Wednesday mornings. Unfortunately the coffee also went over my leg.
oops.
[pen] Have you noticed how coffee expands when freed from the constaints of a cup/mug? One knocked over mug of coffee can flood an entire desk, soak into reams of paperwork and fill a couple of drawers.
nassssty coffeeses
.. and possibly does the most damage when deftly tipped over a computer keyboard where it completely disappears!
[pen] a job bag, eh? Reminds me of my student hols when I worked on a geriatric ward ..
sorrysorrysorry - I'm just talking shite, as usual
Washing the desk
And remember that if you do spill coffee on your desk: save the phone and the papers before worrying about the keyboard (keyboard £20, phone £200 if it's a clever one, papers probably several hours of your time).
I think job bags exist to protect their hated contents from coffee. The papers within are only soggy along one edge. The coffee in my keyboard was soaked up by all the crumbs already in there. My phone was protected by a layer of papers. In other news, I was taken out for lunch today by my boss. And no, I'm not about to lose my job :o)
Scientists have observed that coffee is 20-30% more spillable than tea.
[rab] can you quote your source?
R. A. Blythe (2005) Private communication.
Rabbit Sauce
Pen] He lies. Check out so help me God.
bidding frenzy
I am currently in a bidding frenzy on ebay for a batch of whopping great blue, football-sized Agapanthus flowers with which to beautify my garden come the summer, when I'm having a Birthday Garden Party. I also bought some other stuff this morning, and I should win another one this afternoon for violet Surfinias. I just had to tell someone - no-one in the office is interested and it's soooo exciting.
e-Bay-Gum
[pen] It is exciting when it gets to the last minute and you are still the highest bidder. I was outbid twice in the last 3 seconds on one occasion. Selling can be frustrating though. I had 8 people watching one item and I only got one bid in the end.
Hmmm, should I bid on those Surfinias . . . . .
[Boolbar] Don't you dare!!
much, much later...
The blue Surfinias are mine, MINE, ALL MINE!!! mwahahahahahahah!
Blue
Surfinias? Are you sure they aren't the Smurfinias - the little blue characters with bleached hair and a funny hat riding a surf board? I suppose they'd still make cute garden gnomes.
[pen] we're excited for you. interior design is a worryingly popular thing in our house. our favourites list on our cable box runs 'sky one', 'UKTV Gold', 'sky sports news', 'UKTV Style' - whu?
The only interior design I did as a student was pinning up posters and checking down the back of every settee in every house I lived in for loose change and valuables. Only ever found forks stuck about with Nuttalls Mintoes though.
chuckworthy
pen] I read that as ".. and chUcking down the back of every settee in every house ..." :-)
nights] Exterior design, shurely?
'sit Rover
So Rover has come finally to the end of car production. Although I am sad to see an end to 6,000 jobs and all the supporting industry. It has been a slow motion car crash and inevitable as Phoenix tried to maintain the existing levels of mass production. My hope is that the administrators will come to an agreement with someone like Alchemy do build a niche market MG even though this will be with a much reduced workforce.
This weekend will be further decoration of the living room. As background I tune the Freeview box to digital radio, lots of channels but end up listening to 6Music. I tried Q but after hearing The Waterboys for the third time in as many days and accident lawyers, next stop is Kerrang!
Sic transit Rover
You can't imagine the French government allowing Renault or Citroen to go bust or the Germans BMW, Audi or Daimler, can you? So how seriously does the government take manufacturing? Not very, as we all know.
Rover
Why pay them to make what no-one wants to buy?
I don't see what more the government can do. They've offered big injections of cash, they've tried to broker a deal with the Chinese car company... If a private company cannot compete and goes under, it's not the government's responsibility to keep it afloat any more than it is anyone else's. I think it's pretty good that they did as much as they did.
Why should the workforce get screwed over for management's incompetence (and squirreling away of large amounts of cash from the company, from some reports)? And if Rover cars really can't be sold, turn the production lines over to something useful, like public transport.
[Irouleguy] Exploring the possibilities of keeping the business going is precisely the administrators' job. But in the end, if they can't find anyone who wants to run it and has a credible business plan, it goes under. That is unfortunate for the former employees, but losing out when the people you work for fail is one of the risks of any sort of employment.
I have never understood the fetish about manufacturing. I mean, Rover makes a car in the midlands. Fine. But if you want to buy the car in Glasgow, say, then you need someone to transport it, which means a services sector. And then you want to buy it, and you probably don't have several thousands pounds in cash on you, so you need a bank, which again means a services sector.
The point is that the product that interests you is not a car sitting on a lot hundreds of miles from you that can only be purchased for cash on the nail. It is a car available for delivery in Glasgow in exchange for a bank draft. And that requires services every bit as much as it needs manufacturing.
The point is that the product that interests you is not a car sitting on a lot hundreds of miles from you that can only be purchased for cash on the nail. It is a car available for delivery in Glasgow in exchange for a bank draft. And that requires services every bit as much as it needs manufacturing.
That's funny
In Glasgow I thought they just nicked them. Oh well, live and learn.
Raak] Unless the government steps in and does something, like nationalise it. Governments used to do that here, and they still do on the continent and elsewhere. When exactly did it get written that the market has the absolute power to screw us all over?
[Irouleguy] I.e. subsidise it with other people's money. When exactly did it get written that every incompetently run business has the absolute power to put a trowel into my pocket?
(Raak) When the railways were privatised, amongst other instances. The Government subsidy to Train Operators and Rolling Stock Leasing companies is huge, and vastly more than was available to BR. Large amounts of public money disappear into private profit. So the true answer to your question is; "when the current political dogma has to be satisfied". There's a lot of it about, worldwide, and always has been.
jobsworth
Littlewoods is shedding 3000 jobs and closing most of its 'Index' stores. Will there be a march on parliament and hundreds of millions of pounds in government aid?
No work today
Raak] What Rosie said, plus the Common Agricultural Policy (which puts your money and mine into the pockets of the royal family!), the Export Credit Guarantee Department (which ensured that when arms manufacturers flogged stuff to Saddam Hussain and he didn't pay up that you and I paid for it), the 'guarantees' given to PFI contractors....
Easy money
(Irouléguy) I was going to mention all that, so I'm glad you did. Also, many countries practise protectionism. A typical example (the legally-enforceable Buy American policy of many US institutions) cost me my job in 1998.
it's early and I'm tired
Also it doesn't help that the average CEO's salary has risen to a truely incomprehensible sum. Oh, your company is out of money? Mayhaps it's because you were paying yourself thirty million dollars a year for a job consisting largely of assigning yourself more stock options. Fortunately you'll never feel the sting of unemployment because you write yourself off as a personal corporation for tax purposes and you don't need one of those silly retirement accounts because you have more money than King Solomon. Sadly four thousand people have lost their honest, hard-working jobs, but if they're that honest and hard-working I'm sure they'll land on their feet.
...
On a separate note, I want to see someone jump twenty motorcycles with a full size bus.
...
On a separate note, I want to see someone jump twenty motorcycles with a full size bus.
goodbyeee
hello everyone, since university work is building up and building up at an alarming rate, I don't really have time to keep playing MC, sadly. I hope to be back in the summer, but for now I'll say goodnight and hope you all have a LOT of fun in Rugby. (crossposted)
Good prince sweet nights
Take care, even us new fellows will miss you.
[Rosie, Irouléguy] But your examples really just support Raak's point. Raak says "we shouldn't subsidise companies that make stuff that no-one wants to buy". Your response seems to be "we should, because, look, here are lots of other ridiculous cases where the government subsidises companies that make stuff that no-one wants to buy". Raak would respond (I guess) "Absolutely. Scrap the CAP and export guarantees and all of those other stupid policies as well". In other words, in rebutting Raak's rhetorical point ("when exactly did it get written...") you end up buttressing his substantive point.
Which raises the question: is having people out of work "bad" for the wider economy? (It's obviously "bad" for those people who aren't being paid, but the economy doesn't care about people so that's an irrelevant concern). If the answer is "yes", is it right for a government to find ways to get people into employment?
There is a simple (simplistic?) argument that goes that it's cheaper and better for the economy to have a person producing 1000 units of value to the economy and paying them 1500 units to do so if the alternative is to pay them 1000 units to do nothing. This means government intervention and subsidy, because although it's good for the economy it's bad for any individual employer.
I know there are all sorts of arguments about market distortion, structural inefficiencies, impact on long-term competitiveness etc. (I'm sure CdM can come up with plenty of them). And yet it seems to me there's still a fundamental truth in there which those arguments don't eliminate - especially if aid and subsidy is carefully aimed and time-restricted.
Having said that, Rover was dead in the water 5 years ago and the 6000 working there have had 5 years more work and pay out of it than they had any right to expect. It is not a suitable recipient for further aid in its present form or on its present site. All the government can do is help to manage the transition to other jobs for the people concerned.
I know there are all sorts of arguments about market distortion, structural inefficiencies, impact on long-term competitiveness etc. (I'm sure CdM can come up with plenty of them). And yet it seems to me there's still a fundamental truth in there which those arguments don't eliminate - especially if aid and subsidy is carefully aimed and time-restricted.
Having said that, Rover was dead in the water 5 years ago and the 6000 working there have had 5 years more work and pay out of it than they had any right to expect. It is not a suitable recipient for further aid in its present form or on its present site. All the government can do is help to manage the transition to other jobs for the people concerned.
[rab] Every day out of work for someone who is able to work is a day's labour lost forever. Labour is the most perishable commodity there is. The fewer people who work, the less stuff is created. So yes, having people out of work makes us all poorer. Of course, I'm taking the view that the more stuff we have (including intangibles such as art and clean streets) the better; someone who takes the opposite view, that the less stuff we have the better, like some extreme environmentalists, would presumably want to see unemployment rise as high as possible, and will be celebrating that a manufacturer of evil machines has finally gone out of business.
[rab] You also take the view that all jobs result in "stuff being created," which isn't necessarily true.
[Darren] Do I? Or did you mean Raak?
[Darren] Assuming you meant me, yes, there are unproductive jobs, such as, according to the stories, a lot of the management jobs at Rover. Paying people a fat salary to do nothing does nobody any good, including the people paid the fat salary.
Yes, I meant Raak. Sorry about that.
CdM] You're right in that I wasn't defending the practices I listed (and I'm pretty sure Rosie wasn't either). The point we were making was that it's a conscious political choice for the government to let Rover go to the wall, and that this is a bad thing. I'd echo most of INJ's and Raak's answers to rab, as well. I think it is the government's responsibility to do something about employment.
There's a really lovely argument in Peter Singer's The President of Good and Evil against the "it's my money" position re: tax (and by extension re: interventionist economic policy), which I'm now going to have to dig out and mention. There we go, the book was useful for something after all.
[Projoy] That should be interesting. It is my money. By what right does he claim the government gets to take a cut of every business transaction?
[Irouléguy] By that reasoning, pretty much everything is a conscious political choice. Your local newsagent closes down? Conscious political choice -- the government could have paid them two million pounds to stay open. You chose to go onto the internet today? Conscious political choice! -- the government could have bribed you not to.
If you want to make an argument for why the government should intervene in this particular case (and a good argument has to be one that also explains when the government should not intervene), then that's fair enough and I would be interested to hear it. I have to say I think Raak's summary is the appropriate one here, though: Rover were making something that people didn't want to buy. The End.
(On the other hand I disagree with Raak on the 'it's my money' argument, but I think that is a whole different debate.)
If you want to make an argument for why the government should intervene in this particular case (and a good argument has to be one that also explains when the government should not intervene), then that's fair enough and I would be interested to hear it. I have to say I think Raak's summary is the appropriate one here, though: Rover were making something that people didn't want to buy. The End.
(On the other hand I disagree with Raak on the 'it's my money' argument, but I think that is a whole different debate.)
CdM] I don't think the first point follows at all. The closure will cost something like 5,000 jobs at Longbridge, plus up to 15,000 in suppliers - that's up to 20,000 wage packets taken out of the local economy, which will then have a further knock-on effect across the West Midlands. Any government would have to take a position on an economic event of that magnitude. The tens of thousands of people whose lives are blighted is why the government should intervene - and I don't see why a coherent case for that depends on saying that if it were a different set of people the government shouldn't. Obviously I don't think every failed small business is a case for government intervention, but I think that's something of a straw person.
As for Rover making something that no-one wanted to buy, again some exaggeration: Rover couldn't sell enough of what it produced to persuade the people with the money to invest in it, which is a rather different matter. And then there's the little matter of the £500 million hole in Rover's finances (allegedly). Taking the money and running comes to mind.
As for Rover making something that no-one wanted to buy, again some exaggeration: Rover couldn't sell enough of what it produced to persuade the people with the money to invest in it, which is a rather different matter. And then there's the little matter of the £500 million hole in Rover's finances (allegedly). Taking the money and running comes to mind.
I actually think this Government is being quite brave in letting Rover die. 30 years of government subsidies of BL et al has failed to produce a company that comes close to making a profit, let alone a decent product. Whilst I fully accept Irouéleguy's argument is pertinent, that volume of investment would shirley be better placed in other sectors where there was a chance of making it work? And to do this in the run in to a general election is, perhaps, unprecedented. And before the accusations fly, I do not (and have only once) vote(d) Labour.
But I do work for a rival car company...
But I do work for a rival car company...
[Irouléguy] Something like 300,000 businesses close down in the UK each year (the vast majority of them small businesses). Even if those companies are all single-person enterprises, that's 300,000 jobs, plus I don't know how many suppliers, not to mention further knock-on effects across the entire country. Any government would have to take a position on an economic event of that magnitude. The hundreds of thousands of people whose lives are blighted is why the government should intervene.
I don't think small business failure is a straw person at all. Tell me why Rover should be bailed out, as opposed to 5,000 randomly selected small businesses.
I don't think small business failure is a straw person at all. Tell me why Rover should be bailed out, as opposed to 5,000 randomly selected small businesses.
Please accept my humblest apologies for the cross posting. The new Rugby event games have now been posted here - or if the link doesn’t work – in the Orange Pilg Game.
The sleepover event, entitled That Went Off Very Well, looks as if we have a record number of players – but more are always welcome. Kind regards, James the dog.
The sleepover event, entitled That Went Off Very Well, looks as if we have a record number of players – but more are always welcome. Kind regards, James the dog.
Rover
I used to have a P6. It were lovely. I know it isn't "mass production" but we are still (we = uk) making world class cars to wit, the TVRs of Blackpool, and from Kensington, the humble BRISTOL. Check out the "FIGHTER".
Rover
I must say I'm entirely with CdM on this one. And not just because I don't like cars, either. Last time I got made redundant, the government didn't step in with a cash injection to my company so it could keep me on. But it did provide benefits until I found a new job. I'd have thought that the task of the government in cases like this is to try to help people back into work - which this government has done admirably with its various schemes - rather than artificially subsidise a company that clearly isn't going anywhere. If you think that it should do that, then at what point do you call it a day? Would Rover still exist in 50 years' time as a bizarre, quaint hangover from the past, pointlessly making useless things, a kind of manufacturing Sisyphus, paid for by the government simply because it's a grand old institution, like the monarchy? I'd say that if there is a point at which you just can't do any more, and surely there is, then that point has been reached.
Hi all! Sorry about the AVMA débacle. I really rather thought there'd be internet in ONE of the hostels I was staying in. But alas, twas not to be. Looks like it's going at a rollocking pace since I left though so I shan't intefere :)
[Raak] Sorry, I haven't looked it up yet and I can't remember all the details of the argument off the top of my head. I'll try and find it and post it for critical review here, as I found it pretty persuasive I must admit. (BTW, aren't you a hardline utilitarian too? The Rover argument hints that you are.)
Mm. On second thought, maybe it doesn't. I think the gist of the Singer argument on tax is that we all subsist within superstructures of wealth, and that "your" money wouldn't buy you anything without those superstructures, and those superstructures have costs that you don't generally pay directly, but you can, sort of, in a way, if you will, pay them indirectly via tax. But as I say, I don't remember the detail and may have that wrong.
hardlining
[Projoy] I've always thought of Raak as more of a libertarian. But I would be interested to know how he describes himself. As for "whose money is it anyway", variants of that kind of argument certainly predate Singer. Broadly speaking I take the view that our ability to transact is only secured by governments that protect property rights, enforce contracts, jail muggers (unless they are managing large corporations, of course), that kind of thing. The social contract that we agree to is that, in return for these guarantees, we accept that governments have the right to tax us. And once that right is established, there are then good public policy arguments for various kinds of taxing and spending by government. That's pretty loosely articulated, but then it is very late here in Singapore. :-)
[CdM] Libertarian, definitely. And there is a libertarian answer to the question of how things could work without governments, for which see David Friedman's book The Machinery of Freedom (which I haven't read, but I have read a lot of his postings to Usenet). He has a web site with related essays and sample chapters from the book.
The problem with the social contract idea is that it isn't a contract in any reasonable sense of the word. I don't have a choice about it (beyond emigrating to live under someone else's social contract) and its terms are nowhere defined. In practice, they are defined as obligating people and governments to do exactly what the person invoking it thinks they ought to do. It's as empty as religionists explaining how the elephant got its nose by saying God made it that way.
[Projoy] I don't see there (in the "Compassionate Conservatism and Tax Cuts" section) any argument that these things must be done by governments, only the unsupported assertion accompanied by (to borrow an epithet he uses a few sentences later) a simplistic caricature of the idea. So where he says that "it's our money" is a simplistic and indefensible way to think about tax, I would say it's a simplistic and defensible way to think about tax.
Something that might be worth reading alongside Singer's utilitarian writings is C. S. Lewis' The Abolition Of Man.
The problem with the social contract idea is that it isn't a contract in any reasonable sense of the word. I don't have a choice about it (beyond emigrating to live under someone else's social contract) and its terms are nowhere defined. In practice, they are defined as obligating people and governments to do exactly what the person invoking it thinks they ought to do. It's as empty as religionists explaining how the elephant got its nose by saying God made it that way.
[Projoy] I don't see there (in the "Compassionate Conservatism and Tax Cuts" section) any argument that these things must be done by governments, only the unsupported assertion accompanied by (to borrow an epithet he uses a few sentences later) a simplistic caricature of the idea. So where he says that "it's our money" is a simplistic and indefensible way to think about tax, I would say it's a simplistic and defensible way to think about tax.
Something that might be worth reading alongside Singer's utilitarian writings is C. S. Lewis' The Abolition Of Man.
Yes, obviously the argument is worked through a bit better in his book. But regarding the social contract, I'm more with CdM, on the assumption that when he says "we agree" he's using it as shorthand for "we accept perforce as the collective behaviour of our species, appreciate the logic, whether we agree or not, and find a way of functioning within the social contract". As a bleeding-heart liberal, the trouble I always have with libertarian arguments (at least as I've heard them advanced) is they are fundamentally unempathetic and callous. They also tend to massively overestimate the effectiveness of individual choice compared to collective effort and, critically, most people's reasoning ability. I'm not being snobby here, I just mean that there isn't time in a human's life to individually negotiate the details of their relationship, financial or otherwise, to everyone they deal with: hence trade unions, hence law, hence social conventions, hence - in short - collectivisation. Libertarianism to me is fine in smaller, simple communities than our current ones, but personally I'd rather have electricity, free internet infrastructure, safe dwellings and (when necessary) unemployment benefit than a basket of berries and nowt else.
BTW, inasmuch as I have a philosophy, it probably is of the utilitarian greatest-happiness variety...
How things would work without governments
[Raak] We would all have ponies.
er... and hopefully your browser will word wrap that.
Raak recommending C.S. Lewis? There's a thing. For what it's worth, I was under the impression that libertarianism was a political stance, not a moral philosophy.
[CdM] That's right. But what is this blog? Actually, right now I'm mired in indecision, wondering whether going to Singapore would be the right thing to do or not. I'm not certain I want to be an academic, but that's what it would basically channel me into. Plus, of course, being away from my girlfriend for a long time would be a bad thing. I hate making decisions!
[CdM] That's right. But what is this blog? Actually, right now I'm mired in indecision, wondering whether going to Singapore would be the right thing to do or not. I'm not certain I want to be an academic, but that's what it would basically channel me into. Plus, of course, being away from my girlfriend for a long time would be a bad thing. I hate making decisions!
[Projoy] Singer is advocating relativism about property. Property is whatever local custom and law says it is. If local custom and law says the government owns your whole salary, why, that's just how it is. They can own your firstborn, or you yourself. That's the social contract you somehow accepted when you got born, and any silly idea you have about owning things that the government says you can't is just an illusion. The government owns everything it provides, and it owns everything it needs to take from you to provide it. Lest you think I'm exaggerating, I have actually heard someone argue (before the Wall came down) that East Germany was perfectly justified in shooting people attempting to escape, because such people were stealing the upbringing and education that the state had given them, and which therefore gave the state a property interest in their person. Singer even comes straight out and says "A system of government is conceptually prior to property rights." Who's ignoring human nature now? I mean, most larger animals behave like they have some sort of idea of "my stuff", never mind human beings, and they don't have governments to enforce the idea, they do it themselves. In just about any political philosophy but Singer's, governments are instituted to secure pre-existing property rights.
A key concept in discussions of libertarianism is, "Utopia is not an option", so when Belle Waring brings in "libertarian utopia" I pretty much lose interest, even though she's recounting a discussion involving David Friedman. The wishful thinking can be found just as much on the other sides. Look here to see what you can do to Make Poverty History: email the PM, send postcards, sign a petition (of breathtaking fatuity), wear a white ribbon, and "call for change and make it happen"! Let's wish for government to give everyone a pony! At least Singer gives 20% of his income to charity.
[CdM again, re Brad deLong] Go back to those earlier writers and ask them to imagine a world without servants. Go back earlier and ask people to imagine a world without slaves, or (say, in mediaeval Europe) a world without Christianity. You would get the same incredulity as you do at present asking most people to imagine a world without government.
[Bm] I see it as a political stance grounded in the moral philosophy that everyone has a duty to take responsibility for themselves and their actions, and to make the very best of what they're given by fate, nobody else owing them anything but what they freely choose to give. That is not by any means the whole of morality -- it is largely disjoint from the Tao admirably expounded by C.S. Lewis in the book I mentioned -- but I regard it as an essential part of the whole.
A key concept in discussions of libertarianism is, "Utopia is not an option", so when Belle Waring brings in "libertarian utopia" I pretty much lose interest, even though she's recounting a discussion involving David Friedman. The wishful thinking can be found just as much on the other sides. Look here to see what you can do to Make Poverty History: email the PM, send postcards, sign a petition (of breathtaking fatuity), wear a white ribbon, and "call for change and make it happen"! Let's wish for government to give everyone a pony! At least Singer gives 20% of his income to charity.
[CdM again, re Brad deLong] Go back to those earlier writers and ask them to imagine a world without servants. Go back earlier and ask people to imagine a world without slaves, or (say, in mediaeval Europe) a world without Christianity. You would get the same incredulity as you do at present asking most people to imagine a world without government.
[Bm] I see it as a political stance grounded in the moral philosophy that everyone has a duty to take responsibility for themselves and their actions, and to make the very best of what they're given by fate, nobody else owing them anything but what they freely choose to give. That is not by any means the whole of morality -- it is largely disjoint from the Tao admirably expounded by C.S. Lewis in the book I mentioned -- but I regard it as an essential part of the whole.
[Raak] Interesting. When Singer says "a system of government is conceptually prior to property rights" (rather than, say, chronologically prior) surely he doesn't mean that before we had governments we had no property. What he means is that when two people, or indeed other animals come into conflict over property, there immediately emerges some means of deciding priority: strength, guile etc. Out of the two organisms you have a system of government (note that Singer does not say government itself). When 'strength of numbers' becomes the deciding factor in terms of who gets the resources you have something even more recognisable as a system of government. These arrangements are transitory, unstable, inefficient. Surely what we see in our own far more effient and abstract systems of government is the ossification of many iterations of this sort of process? (i.e. Government is inevitable, discuss). Even a world without a nominal government, run, say, by communities of interest or corporations there would be a de facto pecking order, wouldn't there? Assuming this world had such things as property rights, the big corps would be a system of government.
[Raak] How do you react to the following? "Your property is what anybody stronger than you lets you own and that you don't surrender to anybody weaker than you, or vice versa."
[Projoy] Ha! By yielding I overcome! "Property" doesn't exist as a real thing in itself. Neither do "rights". "Property" and "rights" are ways in which people conceptualise how people should relate to each other. So, your hypothetical statement is an accurate description of who actually gets to own stuff, but not a description of most people's various ideas about what constitutes property and who should have it.
[Projoy, your previous message] I don't see two dogs fighting over a bone as a government, nor two tribes fighting over territory. If the word "government" is extended to mean "whatever way people arrange of living together" then even the hypothetical world of David Friedman's book has a government. But that empties the word of usefulness. Governments, that we call governments, have just this in common: that they impose by force a monopoly on the use of force to settle disputes.
Weirder and weirder
I've just been investigating Time Capsules for a PR stunt proposal... and then looked at my horoscope which said: "Consider the long term today." (Cancer, Jonathan Cainer) Ha.
[pen] Do you take time capsules (3 times a day with meals) to give you more time to do things?
Taking my time (three times a day, with food)
[Boolbar] Yup.
Cancer
[pen] That must be me too then. I don't read horoscopes, so I have to take mine second-hand, obviously. Thanks.
I once owned a cook book by Jonathan Cainer. It consisted of recipes like, "Open can. Put beans on plate. Serve." and some strange gubbins about how vegetarianism was an affirmation of life. He's a man of many talents! If only he used some of them.
[Raak] You're dismissing Belle Waring's arguments because she uses "libertarian utopia" as a tongue-in-cheek description of the kind of society that Epstein, Barnett and Friedman are discussing. But leave that phrase aside if you like: I think her one paragraph synopses of their arguments is pretty close to the money.
As an economist, I am sympathetic to the view that we should encourage the value-creating possibilities of private contracting between individuals, and as a social liberal, I am sympathetic to the view that we should limit government intrusion into private decisions. Those are positions that loosely ally with libertarianism. But I am also aware that, in the real world, private transactions frequently have significant consequences beyond the transactors, and libertarian arguments start crumbling rapidly one you take this seriously. (Epstein recognizes this in his contribution, and so ends up advocating a form of state that is not really that different from what we already have; he would simply like to see less government regulation.) The key paragraph from Belle Waring's argument is surely this, though:
Now, everyone close your eyes and try to imagine a private, profit-making rights-enforcement organization which does not resemble the mafia, a street gang, those pesky fire-fighters/arsonists/looters who used to provide such "services" in old New York and Tokyo, medieval tax-farmers, or a Lendu militia. (In general, if thoughts of the Eastern Congo intrude, I suggest waving them away with the invisible hand and repeating "that's anarcho-capitalism" several times.) Nothing's happening but a buzzing noise, right?
I am completely with her here: it is at this point that I think libertarianism utterly loses touch with reality. Private contracting without some institution to enforce contracts is infeasible, and private provision of contract enforcement strikes me as much scarier than enforcement by a democratically elected government. (Perhaps that's what comes of visiting countries where ordinary restaurants are guarded by men with sub-machine guns.)
Oh, and you are completely misreading Brad DeLong. He is not saying that Smith, Hume, Hobbes, et al. couldn't imagine a world without government; he is saying the exact opposite. He is saying that they know it to be a crazy idea because they can imagine it all too well.
As an economist, I am sympathetic to the view that we should encourage the value-creating possibilities of private contracting between individuals, and as a social liberal, I am sympathetic to the view that we should limit government intrusion into private decisions. Those are positions that loosely ally with libertarianism. But I am also aware that, in the real world, private transactions frequently have significant consequences beyond the transactors, and libertarian arguments start crumbling rapidly one you take this seriously. (Epstein recognizes this in his contribution, and so ends up advocating a form of state that is not really that different from what we already have; he would simply like to see less government regulation.) The key paragraph from Belle Waring's argument is surely this, though:
Now, everyone close your eyes and try to imagine a private, profit-making rights-enforcement organization which does not resemble the mafia, a street gang, those pesky fire-fighters/arsonists/looters who used to provide such "services" in old New York and Tokyo, medieval tax-farmers, or a Lendu militia. (In general, if thoughts of the Eastern Congo intrude, I suggest waving them away with the invisible hand and repeating "that's anarcho-capitalism" several times.) Nothing's happening but a buzzing noise, right?
I am completely with her here: it is at this point that I think libertarianism utterly loses touch with reality. Private contracting without some institution to enforce contracts is infeasible, and private provision of contract enforcement strikes me as much scarier than enforcement by a democratically elected government. (Perhaps that's what comes of visiting countries where ordinary restaurants are guarded by men with sub-machine guns.)
Oh, and you are completely misreading Brad DeLong. He is not saying that Smith, Hume, Hobbes, et al. couldn't imagine a world without government; he is saying the exact opposite. He is saying that they know it to be a crazy idea because they can imagine it all too well.
I haven't thought about this too much, or read any of the references (hmmm - pursuing as ever the highest standards of academic rigour...). However my immediate reaction to the concept of "no government" is a feeling that such a thing would in fact be unstable. For without government, it is surely then impossible to have an army. Without an army, you leave yourself open to invasion from a power that does have an army, and you're back to having a government. If there were no governments, as there once weren't, a nucleation event would surely propagate. Or am I being too simplistic?
[CdM] On the last point, I don't think I am misreading: the hypothetical responses of Smith et al are those of people unable to imagine the alternatives. (As a digression, I would not be surprised -- except by my living so long -- to see in a century's time the relationship of "employment" being regarded as as degrading as "keeping a servant" is regarded by many people today.)
Having just read the Reason article that Belle Waring had such fun with, her summary of Friedman is way off. There is no wishful thinking in Friedman. Speculation, certainly. Waring is speculating as well, speculating about a world in which the governmental restraints on people that we see around us are absent, but ignoring all of the proposals for what might replace them. Let's wish for no-one to have a pony!
The fundamental problem of having a government to secure public goods is this: how do you restrict the government to doing only that? Looking around at the world, it seems clear to me that nobody has found a solution to that problem. The thing that governments are most effective at is securing and extending their own power.
[rab] The idea is that there are other institutions instead, ones that do not take the form of a small group of people (elected or otherwise) telling everyone else what to do. As you point out, the original state of institutionless nature was in fact followed by governments.
Having just read the Reason article that Belle Waring had such fun with, her summary of Friedman is way off. There is no wishful thinking in Friedman. Speculation, certainly. Waring is speculating as well, speculating about a world in which the governmental restraints on people that we see around us are absent, but ignoring all of the proposals for what might replace them. Let's wish for no-one to have a pony!
The fundamental problem of having a government to secure public goods is this: how do you restrict the government to doing only that? Looking around at the world, it seems clear to me that nobody has found a solution to that problem. The thing that governments are most effective at is securing and extending their own power.
[rab] The idea is that there are other institutions instead, ones that do not take the form of a small group of people (elected or otherwise) telling everyone else what to do. As you point out, the original state of institutionless nature was in fact followed by governments.
[Raak] How do you restrict anyone to securing public goods? Whether they are government in name or (part of) government by fact? Constitutions, bills of rights, checks and balances all seem like a good start to me.
[Raak] re your previous points about convention determining property... I think you are overstating it in a way that suggests Government is not continuous with us, the people. You could justifiably accuse me of cultural myopia here, I suppose, because I'm thinking mainly about democratic governments of the type I've directly experienced, but there is an extent to which governments may be closer to a genuine contract than the simple fiat of convention or the powerful: democracy, including lobbyism etc. is it. I'd be interesting to know whether your argument is based on a greatest-happiness idea and if so how libertarian mechanisms follow from that. As I mentioned before, my problem with systems based on high personal responsibility is that they do not recognise the moral value of protecting the weak. It strikes me that you have to bite the bullet and say (as you once jokingly put it) "a man who doesn't have enough friends to pull his plough had better starve".
Also, I note you haven't really responded to the argument about social capital.
s/interesting/interested
St George's Day Celebrations
Salisbury is festooned. There's a re-enactment of the mighty battle plus lots of celebrations in the market place tomorrow. I'd happily place a bet that every school age child in our district knows who St George is.
On this subject ...
I could do with some help because I have very little free time ... I have to compile 10 questions for our Sunday Quiz night [coincidentally the pub is the George & Dragon] on the theme of George & The Dragon so I need 5 'George' questions and 5 'Dragon' questions - not just historical ones. 2 easy ones that spring to mind are "what is the name of the actor who played George in George and Mildred" and "the full name please of the lizard that has the word dragon in its name?" That sort of level. Any further ideas would be much appreciated ..
On this subject ...
I could do with some help because I have very little free time ... I have to compile 10 questions for our Sunday Quiz night [coincidentally the pub is the George & Dragon] on the theme of George & The Dragon so I need 5 'George' questions and 5 'Dragon' questions - not just historical ones. 2 easy ones that spring to mind are "what is the name of the actor who played George in George and Mildred" and "the full name please of the lizard that has the word dragon in its name?" That sort of level. Any further ideas would be much appreciated ..
Erm.. name of the Rentaghost dragon.. island to have been awarded the George cross.. origin of the phrase By George!..
thanks rab :-)
You could ask for the translation of the motto of Hogwart's school: "Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus". How many King Georges have we had? (or how many Georges reigned in the eighteenth/twentieth century?). Who wrote "Aida" and what does his name translate into English as? What was George VI's real name? Who wrote "I Got Rhythm"? (or which of the following pieces/novels/whatever were written by a George?)... Who performed "Georgy Girl"?
The name of the Dragon in The Hobbit...
Gosg - thanks Projoy :-) :-)
Gosg?
D&D
(With apologies for cross-post)
My ten-year-old son is very keen to play Dungeons & Dragons (of the take left fork, pick up ring, drink potion type) - can anyone suggest a good site for him to visit that is (a) safe for 10-y-os, (b) interesting but accessible to a 10-y-o novice and (c) free or at least inexpensive ? It doesn't matter whether its MUDD playing other players or simply finding his way through a maze playing only the computer - in fact the latter might be better to start with ... any ideas ?
My ten-year-old son is very keen to play Dungeons & Dragons (of the take left fork, pick up ring, drink potion type) - can anyone suggest a good site for him to visit that is (a) safe for 10-y-os, (b) interesting but accessible to a 10-y-o novice and (c) free or at least inexpensive ? It doesn't matter whether its MUDD playing other players or simply finding his way through a maze playing only the computer - in fact the latter might be better to start with ... any ideas ?
I suppose something like Nethack or Slash'Em would be OK for him, if he didn't find the user interface too complicated.
On the more less-D&D-but-more-maze-with-potions-and-monsters side of things, and at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, why not try Ravenskull, which I programmed for Superior Interactive? (www.superiorinteractive.co.uk)
Nethack can come from http://www.nethack.org/ and Slash'Em can come from http://slashem.sourceforge.net/
Lynx
[Darren] You can do hyperlinks here in the usual way (until I get round to changing the syntax slightly as a spam blockade).
Anyway, did you write the original Ravenskull, or convert it to PC? I vaguely recall owning this for my trusty old Acorn Electron when I were a lad, but there were a number of these types of games it could have been another one... In any case, Kudos!
And there's the original,one and only, Colossal Cave.
[rab] I didn't write the original Ravenskull - I did the PC port. Superior Interactive is of course the descendent of the original publisher of Ravenskull on the BBC/Electron (Superior Software) and is still run by Mr Hanson. I've worked on a number of the PC (and other platform) ports of the old Superior games, and still am for that matter.
Thanks for the info. We'll go and have a look at the suggested sites.
Question for Chalky
There have been five kings of England called George. The latest was George V. Name the other four.
*blush*
[Chalky] Oops, have just realised that the Aida question has no George connection :). You could put it in as a trick one, tho :) An alternative would be to see if people can name any hit by Boy George's Culture Club apart from Karma Chameleon.
I'm pretty sure there are quite a few lizards with the word "dragon" in their name (I can think of two off-hand) so I'd avoid that question!
Personally I don't approve of the celebration of St George's Day: simply a slavish copy of the celebration of St Patrick's Day, which itself is an Americanism. At least St Patrick actually had something to do with Ireland: St George is terribly obscure at best and had nothing whatsoever to do with England in the slightest.
Personally I don't approve of the celebration of St George's Day: simply a slavish copy of the celebration of St Patrick's Day, which itself is an Americanism. At least St Patrick actually had something to do with Ireland: St George is terribly obscure at best and had nothing whatsoever to do with England in the slightest.
*has a queasy feeling of deja vu*
Quiz Qu's
(Chalky) What have George Eliot, George Sand and George of Enid Blyton's Famous Five got in common? (Ans. - All women)
Queues of Queues
As an easy starter, or a tie breaker, how about: From the letters of the name 'George' provide two three letter words which, in essence, have the same meaning. (Ans. Roe and Egg)
[rab] Ah yes, we've had that before, haven't we? Apologies...
[Dujon] I wouldn't call that an easy one, but it's damnably clever. You might also ask what the name "George" actually means (farmer or earthworker).
[Dujon] I wouldn't call that an easy one, but it's damnably clever. You might also ask what the name "George" actually means (farmer or earthworker).
Georgiana
There has to be a suitable question to which the answer would be "Jorja Fox", but I can't quite think of one.
Paddington...er, no that's wrong. I actually meant Wimbledon. No that's wrong too... I've got it! Kings Cross. Ah - that felt good
George
Damn - wish I'd seen Chalky's request earlier, I love setting quiz questions, but have obviously missed the Sunday deadline now. BTW [SM] Five kings called George ?
As a matter of interest :
As a matter of interest :
- George III was what relation of George II ?
- What is the name of the constellation representing the dragon
- George fighting the dragon appeared on the reverse of which British coin ? (two possible answers)
- Where did George play with Zippy & Bungle ?
- Name Hagrid's baby dragon
- If Sid James was George, who was The Dragon ?
- Which George had an affair with Chopin ?
- Which country owns Komodo of Komodo Dragon fame ?
Five kings
It's true. It is also true that there have been two kings of England called George. The latest of which was George II. See?
[Blob] You've got me stumped on the Sid James question.
George and the Dragon
Either Peggy Mount or Hattie Jaques. I'm leaning toward Peggy Mount.
Argent a cross gules
Bif is leaning in the correct direction !
Link
[Pj] A quick Google found this
D&D
blob - I sent you this link anyway, but why not buy your little chaperoo The D&D Player's Handbook. My advice would be encourage him to play it with some friends without a computer. The dice are very cool.
No wonder Bif is leaning. Who has the bigger gravitational pull, Hattie Jacques or Peggy Mount?
AD&D
[Blob / st d] In a recent nostalgic fit, I picked up from Ebay the standard quintet of AD&D manuals that I used to use at the end of the 1980s. Quite makes me want to have another go myself... Now, I just have to rescue my polyhedral dice from the fellow I leant them to about 10 years ago...
Speaking of dragons, does anyone remember the name of the TV programme that was on years ago, a sort of game show like an ancestor of "The Crystal Maze", which was set on a space ship or alien planet in which everything was an anagram of the word "dragon", and which featured a grid on which the player had to move from node to node while being chased by a shimmery thing?
Yes. It was The Adventure Game, and the shimmery thing was "The Vortex" if I recall.
Have just applied for a job online. Which feels wrong somehow. I like putting things into envelopes.
That's it! I knew it was a strangely unexotic title.
[Breadmaster] Yep, it was a wonderful show. I understood they repeated it on some cable channel recently, but since I don't have things like that I couldn't see the repeats. It's a pity cos I'd love to see it again. All I have is the theme music and about 300 screen grabs to keep me company.
Chunky chunks of strudel to all who helped with quizzing :-)
Adventure game feem toon
Oh yes, it's the John Williamsy guitar one, isn't it?
[Botherer] That's right. Ferdinando Carulli's Duo in G, Op. 34, performed by Julian Bream & John Williams.
(Cross-posting) At last! Internet at home! Mwahahahahaha!
he's spreading it about a bit
[UK] You got everywhere!
[penelope] I see you've acquired a new semicolon. It suits you!
Adveture Game
That was a GREAT show. I can still do a very convincing impersonation of The Rangdo Of Arg, aoart from teh looking like an aspidistra part.
colonoscopy
[Darren] You think so? You don't think I should get it surgically removed?
post-semi-colonectomy
That's better. People were avoiding me.
Must go for a slash.
Please excuse my accent. I've lived here for too long I suspect. Whilst the problem's acute it isn't grave at this point in time.
*swipes fly off Dujon's 'o'*
I think someone's taken a shot at my name as well....
Gosh!
It's breaking out all over...
Looks like it's surgery for me, otherwise I'll be in a diacritical condition.
Um-laut-ish behaviour. (Projoy) Your critical condition could have been even more dire if you'd had a wotsit over the "r", like Dvorak. I can't seem to find it.
[penelópe] Ah, so you have. I expect it back you know - it's not a book.
Dvorak keyboards...
The r with a thingy over it doesn't appear to be in the list of HTML entities I can find. Nor indeed the "c" with a... I think it might be called a hacek, but not sure, that is used in Czech words.
č
Háček. Bless you!
ř
ř - That's better.
*installs fly strips on every available surface as everyone but her seems to have flies buzzing around their heads* ;o)
is all I have to say on the matter !
Fls bzzng rnd
Smply mss th vwls nd thn th prblm stps.
o ie o e...
e! I'e o a y ooa!
I evacuate my vowels regularly, I guess that's why I never have that problem
Whereas I'm cons(on)(t)ant in my approach to life. Pick an' mix, kids.
A friend of mine used to pass sentences, penelope. He retired when he felt that in some cases they were becoming too long. (He was a magistrate).
None
Just testing
Did we pass?
I spotted it, but when I came back to recheck, what passes for normality had returned. I just assumed Rab had failed to pay the bills.
(Bthrr) All right for you with all your cnsnnts. :-)
Vote MC5
...in the interests of balance, where are those of us not involved in this vote represented?
Like the look though
...and, totally unrelatedly, I've just realised (thanks to a random poster) that i misspelled the "Maximum" in "Maxuimum High Speed Reverse Obliterate Ruttsborough's Ostrich" [sic]. Drat.
Subtexts
My reading is that Labour is happening and now, LibDem just grabs onto discarded Labour policies for a brief while, while the Tories are the past, only resuscitated now and then out of curiosity.
It is a bit loud isn't it? Don't worry, it'll all be over soon.
This message was brought to you by the "Anti Front-Page Graffiti Coalition (Incorporating the Stop the Dodgy Scansion Alliance)"
[Tuj] I've corrected it for you.
Apparently, I have the same IQ as Goering.
Just imagine if that were repeated all over the country.
[Projoy] IQ is quantitive, not qualitative. Or is it? And stand to attention when I'm talking to you. ;o)
Music notes
At one of the MSN Celebdaq groups I potter around, they have a daily picture quiz and a weekly on line quiz in Chat. As a challenge last night I did a music competition of 10 intros. It went down well so there will be another next week. The only major rules are, one answer per post and no consecutive posts. If you wish to have a go, it is temporarily at MSN Group MC Test Track. If you are doing this in the office - check volume first!
I name that tune in one
Number 6 is A Hard Day's Night by The Beatles.
Ah. That's better.
Late Arrivals. Why don't we have a game of Late Arrivals? Hasn't been done for... ooof.... months! Are there any games getting ready to go off around here?
The Election game could be shortlived. Although the majority's a little shaky on that one.
ITV1 is way ahead than BBC1 on declared results ... I might be pursuaded to stick with it
Yeah - are they geninue results or ITV making it up?
And BBC1 has Boris!
And Peter Snow!
Statistic of the night (so far) the Scottish Socialist Party got 666 votes in Gordon Brown's constituency!
Statistic of the night (so far) the Scottish Socialist Party got 666 votes in Gordon Brown's constituency!
[Chalky] ITV's 'results' are being announced prior to returning officers' confirmations.
Late Arrivals
(pen) Good idea. All those in favour say "aye", say I.
AYE!
psst - free game slot
Clairvoyance
I didn't like the ITV method of 'we have someone on the floor of the count with a mobile phone who's looking over the returning officer's shoulder'. Over the course of the night they got 2 or 3 wrong.
[INJ] I have to say it's not really any different from the way the parties themselves get prior results. I'm never entirely sure why knowing the results a few minutes earlier than anyone else gives you an advantage. It's not as if you can do anything about it.
[Projoy] Yes to No6.
[Darren] The agents anf their supporters are trying to second guess the result from the moment the first box is opened. Part one of the process is that we have to count the papers first into bundles of 25 face up. It is during this that they have markers on the other side of the tables with preprinted list and they watch one of the counters putting a mark against each candidate. As the boxes are in Wards they gauge quickly how it is going. At the count last night there were 13 tables of 5 counters.
During part the guessing is easier. We now take those bundles and this time sort them into four piles (Con/Lab/Lib/other) and then into candidate bundles of 25. It does not take much effort for them to estimate at this stage whether or not it is going to be close.
In Swindon mobile phones were banned from the hall where the count was being held.
[Darren] The agents anf their supporters are trying to second guess the result from the moment the first box is opened. Part one of the process is that we have to count the papers first into bundles of 25 face up. It is during this that they have markers on the other side of the tables with preprinted list and they watch one of the counters putting a mark against each candidate. As the boxes are in Wards they gauge quickly how it is going. At the count last night there were 13 tables of 5 counters.
During part the guessing is easier. We now take those bundles and this time sort them into four piles (Con/Lab/Lib/other) and then into candidate bundles of 25. It does not take much effort for them to estimate at this stage whether or not it is going to be close.
In Swindon mobile phones were banned from the hall where the count was being held.
[Inkspot] But my point was this: why bother trying to find out before it's announced? What's the point?
It gives them something to do, and try to generate a sense of excitement and tension to a very tedious, mind numbing process.
Early call
[Darren] It gives the losers chance to wipe the tears from their eyes and compose themselves.
It would be a lot more fun if they (and their agents) were locked in a sealed room and only led out to hear the result - so we could see their real live reaction.
It would be a lot more fun if they (and their agents) were locked in a sealed room and only led out to hear the result - so we could see their real live reaction.
[Blob] That would be like the Oxford Union elections, which I once made a film about and which, I can assure you, are just as keenly fought and taken just as seriously as "real" election. Ballots are counted in a completely sealed room, rather like Papal elections, with ridiculous hype about the secrecy of it all.
Free game slot again
101 Uses For a B&D Workmate with a Rope Attached?
No, seriously... what now?
No, seriously... what now?
New Game
Rutherford Scattering?
Call me Thrax.
I'm glad the student elections at MY university weren't so beligerent, Breadmaster. They were little more than an excuse for a piss-up. I ran unopposed anyway, since no one else wanted the position of Students with disabilities Secretary. Maybe THAT's why they wouldn't read out my result until after I'd sung a Karaoke of "I'm Too Sexy" by Right Said Fred, and lifted several pair drops out of a bowl full of self-raising flour using my teeth. Still, you make your own entertainment in the Midlands, I suppose.
OK
G'day, Thrax. Nice to see you posting. Hope all's well, my friend.
Call me Thrax.
Aye, 'tis well enough. Just hope they've lifted that mobile phone ban on us Swindonians.
And life treating you well down under, sir? By which I mean "in Australia", not "has the pox cleared up?" of course.
And life treating you well down under, sir? By which I mean "in Australia", not "has the pox cleared up?" of course.
As we say in the medical industry, he's doing as well as can be expected. You know what these geriatrics can be like, Mr Thrax. Once we have detoxed him he'll be able to lead a more or less normal life ... well, his normal.
Call me Thrax.
That's a relief, Matron.
I hope no one tries to detox me however. Fags and booze are about my only form of sustenance.
I hope no one tries to detox me however. Fags and booze are about my only form of sustenance.
(Thrax) And mine. Welcome back, young man. Have you defeated those FUCKING LOBSTERS?
... back again
You have a cat nap and the staff take over. Really! When I was admitted 'they' said certain procedures might be intrusive, but this is taking things a little too far. Should you ever be bludgeoned into detox, Thrax, don't believe a word of what 'they' say. For example: Trusted medical staff suggest that and MRI, or similar, could be benefical to their diagnostic appreciation. Fine. My natural suspicions were aroused when 'they' strapped me into a tube, closed a little glass door on the front and activated the control mechanism. Now, I'm fully aware that drying out the patient is one of the aims of this facility, but to con a patient into entering an industrial spin dryer under the pretext of taking care of him is indefensible.
I'm off outside for a dram and a drag. See you later.
I'm off outside for a dram and a drag. See you later.
Intro Number One
Is, of course, Boogie Wonderland by Earth, Wind and Fire.
Intro Number 5
- is "Celia" by Simon and Garfunkel, or did everybody already know that?
numbers up
[Botherer]Earth, Wind and Fire is right
[Kim]Simon and Garfunkel also right
Seeing as it has been up a couple of days since the original post, no consecutive posts rules is waived (1, 5 and 6 have been guessed.)Can you finish it off?
[Kim]Simon and Garfunkel also right
Seeing as it has been up a couple of days since the original post, no consecutive posts rules is waived (1, 5 and 6 have been guessed.)Can you finish it off?
intros
3. The Temptations - Just My Imagination (Running Away with Me)
"one answer...
8. Cornershop - Brim Full of Asha
... per post"
9. Prodigy - Firestarter
10. Weather With You - Crowded House
[Juxtpose & Darren]all right ;)
which leaves 2. Little Richard - Good Golly Miss Molly, 4. Nancy and Frank Sinatra - Somethin Stupid, 7. Keane - Everybody's Changing
which leaves 2. Little Richard - Good Golly Miss Molly, 4. Nancy and Frank Sinatra - Somethin Stupid, 7. Keane - Everybody's Changing
...and now back to normal chat.
Thank goodness. I hate all that new-fangled pope music, I think it's called.
too late
[Inkspot] I actually got number 2 but had to run off for a few hours so didn't post. It is a standard (but thumpy) 12 bar blues, however, so I wasn't completely sure. The style pins it down to late 50s though. And of course I recognized number 10 within, oh, a note or two (it was all over the radios in Aus in the early 90s).
Crowded House
[flerdle] They were New Zealanders, though, weren't they? I thought Australians were vehemently 100% absolutely totally opposed to all things which emanate from New Zealand, and then some.
On checking Wikipedia, it seems only 1/3 of Crowded House was from New Zealand. This probably explains why Australians gave them a chance.
it's stereotype time!!!
[Darren] No, not at all. A New Zealander would be far more insulted to be called an Australian than an Australian would a New Zealander - they'd probably just laugh at you; don't be stuuuuupid!
Australians tend to coopt a lot of (originally) NZ stuff, if it/they get famous eg Phar Lap, Fred Hollows, Crowded House, Russell Crowe... In sports, they are 'our' worst enemies, but otherwise are generally just given a hard time because we actually don't mind them - sibling rivalry and all that. New Zealand is even more at the @rse-end of the world than Australia and it's rather small, so they tend to feel like they're in Australia's shadow most of the time and perhaps they have 'something to prove', or at least they need to differentiate themselves from big, bossy, boorish Australia(ns). Australians tend to think New Zealand is cold, wet and just that little bit dull...
When the states of Australia joined to become 'Australia' there were noises made to get New Zealand included too (a reasonable idea) but the New Zealanders would have none of that. In the past the economy was better in Australia so a lot of New Zealanders moved. Migration has recently been tending the other way. About 350,000 New Zealand citizens (out of 4 million or so) live in Australia and around 60,000 Australians (out of 20 million) live in New Zealand. Political and economic ties are very close.
Their accent is a bit weird, though, and they are said to have a thing for sheep.
NZspeak
For example, pigs. These are wooden or plastic spring clips used for hanging out the washing.
[flerdle] I got my impressions of the relationship between Australians and New Zealanders by dating a girl from New Zealand for some time. She was a pathologist and said "cadaver" in a very strange way.
NZ Speak
[Rosie] And bits. Wagers on an event's outcome. There's a game here somewhere.
more daq is back
A little bit of a long time ago some rash young people spurred on by evil edna popped along to a Beeb site Celebdaq and set up some starry eyed accounts and formed the Celebrity Mornington Crescent League. But since its hay day last year many players taken that long stretched limo to secluded island of paradise. We are now down to five.
For those like playing here are a couple of addresses to help
MSN Group Ultimates for information on dividends. It is still guess work but every little helps. This week I chose Gavin Henson for best dividend yeild.
Fancy some competition to spice up your play? The Discworld Leagues are back. One of my accounts (Cleddau) is in the Assasssins Guild.
celebdantiquing
[Inkspot] I got busy. And now my account is lapsed. Sorry. *cackle*
I'm probably being dumb here
But I've just signed up for Celebdaq and can't work out how to join the mini league. Help?
(Darren) I'm a little puzzled. Was it something like "G'day-ver"? Did she have six-appeal? Well, obviously, I suppose. :-)
[Botherer]Good to see you join up, if you leave your ID number here it will be added as soon after.
[Rosie] It was "kerdaaaaver," and she always insisted that everyone in NZ spoke like that.
Celebdaq ID
3859547
Thanks Inkspot!
Thanks Inkspot!
Hiding behind the sofa from evil edna
Botherer you are in, welcome. You should appear there very soon. The other players you may not recognise from their alias are Graham III as ffish and gil as sigmundfreud. Dujon and blamelewis you know from around the boards.
For tips and general chit chat visit MSN Group CelebdaqBasements and Ultimates for the stats. There are plenty of experienced players out there willing to help with any query. Enjoy the game.
For tips and general chit chat visit MSN Group CelebdaqBasements and Ultimates for the stats. There are plenty of experienced players out there willing to help with any query. Enjoy the game.
Call me Thrax
Ah yes, I remember Celebdaq. Had a stab at it, but I was completely utterly hopeless. :( I just don't follow the celebrity-driven media closely enough I fear. I think I'm not in touch with the zeitgeist of modern times, which seems to have an obsessive fascination with the lives of the "great and good". It just passes me by and makes no impression.
Although, Rosie, I - very much like yerself - AM aware that many celebs are known to have succumbed to near-fatal cases of Lobsteriscimusbummakissimus. Thankfully mine has cleared up, after successful treatment involving industrial pliers and dyson vacuum, leaving me feeling refreshed and absolutely fantastic. I trust you are in similarly rude health, my friend?
Although, Rosie, I - very much like yerself - AM aware that many celebs are known to have succumbed to near-fatal cases of Lobsteriscimusbummakissimus. Thankfully mine has cleared up, after successful treatment involving industrial pliers and dyson vacuum, leaving me feeling refreshed and absolutely fantastic. I trust you are in similarly rude health, my friend?
(Thrax) Very rude, as all are aware. The only lobsterish incident in my life occurred in about 1952 when I was unable to read the name of a steam loco across a couple of platforms. The place of course was Charing Crustacean (geddit). Yes, it really was. So four-eyes from an early age, not a great burden.
Sofas
Did you buy your sofa from Sofa King, Inkspot? You know, the firm which advertises as "Sofa King - Good".
I also see, Inkspot, that Dr Q+ is re-entering the fray. With the inclusion of Botherer, my reincarnation and the foibles of the market ... let the battle commence. Not that it ever went away and, anyway, ffish has been on the heavy side of the scales for yonks. I enjoy the play in the Conference but the higher leagues are, at this point in time, a bit beyond me.
Welcome, Botherer, test your skills against idiots like me. It's silly, it's stupid and, to be honest, a waste of cyberspace.
I also see, Inkspot, that Dr Q+ is re-entering the fray. With the inclusion of Botherer, my reincarnation and the foibles of the market ... let the battle commence. Not that it ever went away and, anyway, ffish has been on the heavy side of the scales for yonks. I enjoy the play in the Conference but the higher leagues are, at this point in time, a bit beyond me.
Welcome, Botherer, test your skills against idiots like me. It's silly, it's stupid and, to be honest, a waste of cyberspace.
Call me Thrax
"Charing Crustacean"! *groan* Ouch! A pun like that really aches at this time of morning, Rosie. Ha ha! It's the way ye tell 'em! Which reminds me... anyone else here enjoyed those late night shows on Radio 4 in which Pauline McLynne has been exploring the history of Irish comedy? Some marvellous quotes in it. One of my faves was from Dave Allen, in which he advised that you must never expect a sensible reply if asking for directions in Ireland, as you're likely to be told: "You want to get to there d'ye? Well, ye certainly don't want to start from here! Start from way over there - it's nearer." Ha ha ha. Just brilliant!
*reads Dujon's "Sofa King - Good" quip* That reminds me of a wee gag of my own from my childhood days. I forget who was the recipient, I recall only the gag, but someone invited it by saying to me, "I'm from Suffolk myself," to which, naturally, I replied, "yes, Suffolk yourself." See? I'm pure evil.
I have however just bought a new sofa - well, a sofabed, which I intend to plonk here in my study for when visitors, er, visit. £25 it cost me. The lady upstairs is clearing out a load of unwanted furniture and stuff for next-to-nothing since she won £400,000 on the Lottery and intends to move out at the end of May. Alas however, the lift is broken at the moment and so I can't get the thing down from her floor to mine until an essential component arrives from Deutschland.
I'm sure this is all frightfully dull for you all. Think I'll wind up here for now.
:) Huzzaah!
*reads Dujon's "Sofa King - Good" quip* That reminds me of a wee gag of my own from my childhood days. I forget who was the recipient, I recall only the gag, but someone invited it by saying to me, "I'm from Suffolk myself," to which, naturally, I replied, "yes, Suffolk yourself." See? I'm pure evil.
I have however just bought a new sofa - well, a sofabed, which I intend to plonk here in my study for when visitors, er, visit. £25 it cost me. The lady upstairs is clearing out a load of unwanted furniture and stuff for next-to-nothing since she won £400,000 on the Lottery and intends to move out at the end of May. Alas however, the lift is broken at the moment and so I can't get the thing down from her floor to mine until an essential component arrives from Deutschland.
I'm sure this is all frightfully dull for you all. Think I'll wind up here for now.
:) Huzzaah!
[Inkspot] You are a gentleman and a scholar.
A gentleman and a scholar
Oh, that's 0.67 of a Pink Panther.
That's a Pink Pant, more or less.
[penelope]That's a little brief - and a mental picture that I shall immediately put to on side.
Inkspot] Actually, there was a player between it and the goal, so it was onside anyway.
Offside rule
(Irouléguy) There have to be two players, or at least one and a half.
*mimes*
Hmmmm
[CdM] You're trying to get out of a box?
I thought the penalty box was for hockey... or was that prison?
motorway madness
Legoland is great when you get there the only problem is other drivers on the M4. Yesterday there were three accidents on different sections between Hugerford and Slough adding an hour onto the travelling. I am no saint when it comes to motorway driving, recklesly driving over the limit at an average of just under 75mph, but at I abide by lane discipline, overtake; then back to the inside lane. There were just so mannt middle lane dawdlers. They really are the bane of my driving life. Squatting in the middle lane they are a hazard they can be like their own personal mobile roadblock as other drivers attach themselves closely to the bumper. A further irritation of the most blinkered of these drivers is the way they come to a slow moving vehicle in the middle lane then hypnotized staying behind rather than overtake. When will they get it into their skulls that the second and third lanes are for overtaking it is not, inside lane = slow lane and outside lane = fast lane.
[Inkspot] Abso-bloody-lutely. I undertake middle-land dawdlers if I can do it without speeding. I know it's evil, but they have been told time and time again. Pffft.
Hogging the middle lane is unacceptable, but I have to say I don't think I've ever seen anyone hogging the middle land whilst driving at under 70mph. Given that no-one is allowed to go over 70mph, they are therefore not blocking anybody.
*taps the deja-vuometer - needle rises sharply*
[Breadmaster] Oh I have. How come there is space for me to go at 70mph in Lane 1 if he/she or it is going at 65mph in Lane 2? Because everyone else in Lane One has pulled ahead (at a legal speed) of the sluggish Lane Two-er, that's why. Exactly how much motorway driving do you do?
Well, not so much these days, admittedly. Perhaps there are more slow middle lane hoggers than there used to be!
*resists the temptation to say what speed I routinely cruise at*
In the old Polo I use for work I return via M4 J15/J15 at a steady pace just under 60, the car seems comfortable with this - there being a noise barrier somewhere round 70.
Thankfully I missed this latest offering from ITV Twelve gorgeous celebrity singletons are thrown together on a fantasy island in ITV1’s star studded search for love, Celebrity Love Island. The end of the Dyke era seems to have given the beeb a small kick up the backside. Unfortunately Ofcom seem to want more of this low quality 'entertainment' in allowing ITV to dump anything that is done elsewhere eg news, childrens progs.
Thankfully I missed this latest offering from ITV Twelve gorgeous celebrity singletons are thrown together on a fantasy island in ITV1’s star studded search for love, Celebrity Love Island. The end of the Dyke era seems to have given the beeb a small kick up the backside. Unfortunately Ofcom seem to want more of this low quality 'entertainment' in allowing ITV to dump anything that is done elsewhere eg news, childrens progs.
Middle lane hogs
I find that middle lane hogs are almost invariably travelling at no more than 60, actually. Usually as they pass under gantries which rather expensively dictate 'DON'T HOG THE MIDDLE LANE'. Given my penchant for grotesquely illegal (but not dangerous, dammit; how is 100-120 on a dry, empty road, in a well-maintained car designed for over 145, with a healthy, sober, attentive driver, more dangerous than 70?) speeds, I also regularly experience the upper class of lane hog - those that have ascended to the 'fast' lane; to be fair, they're generally only there because of people in the middle lane and will often move when a quarter of a mile gap (ie the space required to pull over and let me pass without slowing for the next hog) avails itself. (I am aware that my driving habits are both vastly illegal and morally reprehensible to some people. I continue to hold my constantly clean license and undamaged person+car as evidence that I am not the murderer our illustrious government would have everyone believe)
The most hate-inducing section of road for me is the newly re-opened Thelwall Viaduct, though, which often sees three of the four lanes occupied by lorries and hoggers, for some reason. It even expands to five lanes for filtering off, so it's not (well, shouldn't be) that.
I'm going on holiday tomorrow evening, for two weeks. Therefore, my DSL will fall over some time on Thursday.
Apologies for the cross posting.
This is really just a last minute round-up for anyone who may want to become involved in an MC event organised for this weekend (the 21st of May).
Last year, a group of regular MC players got together to organise a live game or two, loosely presented in the format of ISIHAC. 17 folks attended ‘ISIHAC2 – This time it’s Unprofessional’. It was so much fun that an instant decision for the event to be repeated.
This years event has been entitled ‘That Went Off Very Well’ and is to be held at Brownsover Hall in Rugby. Bedrooms cost £35 and I am reliably informed that there are still some available, although we are expecting a bigger crowd this year.
On Saturday evening (from about 7.30pm) we will be playing ISIHAC games such as New Definitions, Sound Charades and Mornington C with suitable breaks for beer and refreshments. Piano is being provided by Colin Sell soundalike, JLE. Silliness will be followed by a cabaret including songs specifically written for the occasion and free-for-all gaming.
It may be too late for you to attend, but all the same I thought I would post this in the hope that if there were any players who suddenly found themselves free this weekend would have the opportunity to have an extravagant sufficiency of fun in pleasurable surroundings amongst exuberant and entertaining company.
If you are interested in attending, email me here for all details. There are some half empty cars coming up from London, and I can give lifts from Rugby Train Station.
If you are unable to attend because you just live too far away or wouldn’t miss Eurovision for the world, you can still contribute. Email me at the address above and I’ll send you a programme of the games we are playing. If you have any suggestions for new definitions, chat-up-lines likely to be heard at Westminster or songs suitable for undertakers and morticians, I’ll be very happy to read out your contribution “here is one sent in by…” style.
Once again, apologies for interrupting programming. Normal Service will now be resumed.
This is really just a last minute round-up for anyone who may want to become involved in an MC event organised for this weekend (the 21st of May).
Last year, a group of regular MC players got together to organise a live game or two, loosely presented in the format of ISIHAC. 17 folks attended ‘ISIHAC2 – This time it’s Unprofessional’. It was so much fun that an instant decision for the event to be repeated.
This years event has been entitled ‘That Went Off Very Well’ and is to be held at Brownsover Hall in Rugby. Bedrooms cost £35 and I am reliably informed that there are still some available, although we are expecting a bigger crowd this year.
On Saturday evening (from about 7.30pm) we will be playing ISIHAC games such as New Definitions, Sound Charades and Mornington C with suitable breaks for beer and refreshments. Piano is being provided by Colin Sell soundalike, JLE. Silliness will be followed by a cabaret including songs specifically written for the occasion and free-for-all gaming.
It may be too late for you to attend, but all the same I thought I would post this in the hope that if there were any players who suddenly found themselves free this weekend would have the opportunity to have an extravagant sufficiency of fun in pleasurable surroundings amongst exuberant and entertaining company.
If you are interested in attending, email me here for all details. There are some half empty cars coming up from London, and I can give lifts from Rugby Train Station.
If you are unable to attend because you just live too far away or wouldn’t miss Eurovision for the world, you can still contribute. Email me at the address above and I’ll send you a programme of the games we are playing. If you have any suggestions for new definitions, chat-up-lines likely to be heard at Westminster or songs suitable for undertakers and morticians, I’ll be very happy to read out your contribution “here is one sent in by…” style.
Once again, apologies for interrupting programming. Normal Service will now be resumed.
Middle Lane Hogs
My favourite tactic with these fools is to drive up reasonably close to them in the inside lane, indicate out and overtake. Once past them I indicate back in to the inside lane and then slow down until they pass me. Repeat until they get the hint or I get bored.
MLH's
(Botherer) Why do they need to get the hint? You've already overtaken him and have no need to concern yourself with him any more. Just drive on, maybe with a brief profanity. All you're doing is raising your blood pressure, not his. He'll just think you're a bit mad, that is if he sees you at all.
Songs for undertakers
Botherer could have a go at Meatloaf's Objects in the rearview mirror may appear closer than they are.
- controversial -
Hurrah a road debate ! I like the sound of NIK's driving. I would also say that Inkspot is very correct to travel that section of teh M4 slowly as they have just pout speed cameras calibrated at about 74mph on it (J14-16) - or at least said that on the news, which is a similar effect.....
Anyone who is of teh opinion that anyone driving over 70 is a lunatic or whatever is really the kind of person that I shouldnt really even start talking to about this because, frankly and honestly, I couldn't give a toss about their opinions on this matter and would fervently hope never to have to be a passengger in their car or have them in mine. I drive at about 90 most of teh time, occasionally creeping up to about 110 for brief periods or dropping to 70 if the road is clear. I will generally sit in outside or middle lanes and will always pull over to middle lane if someone is approaching me fast and I can easily - otherwise I will wait until three is a gap I can do this safely then pull out immediately behind them (well, maybe not IMMEDIATELY) If they approach really close and hassle me, especially with an indicator on, or in any way before I have had a chance to let them get past politely then I do not alwyas pull out - sometimes I will sit there just to piss them off, sometimes I will accelerate, somketimes I will touch my brakelights (though not brake) - I will let them past but not necessarily straight away. F*ck em. Similarly when I approach someone from behind I give thme plenty of chance to pull out of my way. If they don't then I will get a bit closer. Sometimes I undertake - I have no problem with doing this at all if there is space. If I am in middle lane I do not always pull aside. If I am in middle lane that normally means that there is no-one in fast lane and so road is quite clear - however I am normally going faster than someone in the 'slow' lane. If someone comes up hard behind me wanting to get past, then my thinking is that they can bloody well overtake me by using the space available on my right. I dont see why anyone has a problem with people not going as fast as them in teh middle lane when there is another lane available. Fast lane slow drivers I accept are a ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS. Middle lane - so what ? I like botherers circling technique though. :o)
In Italy the other week I LOVE the way they drive on the Mways. Screaming up fast to within inches and then overtaking at last second. Everyone seems happy with it. I just love the sheer recklessness of it.
Anyone who is of teh opinion that anyone driving over 70 is a lunatic or whatever is really the kind of person that I shouldnt really even start talking to about this because, frankly and honestly, I couldn't give a toss about their opinions on this matter and would fervently hope never to have to be a passengger in their car or have them in mine. I drive at about 90 most of teh time, occasionally creeping up to about 110 for brief periods or dropping to 70 if the road is clear. I will generally sit in outside or middle lanes and will always pull over to middle lane if someone is approaching me fast and I can easily - otherwise I will wait until three is a gap I can do this safely then pull out immediately behind them (well, maybe not IMMEDIATELY) If they approach really close and hassle me, especially with an indicator on, or in any way before I have had a chance to let them get past politely then I do not alwyas pull out - sometimes I will sit there just to piss them off, sometimes I will accelerate, somketimes I will touch my brakelights (though not brake) - I will let them past but not necessarily straight away. F*ck em. Similarly when I approach someone from behind I give thme plenty of chance to pull out of my way. If they don't then I will get a bit closer. Sometimes I undertake - I have no problem with doing this at all if there is space. If I am in middle lane I do not always pull aside. If I am in middle lane that normally means that there is no-one in fast lane and so road is quite clear - however I am normally going faster than someone in the 'slow' lane. If someone comes up hard behind me wanting to get past, then my thinking is that they can bloody well overtake me by using the space available on my right. I dont see why anyone has a problem with people not going as fast as them in teh middle lane when there is another lane available. Fast lane slow drivers I accept are a ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS. Middle lane - so what ? I like botherers circling technique though. :o)
In Italy the other week I LOVE the way they drive on the Mways. Screaming up fast to within inches and then overtaking at last second. Everyone seems happy with it. I just love the sheer recklessness of it.
typos
schmypos - sorry
Roads here are nice. And smooth. And straight, mostly. And fast. Everyone goes fast. Every second time we go to Muscat (approx 240km each way - about once every two weeks) there's at least one rather nasty looking accident. Sometimes it's a bit hard to see what type of car it (formerly) was.
what type of car.....?
flerdle] is that because you are going by so fast ?
[St D] So doesn't the fact that something's illegal bother you at all?
I didn't mean that to sound confrontational, by the way - but I am genuinely puzzled because I'd have thought that most people would at least have some scruples about breaking the law. But in this subject it seems not!
Motoring
As if I didn't hear all this boy-racer bollocks 40 yrs ago. Driving manners and attitudes have improved considerably over the decades but there are clearly some that this welcome cultural change has yet to reach.
Little Sir
[flerdle] My daughter drives an Echo, though the two door hatch rather than the booted four door. I love the optically jiggered read-outs. Whilst I have not driven the little beast, it must make refocussing of the eyes much easier/faster/safer than the conventional system.
Hmm, *thinks*, I hope I haven't said this before somewhere.
Hmm, *thinks*, I hope I haven't said this before somewhere.
Manners
It's really nice to read opinions like "Driving manners and attitudes have improved considerably over the decades" since one the whole people tend only to express their perception of degradation. Thanks Rosie.
[Bm] And there was me thinking the law tends to reacts to the (changing) concensus as what constitutes unscrupulous behaviour, and not the other way round.
[rab] Yes, laws change to reflect what people think is acceptable, but I would still have thought it unusual for people simply to ignore laws that they don't like with, apparently, it not even occurring to them that the fact that something is illegal is in itself a reason not to do it. It seems that motoring laws are the big exception. But why is this? Or alternatively, am I mistaken in thinking that most people are basically law-abiding in the first place? In which case, what's the point of having laws at all?
Ooof. Big questions! And having typed out a long passage, and deleted it again, I realise I need to think about them some more. Hopefully someone else will get there first.
[Bm] Well, no, I don't think the fact of something being illegal has the slightest moral force at all, in any circumstances. Speed limits aren't the only example of laws being ignored. Ask any tradesman if he'll give a discount for cash -- the discount is coming straight out of the VATman's take, and everyone involved knows that.
good viewing
[Dujon] Yes. I found it surprisingly easy to get used to. For those who don't know, the speedo and other instruments aren't directly in front of the driver, they're on top of the middle of the dashboard. Apparently it makes it easier and cheaper to manufacture both left and right hand drive setups. It's also that bit further away, which means less and quicker focussing, and the fact that it is high up and sideways means that you're not looking down so much, preserving more peripheral vision and road awareness. It was actually more difficult and disturbing to get used to the "old way" than this new setup, when I had to switch back last year for a while. Oh, and our car only has cooling, not heating as in the picture :-)
[laws] Of course people ignore laws they don't like - laws mean nothing much if it stops you from doing what you want, or if it's a bit too inconvenient, especially if you're not likely to get caught. Littering, speeding, copyright, tax... Perhaps some people see the speed laws as stupid or irrelevent in certain conditions, and they don't see there being much in the way of consequences if they break them (since they are of course excellent drivers, and they'll never crash or be taken out by other people), so it's ok to go as fast as they feel is necessary, whatever the laws say.
Note, I am NOT saying that all laws are sensible, and this is a GUESS at a reason for some people's behaviour, and it is probably a question that needs careful analysis of the data ;-) -- but I don't have time or energy to look at it now.
[Raak] Well put.
mini-rant.
and of course, those "it"s should be "they"s etc etc in the second paragraph. Yes, I'm a bad girl for constantly getting things like this in my posts in these places wrong, and I'd edit it if I could, but if you want perfect copy, just go somewhere else. It's not through ignorance, just so y'know, just difficulty expressing myself clearly all at once. In person, I can't argue my way out of a wet paper bag, so in print I'm doing remarkably well, considering, even if I take too long :-)
law
BM] It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Not a jot. As to law...well. I paid a Congestion Charge recently and then got a penalty notice. I had put my number plate in wrong by one digit. All teh papers said "Under the law you have no leg to stand on whatsoever in this case" It was made quite clear under what circumstances it was possible to contest the fine under the law. I thought I had a pretty good case really as it was blindingly obvious to anyone looking that I had attempted to pay for my vehicle and made and honest mistake. Under the LAW it was just tough. So I shut up and paid the extra £50 on top of the £5 I had paid that morning. SO......yesterday, in the Guardian, there is a short article about a ruling by Justice Burnton, finding in favour of Lady Walmsley who had undergone EXACTLY the same situation as me and had decided to appeal, even though it was specifically laid out in LAW that she had no redress. "The Law," found his honour, "was an ass." It often is.
As to whether you should worry too much about legality or illegality of speeding or indeed any other thing that is illegal - its an incredibly liberating moment when you realise that you are an adult and capable of making judgements and decisions yourself.
I realise that this case is not in UK but in Dubai there is a british woman in prison for posessing a banned substance on arrival because it was in her bloodstream (I think it was codeine) I mean - sheeeesh. That's illegal...but honestly (or does your legal/illegal comment only apply to laws in UK BM ?)
Rosie] if your boy racer comment was levelled at me in any way I take great exception to it and would point out that you seem to be stepping down into the lowly territory of insults, which I too am quite good at. I am a very polite and considerate driver and do not drive along suburban residential streets spinning my tyres with my radio booming. I just like to drive and when conditions allow I will do so quickly.
As to whether you should worry too much about legality or illegality of speeding or indeed any other thing that is illegal - its an incredibly liberating moment when you realise that you are an adult and capable of making judgements and decisions yourself.
I realise that this case is not in UK but in Dubai there is a british woman in prison for posessing a banned substance on arrival because it was in her bloodstream (I think it was codeine) I mean - sheeeesh. That's illegal...but honestly (or does your legal/illegal comment only apply to laws in UK BM ?)
Rosie] if your boy racer comment was levelled at me in any way I take great exception to it and would point out that you seem to be stepping down into the lowly territory of insults, which I too am quite good at. I am a very polite and considerate driver and do not drive along suburban residential streets spinning my tyres with my radio booming. I just like to drive and when conditions allow I will do so quickly.
baroness walmsley
(and she got her plate wrong by THREE digits. I had ONE out. ONE. My Law Professor is writing a letter to appeal it. :o)
rosie] maybe i can drive you to phil's pub on sunday ? ;o]
Boy racers
(st d) You may well be a polite and considerate driver; I believe you. But the general tone of your contribution doesn't give that impression, I have to say. Hence my reaction. Sorry. (rab, Breadmaster) Generally, laws reflect what society finds unacceptable, e.g. theft, assault etc. But sometimes society needs pushing in a particular direction by the introduction of a regulation, for example the drink-drive laws. When they were introduced in 1967 there was widespread opposition, but today nobody seriously argues that one should be allowed to drive pissed and some people rather proudly state they will not drink at all before driving, which is however just a bit too smug.
Call me Thrax.
*Looks rather nervous* Oooh ah, um. I'm not sure if I can contribute much to this colourful debate. Errr... indeed, I'd fancied to wander in merely and say hi to all and ask what's new and interesting/joyful or tearful in everybody's lives - small talk I suppose - but I confess I think I've trodden in something over my depth here.
I don't drive, y'see. Never have, never will. I stare bemused at Jeremy Clarkson and the lad from Class 4C, of an evening's viewing of Top Gear, thinking: It's only cars, boys. Don't get so worked up and passionate about 'em. If they all vanished in a puff of smoke tomorrow, you could still travel by use of your god-given limbs as far as the lavatory, and I've known many who can't But they do AMUSE me, the way they talk as if cars were somehow more critical to our existence than oxygen, water and sunlight. But - and I suppose I have now thought of some connection - I agree with your point about Drink-driving Law, Rosie. As a child, I went to school with one or two kids who could no longer walk, and never would, because they had been run down by people whose self-inflated reliance upon their automobiles had far outgrown their observance of public responsibility - ie. driving pissed.
It has, I do confess, given me a very coloured perspective on the whole thing - perhaps also because I too am similarly physically impaired as some of my former schoolmates(though for different reasons) - and I've developed quite an extreme intolerance for anyone who doesn't adhere to the very strictest discipline while moving around a few tonnes of solid, reinforced metal at considerable speed in the near vicinity of other sentient life. Maybe that makes me sound self-righteous and pious, but I'd rather be both of those things than sort of person who'd get behind the wheel after a few on the grounds that to walk home or get a taxi would be "inconvenient".
I don't drive, y'see. Never have, never will. I stare bemused at Jeremy Clarkson and the lad from Class 4C, of an evening's viewing of Top Gear, thinking: It's only cars, boys. Don't get so worked up and passionate about 'em. If they all vanished in a puff of smoke tomorrow, you could still travel by use of your god-given limbs as far as the lavatory, and I've known many who can't But they do AMUSE me, the way they talk as if cars were somehow more critical to our existence than oxygen, water and sunlight. But - and I suppose I have now thought of some connection - I agree with your point about Drink-driving Law, Rosie. As a child, I went to school with one or two kids who could no longer walk, and never would, because they had been run down by people whose self-inflated reliance upon their automobiles had far outgrown their observance of public responsibility - ie. driving pissed.
It has, I do confess, given me a very coloured perspective on the whole thing - perhaps also because I too am similarly physically impaired as some of my former schoolmates(though for different reasons) - and I've developed quite an extreme intolerance for anyone who doesn't adhere to the very strictest discipline while moving around a few tonnes of solid, reinforced metal at considerable speed in the near vicinity of other sentient life. Maybe that makes me sound self-righteous and pious, but I'd rather be both of those things than sort of person who'd get behind the wheel after a few on the grounds that to walk home or get a taxi would be "inconvenient".
[Raak and St D] Well, you can't get clearer than that, and I'm not sure what to say to it other than that I'm surprised, and I would have thought such an attitude would have been highly unusual, but perhaps I'm wrong.
[Rosie] I agree with everything you say here. And I'd add that in my view - and, I would have thought, perhaps wrongly, in the view of most people - there are of course many laws that are probably unjust or require altering in some way, but the way to deal with that is to lobby to have the law changed, not simply to ignore the law while it is on the statute books. To take a wildly different example, it is illegal for an RE teacher (or indeed any teacher) to teach their students about Wicca and neo-paganism. In fact it is illegal for a teacher even to mention these religions to pupils. I think that that is a ludicrous law. But in the unlikely (though, horribly, not impossible) situation of my becoming an RE teacher, I would obey that law whilst lobbying to have it changed. That's not to say I think all laws should be mindlessly obeyed all the time, but I do think that there should be some fairly hefty justification for breaking a law, certainly more than the fact that it is inconvenient to obey it.
[Rosie] I agree with everything you say here. And I'd add that in my view - and, I would have thought, perhaps wrongly, in the view of most people - there are of course many laws that are probably unjust or require altering in some way, but the way to deal with that is to lobby to have the law changed, not simply to ignore the law while it is on the statute books. To take a wildly different example, it is illegal for an RE teacher (or indeed any teacher) to teach their students about Wicca and neo-paganism. In fact it is illegal for a teacher even to mention these religions to pupils. I think that that is a ludicrous law. But in the unlikely (though, horribly, not impossible) situation of my becoming an RE teacher, I would obey that law whilst lobbying to have it changed. That's not to say I think all laws should be mindlessly obeyed all the time, but I do think that there should be some fairly hefty justification for breaking a law, certainly more than the fact that it is inconvenient to obey it.
boy racer
Rosie] fair enough - I reread it and it does come across a tad cavalier. But, I stick by it though should maybe apologise for the tone. Maybe I should reexpress it -
I love driving and on teh Motorway will generally drive over the, in my view, archaic, draconian and roundly ignored 70 limit.
I greatly dislike those that I consider to be drivers who do not have good motorway etiquette. For me this generally means not screaming up and hanging on someone's bumper until they move out of the way. Also it means pulling aside to let a car that is evidently wishing to drive faster by, unless of course you (or they) are in a fast moving queue anyway. Of course this should only be expected when there is a suitable gap to pull into. If there is a car in front of me that seesm to be refusing to move for no good reason then after a good time I will creep slowly closer then drop back and repeat. I love driving on motorways and am at all times relaxed and the only time I have ever gotten really annoyed whilst driving is when stuck in a jam and late for a plane. I generally tend towards letting people in to a queue in front of me rather than not. It never ceases to amaze me how petty people will be about not letting you into a queue and how angry they will get that you are actually going in front of them in a merging traffic situation or similar. When I see a motorbike approaching will always try to create space for them. Heck. I love driving. Its great. Its great to get little waves of appreciation from bikes shooting past at 120 or flashes from trucks or whatever. I get very annoyed when people who you have stopped to let past do not smile or nod or wave. This is very ignorant. I like smiling and nodding and waving at people.
BM] in the Wicca/RE situation you would be foolish to break the law because it could easily be used against you - though would provide an inteersting test case for teh law. As to having to have sreally strong justifications to break a law, well I am not exactly a murdere or anything, but I break the speed limit (as does everyone) and will occasionally smoke a joint or something. I don't care that its illegal. I really don't. As for traffic law violations, I guess the blasé attitude most people have is because you don't end up with a criminal record for breaking the speed limit. (And please don't say "ah yes but you do if you end up killing someone" because that would be very boring.)
I love driving and on teh Motorway will generally drive over the, in my view, archaic, draconian and roundly ignored 70 limit.
I greatly dislike those that I consider to be drivers who do not have good motorway etiquette. For me this generally means not screaming up and hanging on someone's bumper until they move out of the way. Also it means pulling aside to let a car that is evidently wishing to drive faster by, unless of course you (or they) are in a fast moving queue anyway. Of course this should only be expected when there is a suitable gap to pull into. If there is a car in front of me that seesm to be refusing to move for no good reason then after a good time I will creep slowly closer then drop back and repeat. I love driving on motorways and am at all times relaxed and the only time I have ever gotten really annoyed whilst driving is when stuck in a jam and late for a plane. I generally tend towards letting people in to a queue in front of me rather than not. It never ceases to amaze me how petty people will be about not letting you into a queue and how angry they will get that you are actually going in front of them in a merging traffic situation or similar. When I see a motorbike approaching will always try to create space for them. Heck. I love driving. Its great. Its great to get little waves of appreciation from bikes shooting past at 120 or flashes from trucks or whatever. I get very annoyed when people who you have stopped to let past do not smile or nod or wave. This is very ignorant. I like smiling and nodding and waving at people.
BM] in the Wicca/RE situation you would be foolish to break the law because it could easily be used against you - though would provide an inteersting test case for teh law. As to having to have sreally strong justifications to break a law, well I am not exactly a murdere or anything, but I break the speed limit (as does everyone) and will occasionally smoke a joint or something. I don't care that its illegal. I really don't. As for traffic law violations, I guess the blasé attitude most people have is because you don't end up with a criminal record for breaking the speed limit. (And please don't say "ah yes but you do if you end up killing someone" because that would be very boring.)
All in the eye of the beholder
[Rosie] Not drinking *at all* before you drive is more or less the expected behaviour in this country, so to me there would be no smugness at all in saying such a thing. Hypocricy, possibly, for I'm sure not all who say it adhere to it, but that's a different matter. (I think the actual limit for how much alcohol you're allowed to have in your blood stream is 0.2 promille.)
[Laws] I used to go to work by bike, when I lived and worked in different places to where I live and work now. The bike lane through town was very heavily used during rush hour, and there would always be a few people who would take short-cuts, on the wrong side of the road or on no-biking lanes. I used to ponder over why that made me so annoyed, and realised that it was because the people who do that obviously think that they are worth more than the rest of us. If *everybody* broke *every* law they didn't feel like keeping, chaos and worse would ensue, and very few people think that would be a good idea (including those who blithely ignore speed limits or bike against the flow of traffic, forcing others out of the way). So obviously, only a few people are allowed to do that, because they, and their time, are worth so much more than those of the rest of us. Sorry, I don't buy that. Breadmaster speaks for me, too. Oh, and I also don't drive and don't expect I ever will (I tried to learn once upon a time, and failed. I did learn to fly a glider though, which is much more fun anyway).
[Laws] I used to go to work by bike, when I lived and worked in different places to where I live and work now. The bike lane through town was very heavily used during rush hour, and there would always be a few people who would take short-cuts, on the wrong side of the road or on no-biking lanes. I used to ponder over why that made me so annoyed, and realised that it was because the people who do that obviously think that they are worth more than the rest of us. If *everybody* broke *every* law they didn't feel like keeping, chaos and worse would ensue, and very few people think that would be a good idea (including those who blithely ignore speed limits or bike against the flow of traffic, forcing others out of the way). So obviously, only a few people are allowed to do that, because they, and their time, are worth so much more than those of the rest of us. Sorry, I don't buy that. Breadmaster speaks for me, too. Oh, and I also don't drive and don't expect I ever will (I tried to learn once upon a time, and failed. I did learn to fly a glider though, which is much more fun anyway).
I'm also a natural born goody-goody, so I tend to side with Breadmaster too.
I speed. Sometimes. But I also shout at school-run mothers who block the road by parking on the yellow zig-zags, then remove their children from their car seats straight into the road instead of onto the pavement.
I have very little respect for the law per se at all. OTOH I make up for this by having a very highly-developed sense of what is right which I am pretty unbending in following. The reason the Law does not spend much of its time making a pleasant tinkling sound as it breaks in my presence is - surprisingly - because AFAICS on the whole, the Law and What Is Right (in my opinion) are very much congruent.
I do think that surprising because I really think English Law is an ass. So it must obviously get more right than I usually credit it for.
School Run Mums
Those poor kids! Strapped into cars and fussed over by Mother Goose as they are transported from one ultra-safe environment to another. I walked to school in all weathers (just over half a mile) from the age of 5 but for a couple of years I had to go with the Big Girl Next Door. She was 7. Kids these days have no chance to climb trees, get a "bootful" from the pond, cope with falling over, learn to cross the road or not talk to that funny-looking man. I am extremely grateful I was born in 1942 and not 1992 (say).
Speed limits
(st d) The 70 limit isn't archaic and certainly not draconian. You are taking things too literally. It's there to stop people doing much over 85. A higher limit would lead to everyone going faster still and there'd be a few more accidents. 70 is fast enough, anyway. 50 miles at 70 mph takes 43 minutes, at 85 mph 35 minutes, but on the M25 several hours. You just like driving fast; so do I. But it's a bit naughty, and a bit pointless. :-)
[st d] I thought you had your tongue well and truly planted in your cheek when you wrote your original motorway exposé. Thanks for your clarification - it was your statement "I drive at about 90 most of teh time, occasionally creeping up to about 110 for brief periods or dropping to 70 if the road is clear." that led to my interpretation. In my judgement there is nothing wrong with speed itself, it's where and how and by whom it is used. These days I tend to treat everyone else on the road as incompetent, the idea being to keep alert to the fact that I am controlling a missile of significant mass and an error made by someone else could lead to an early demise - mine.
Of course we are all good drivers, of course we all have superb reactions and car control skills. Naturally all our cars are all in tip-top condition and handle like an F1 top ten machine. If you believe all that then you're a cylinder short of a block. Some of this comes from bitter experience and these days I stick to the speed limit (I cannot afford to get caught) even though there are places where said limits are really silly. Don't get me wrong, I was no angel in my younger days, I'm just thankful still to be here.
By the way, give me a bullet with wheels that will handle, a winding road and no traffic (ha!) and I'll be in seventh heaven. ;-)
Of course we are all good drivers, of course we all have superb reactions and car control skills. Naturally all our cars are all in tip-top condition and handle like an F1 top ten machine. If you believe all that then you're a cylinder short of a block. Some of this comes from bitter experience and these days I stick to the speed limit (I cannot afford to get caught) even though there are places where said limits are really silly. Don't get me wrong, I was no angel in my younger days, I'm just thankful still to be here.
By the way, give me a bullet with wheels that will handle, a winding road and no traffic (ha!) and I'll be in seventh heaven. ;-)
winding roads and no traffic
[Dujon] That would be Lincolnshire (on England's east coast) then, which has one of the highest rates of road deaths in the country. Everyone who likes going fast, especially the motorcyclists, make that mistake. When I was a reporter, I attended so many inquests into the deaths of people who make exactly the same mistake, and over-cook it on corners just as a tractor, or a pensioner, pulls out of a farm gateway. If you're going to speed, please do it on motorways.
Deathwish
(pen) So it's true, then. They say The Fens are even worse, but all sorts of things are said about The Fens and its inhabitants.
"Always be able to stop within the distance you can see"
There is no such thing as a winding road with no traffic. Even if there is no traffic, you can't see that there's no traffic.
Ah so.
[penelope, Raak] Indeed. Hence my 'ha'. Hill climbing is a great way to scratch that itch, but the inital costs are a bit steep these days with all the safety considerations. So I now confine myself to being an old plodder, ever alert to inebriates and idiots. I got rid of my clubman style machine a few years ago and puddle around in a family hatch at present. Chances are that my reactions are not as good as they used to be anyway and there's no way I'm going to test out that assumption on a public road.
Monaco may be the most glamorous Grand Prix but one of least watchable with very little to no overtaking. But persistance by the two Williams drivers finally paid off, despite the best efforts of Alonso to cheat; and I see team orders still apply at Ferrari.
Dujon reaches the top of Celebrity Mornington Crescent as DrQ returns to make it seven. I am glad ITV pulled the rug from under Celeb Wrestling and hope the the same will happen to their Celeb Love Island. Not long now till Big Brother6. I think it is looking ever increasingly like Greg Dyke leaving was one of the best things to happen to the BBC programming.
[Inkspot] It's a few years since I last watched a Monaco Grand Prix (it's the time difference, even if it is televised here) but even then I thought that the latest F1 machines have so rapid acceleration and deceleration rates that they have effectively outgrown the circuit as a competitive venue. Not that I think it will be taken off the schedule, there's probably too much money involved. Even in the days of Moss, Fangio, Brabham, Clarke and their ilk it wasn't the easiest place to navigate around a rival. It must be terrifying these days.
Greg Dyke
(Inkspot) Agreed. Good result, but wrong reason nevertheless.
Didn't we have a loverly time ...
For those that are remotely interested - Rugby II/Ratby I was a roaring success. there's a taste of some of the happenings in the Pilg Game in Orange MC.
[Rosie] So sorry you couldn't make it. Understandable. I had no idea you had pulled out and was still checking with Reception for your arrival by the time the G&T's were served ... :-)
[Rosie] So sorry you couldn't make it. Understandable. I had no idea you had pulled out and was still checking with Reception for your arrival by the time the G&T's were served ... :-)
all sorts
chalk] lovely to meet you - thanks for organising it all. Hope you got home safely. I did, then had a marvellous power snooze.
Rosie] I am not sure I agree on your "there's no point to driving fast". When I drive up to Wales to see my Mum - normally for teh weekend, the AA site tells me that that journey should take me 4h47minutes. I can do it in under 3h30minutes, including a petrolk stop. This is one hell of a difference.
Dujon] Funnily enough that wasn't tongue in cheek. If the road has cars on it I will generally try to get in front of as many as I can. This may seem like me being an idiot fast driver, but actually its because I feel safer this way - if I am overtaking I tend to just keep going because people rarely drive with a big gap between each other so I will just plow on past until either the traffis clears or there is a big gap on my left to pull over into if I feel like it. If the road is very empty indeed I will generally slow down considerably.
Raak/winding roads] There is actually an incredibly beautiful stretch of road in the alps, east of Grenoble, on the way up to Les 2 Alpes which is wondoing and yet you know is clear or not. I used to go out with a girl from there and remember being absolutely terrified once when she started overtaking all teh tourist traffic on blind corners, where the left hand side of teh road dropped off hundreds of metres as teh road was cvarved into the side of a valley, hence the twists. She assured me it was okay, and the next time we drove it she showed me that there is a point as you come onto that stretch where you can see the entire road on your left carved along the valley side, for a very long stretch, and can see any cars that are on it. There being no roads off this long stretch, when you round teh valley side and can suddenly no lonegr see around the corners, you nonetheless know that there is no traffic coming the other way. Its great if you know it, but must be scary for the tourists being overtaken by teh locals as they edge slowly along gawping at the breathtaking scenery.
Rosie] I am not sure I agree on your "there's no point to driving fast". When I drive up to Wales to see my Mum - normally for teh weekend, the AA site tells me that that journey should take me 4h47minutes. I can do it in under 3h30minutes, including a petrolk stop. This is one hell of a difference.
Dujon] Funnily enough that wasn't tongue in cheek. If the road has cars on it I will generally try to get in front of as many as I can. This may seem like me being an idiot fast driver, but actually its because I feel safer this way - if I am overtaking I tend to just keep going because people rarely drive with a big gap between each other so I will just plow on past until either the traffis clears or there is a big gap on my left to pull over into if I feel like it. If the road is very empty indeed I will generally slow down considerably.
Raak/winding roads] There is actually an incredibly beautiful stretch of road in the alps, east of Grenoble, on the way up to Les 2 Alpes which is wondoing and yet you know is clear or not. I used to go out with a girl from there and remember being absolutely terrified once when she started overtaking all teh tourist traffic on blind corners, where the left hand side of teh road dropped off hundreds of metres as teh road was cvarved into the side of a valley, hence the twists. She assured me it was okay, and the next time we drove it she showed me that there is a point as you come onto that stretch where you can see the entire road on your left carved along the valley side, for a very long stretch, and can see any cars that are on it. There being no roads off this long stretch, when you round teh valley side and can suddenly no lonegr see around the corners, you nonetheless know that there is no traffic coming the other way. Its great if you know it, but must be scary for the tourists being overtaken by teh locals as they edge slowly along gawping at the breathtaking scenery.
Wheeeee
As you might expect of me - I'm on the side of driving as fast as is sensible given the road and conditions, regardless of the speed limit on that stretch of road. This may well mean going considerably slower than the advised limit if conditions dictate. I have no qualms about breaking the law by driving at 90-odd (or more) on a good clear motorway, agreeing with those that think that 70mph on a motorway in reasonable weather conditions is a farcically low limit. Remember that's just 10mph faster than you are allowed to go on a single track winding country lane.
Rugbypilg
(Chalky) OK :-) Wish I'd been there.
pilg
rosie] Samantha told me that she had been looking forward to seeing you playig with your bone , and was most disappointed not top have a chance to blow it herself.
Slide cream
(st d) V. Good. I am tickled. I hope she realises that "Trombonists Do It In Seven Positions", as they say. Fairly routine stuff for her, no doubt. My nextdoor neighbour is called Samantha, precisely 28 years younger than me and at present heavily pregnant, not through any action on my part, which in the long term is probably a good thing.
rab'll love this...
*Cross Posted* - and a day later than usual as I was away from my inbox yesterday.
Dear I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue Mailing List Member, We bring you news of a recording of the programme that is taking place at the close of this year's Edinburgh Festival on Monday 29th August (Bank Holiday Monday) at around 6.30pm at the Pleasance Grand. It's a single recording (normally we record two programmes) so the whole event should last around an hour and a half. Tickets go on sale at the Edinburgh Fringe Box Office from Thursday 9th June. They are priced at £7 each. The venue seats 700 so there won't quite as many tickets available as for recent recordings. Again, you'll need to book early to secure a ticket. The Fringe Box Office telephone number is 0131 226 0000 and the website address is www.edfringe.com If this show is of interest, I doubt you'll be able to get through before 9th June, so make a note in the diary to call on Thursday 9th June.
Dear I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue Mailing List Member, We bring you news of a recording of the programme that is taking place at the close of this year's Edinburgh Festival on Monday 29th August (Bank Holiday Monday) at around 6.30pm at the Pleasance Grand. It's a single recording (normally we record two programmes) so the whole event should last around an hour and a half. Tickets go on sale at the Edinburgh Fringe Box Office from Thursday 9th June. They are priced at £7 each. The venue seats 700 so there won't quite as many tickets available as for recent recordings. Again, you'll need to book early to secure a ticket. The Fringe Box Office telephone number is 0131 226 0000 and the website address is www.edfringe.com If this show is of interest, I doubt you'll be able to get through before 9th June, so make a note in the diary to call on Thursday 9th June.
Law Abiding
BM] Just to carry on this discussion about law - as it is quite interesting - If the govt brings in ID Cards, and makes it compulsory to carry them, then would you think that people would carry the card only because of "practical" reasons, or do you think that people would feel a moral obligation to do so, as it was law ? Also I would imagine that there would be a large group of people who would feel a moral obligation to NOT carry the new cards, in order to register their opposition to the new law. How would these people figure ?
Living, as I do, 15 minutes walk from the Fringe Box office, I shall attempt to buy them in person on Thursday 9th rather than listen to an engaged tone for 3/4 hour. Wish me luck.
Except that, allegedly, the box office doesn't open until the following Monday. I'll pop into the society office sometime and ask them...
[St D] Well, I would feel a moral obligation to carry them as it would be the law, but clearly I don't know how widespread such a view would be. For example, in New Zealand it is illegal to drive without having your driving licence on you, so I always had it with me even though there was no "practical" advantage to this. As for the conscientious objectors, I personally don't think their position would be defensible. To my mind it is justifiable to break a law if doing so would bring about more good or cause less harm than keeping the law. But in this case, following the ID card law would obviously do no harm - it would not harm anyone if an opponent of the law did carry their card, and it would benefit no-one for them not to carry it, other than to register their protest at the law. But they can register that protest just as effectively whilst obeying it, which surely means that there is no moral argument for breaking the law, and I would like to think that most people would agree that in such a case one should obey the law rather than break it. I hadn't imagined that there would be people who would break such a law purely because they oppose it, but I don't really understand this mentality that some people seem to have that civil disobedience is the best way to change the law. They seem to think that if you personally don't agree with a law then that gives you carte blanche to break it. Often when they are interviewed on TV they make vague references to "democracy", as if that entailed libertarianism.
ID Cards and the law
(Breadmaster) Driving licences are for people who are permitted to drive. ID cards are for people who are permitted to . . . . . . (fill in as appropriate). Why should I have to carry an ID card everywhere. After all, I know who I am. Disobeying the law while harming no-one else is a very good way to get the law changed.
[Bm] What do you propose as a means to change the law? In the case of ID cards, what would appear to be a law which is unproven to fulful its primary stated purpose (combatting terrorism) and which is proposed to have its costs bourne by the unwilling individual?
Sorry, that second thing wasn't a question. I'm not sure it even qualifies as a sentence...
[Rosie] I don't see why disobeying the law, in an example such as this, would be any more effective at changing the law than not disobeying it. Why would this be more effective than writing to your MP, going on a march, and all the other legitimate means that we have? Surely in the absence of any other considerations, one should obey the law, and so if disobeying it would not achieve anything, as I doubt that it would in this case, one should obey it.
[rab] Wouldn't it make more sense to say that if the law is indeed ineffective as well as burdensome, that is an argument for changing it, not for disobeying it, and if it does indeed prove counter-productive, the government would change it themselves irrespective of whether people disobey it or not?
[rab] Wouldn't it make more sense to say that if the law is indeed ineffective as well as burdensome, that is an argument for changing it, not for disobeying it, and if it does indeed prove counter-productive, the government would change it themselves irrespective of whether people disobey it or not?
Yes but the question I asked was "What do you propose as a means to change the law?" which was not intended as an argument to disobey it. It was a question asking, erm, how you would go about getting a law you didn't like changed. I think.
BM] The poll tax comes to mind, as a law which was eventually abolished because so many people broke it.
(BM) The best strategy for someone who doesn't like the idea of ID cards (to the exclusion of all other considerations) would have been to vote for the Tories. Whatever their manifold defects they do not have the authoritarian frame of mind of New Labour. If they'd got in, of course, the taste of power may well have changed that - it happens with all governments and they need to be constantly watched. They'll try to tell you an ID card is for your benefit. It isn't. It's for theirs. Disobey this lousy pointless law if it comes in, even if just for kicks, or self-esteem.
[rab] Well, like I said, write to your MP, or to the relevant government minister, and if you feel strongly enough start a campaign and go on marches. As for the poll tax, surely that was abolished because there was such a tide of feeling against it and such massive protests, not because people disobeyed it. People disobeying it and its revocation were two effects of the one cause, namely the unpopularity of the law, rather than cause and effect, I'd say.
Sorry - I missed that part of your response to Rosie. To be clear I don't advocate disobedience as a means towards change, but I also don't advocate slavishly following ridiculous regulations laid down by someone else "just because". There has to be a good logical reason, and because "someone else said so" doesn't count.
BM] Something like 10 million people got summonsed for not paying the poll tax, though most just got fined. The credit-checking companies stopped including poll tax debts in credit-worthiness checks, because so many people had debts that it would have made their whole system unworkable. That refusal to pay and the campaigns against it were two sides of a coin - I don't see how you can seperate them out.
ID cards
fior me, the challenge will be to carry it but in such a way that it is useless for its intended purpose. Perhaps I'll have it laminated so that it doesn't get damaged. And then won't fit in any of the readers, oh dear.
Having fully identified myself, may I draw your attention to the spare games slot? What shall we have?
How about another limericks game?
More seriously, how about a revival of Carpe Diem?
More seriously, how about a revival of Carpe Diem?
Hmm, not convinced by Carpe Diem, though I can't really think of anything else. Anyone got something fresh and new?
I've got this salad.
I'd still like a game of Gallifrey Crescent.
New game
Bob the dog (or someone posing as him) seems to have seized the day with Sabogy, but the ruleset is unexplained and the opening move is, to say the least, combative.
I'd like a Headlines game... I know Stevie has just started one on Orange, but that's people-based. How have we played them before? Like Cheddar Headlines?
Sabogy
It was possibly a lurker that created the game sometime before half six this morning
[pen]I say go for it, end Sabogy and create the game.
Stop press
[pen] Haven't we got The Cheddar Valley Gazette running on Orange at present?
...more accurately known as Holmes Raided In Mystery Dawn Swoop.
[UK] Oh. I thought that was mystery-based, which is never my thing, so I hadn't looked. Something had to be done to get rid of the sweary thing though - the same game forced me to bed on Saturday night. Feel free to fold the newspaper game if you don't want it. Fold... geddit? ;o)
How about playing the Flower Game, as mooted by Bob in ...so help me God? :)
I don't think we've ever played Commie Crescent, which might be interesting. The winner is the first to redistribute Mornington Crescent to all the other players.
Practicality
BM] Your example of driving in New Zealand illustrates my point. Of course there is a practical advantage to carrying your driving license whilst driving. This practical advantage is that if stopped by the Police, you would nat have to go through the painful process that may arise from your not carrying it. This is my point with ID cards - one might carry it purely for teh "practical" reason that it is law and it is easier just to obey the lwa and thereby avoid any ridiculous consequences that may arise from not carrying it. But there is no MORAL reason why one should carry an ID card. I think what you fail to realise is that although our moral obligations often comply with legal obligations, many people do not believe that something is a moral obligation simply because it is a legal obligation. This is especially true when it comes to minor traffic violations. I must say that I find your blind obedience quite frightening, in a 1984 kind of way.
Yes but
StD] I know this is an argument where no-one will convince anyone else, but I have a problem with individuals deciding what they are and are not morally obliged to do. I'm sure Harold Shipman believed that he was morally right in relieving these old people of their suffering (and I know that's a reductio ad absurdum, but it is the other end of the same continuum). As for minor traffic offences, the roads are provided and maintained by highway authorities/the government for people to use in cars under certain conditions. Thus I would equate asking people to carry their licence with insisting that cars should be taxed and insisting on speed limits with insisting on insurance or insisting that people should not be under the influence.
On identity cards I would take the French view, that they should be provided cheaply and for all, but that it should not be obligatory to carry one (most French people do, but that's for convenience). However, the government shouldn't argue that they will be good for the country and for security and then try to recoup the entire cost of providing them in their cost.
On identity cards I would take the French view, that they should be provided cheaply and for all, but that it should not be obligatory to carry one (most French people do, but that's for convenience). However, the government shouldn't argue that they will be good for the country and for security and then try to recoup the entire cost of providing them in their cost.
[INJ] Individuals do make their own moral decisions, Shipman included. If you're suggesting a moral principle that laws ought to be obeyed, that's your principle and you're welcome to live by it, but it's still up to everyone else whether they decide to adopt that principle or not.
[INJ] "Cheap" identity cards? Whatever the upfront fee, the entire cost of introducing cards will be borne by the taxpayers. That is where governments get their money from.
[INJ] The only real problem with insisting individuals align their morals with the law is how you go about enforcing it. After all, surely that's what the law is intended to do anyway! When it comes down to it, I don't think it's possible to force someone to adopt a belief - and what are moral values if not beliefs?
[Raak] At the risk of hounding you from server to server on the topic of redistribution, they do, but not equally. :) [Darren] I think I'm happy with the law as a means of controlling behaviour more than belief. It then isn't necessary to believe wholly in the moral force of the law, but to simply act expediently or calculatedly in relation to it. If the law is any good (and sometimes it is very good), its drafters will tend to make some rough calculations about the behaviours it will provoke and try to ensure those give the moral outcome desired.
Simulposted - but still
[Raak, Darren] You're right of course, and I think I've said something that I don't really mean. I suppose I have misgivings that people (including myself), have a tendency to advance a 'moral high ground' defence for something that is really much more to do with convenience. This weakens the force of real, more important, moral stands.
[Cost of ID cards] If there are advantages in things like security, reducing benefit fraud and the like, then the cost of ID cards should be at least partly borne by those budgets. If you don't do that then in effect it's an addition to the government tax take - I'm arguing that it should be neutral or that the cost should come out of general, means-based, progressive taxation..
[Cost of ID cards] If there are advantages in things like security, reducing benefit fraud and the like, then the cost of ID cards should be at least partly borne by those budgets. If you don't do that then in effect it's an addition to the government tax take - I'm arguing that it should be neutral or that the cost should come out of general, means-based, progressive taxation..
[Projoy] I wasn't intending to depict the law as a controller of belief, so much as a set of moral values which are supposedly held by the majority of society (or, more accurately, by the government) but not necessarily by individuals. In this sense, the law's connection with belief is that it's a formal statement of the way the government and/or society believes we should behave.
By way of light relief, and with Pen in mind...
heavily UNrelieved
[Btd] What the f ...?
... and by the way
'pen' has a small 'p'
[Chalky] She should see the doctor about that.
Or at least have the decency to use the proper receptacle for it.
moral obligations
I really think its a fascinating discussion. I must say though ImNotJohn, that there si really no-one else at all who can decide what I am morally obliged to do and not do do. They can give an opinion, they can throw me in jail, they can make me a saint or a pariah, but they cannot really decide what I feel morally obliged to do or not do. Anwya - I have to rush off now, but I do think its fascinatiing - and if yo ugoogle "Moral Obligation Obey Law" you find a lot of papers written on teh subject and it appears that great minds in this area have always and no doubt will alwyas disagree on what the answer is....
CdB Btd and WtF etc
[Btd] Blimey. Thank you very much. I know we talked about CdB and LiR, but what the hell did we say? He's a scary-looking man, anyhow.
[pen] He looks very smug, doesn't he? Always very smug. I wonder what on earth he can find to be smug about.
Sabogy
It's not a bad name for a game, but I wonder what it would be?
Sabogy
attempts to bogey a sabotage come to mind, but I don't know what that is either.
[St D] I wasn't advocating "blind obedience"! On the contrary, I said that there may be times when one is morally obliged to break the law if doing so would bring about more good or prevent more harm. But I do think that if this is not the case one is morally obliged to obey the law, simply from the fact that laws are made by the society which we are part of and from which we benefit. Read Plato's Crito for a rather more extreme defence of this (Socrates argues that one should never break the law, even an unjust one, for this reason).
[Darren] I think most philosophers, at least, would say that a moral value is not a belief, because you believe a proposition (eg "There is a God" or "Tony Blair is a jolly nice chap") but moral values are not really propositions. They may look like propositions (eg "It is wrong to murder") but this is simply a linguistic quirk. The reason is that moral statements don't simply express a fact, they prescribe an obligation - they state what you should do, rather than how things are. This is why many people think that expressions of morality are basically the same as expressions of taste, so that "Murder is wrong" is no more a statement of fact - and therefore no more a belief as such - than "This picture is nice". This probably isn't really very relevant to the discussion, though. I'm just feeling pretentious. But is it objectively true that I am?
[Darren] I think most philosophers, at least, would say that a moral value is not a belief, because you believe a proposition (eg "There is a God" or "Tony Blair is a jolly nice chap") but moral values are not really propositions. They may look like propositions (eg "It is wrong to murder") but this is simply a linguistic quirk. The reason is that moral statements don't simply express a fact, they prescribe an obligation - they state what you should do, rather than how things are. This is why many people think that expressions of morality are basically the same as expressions of taste, so that "Murder is wrong" is no more a statement of fact - and therefore no more a belief as such - than "This picture is nice". This probably isn't really very relevant to the discussion, though. I'm just feeling pretentious. But is it objectively true that I am?
Sabogies
's a bogey, innit, like, summin 's up yer nose.
Call my Sabogy
I would agree with Raak in that it is a shortened phrase almost a slang, it really originates from the estates in Glasgow, in their misunderstanding of what a bidet is for. As in
young child, "Wha's tha da?"
Jimmy "Sabogy"
young child, "Wha's tha da?"
Jimmy "Sabogy"
blind obedience
BM] Fair point - sorry I missed that. I still feel that I side with teh school of thought that says we are not morally obliged to do anything really. Especially not simply obey laws because they are laws. I generally do and will obey laws, I hasten to add.
[St D] So if we are not morally obliged to do anything, would you say that if, for example, you found yourself on a desert island with an extremely annoying companion, and if (by hypothesis) there were no way for your actions ever to be discovered or punished, there would be no moral reason for you not to murder him and make kebabs? I should probably add that I'm inclined to agree that there is no such thing, really, as objective moral obligation, so when I talk about the obligation to obey laws I'm really just speaking for myself. But I'd be interested to see how you answer this one.
[BM] I don't agree with you when you say moral values are not beliefs. When they state what you should do, that's just another way of saying they state how you believe you should act. It's a matter of semantics, and at any rate I do agree that it's probably not enormously relevant. Incidentally, are you claiming that beliefs express fact? That's patently false. The difference between a belief and a fact is that, whereas a person may hold both to be true, the former need not be objectively true. Person A believes there is a god. Person B believes there is no god. How can both their beliefs equal objective fact at the same time?
Kebabs
(BreadM) The moral force behind not murdering your extremely irritating (but presumably unthreatening) companion is that you yourself would not like to be kebabbed. That is an absolute but the example you give is easy to evaluate. Not everything is quite so straightforward.
dead meat
BM] No I wouldn't say that at all. What I (think I am) saying is that there is not really, in my view, a moral imperative to obey a law simply because it is a law. I wouldn't kill someone by who was annoying for kebabs, even if I would never be found out, purely because of I suppose, the "moral reason" that you shouldn't kill people. As it so happens, there is no "practical" reason not to kill the annoying person [assuming that you aren't worried about being lonely or whatever], as the fact that there is to be no come back on it at all has removed the practical reason to not kill someone - because it is against the law and you may end up in the nick. What I think is that the moral obligations that a person feels rest pretty much the same irrespective of what laws exist or are being prepared or are being updated.
If a new law is brought in saying "You can't smoke in pubs" for example, I would not smoke in pubs because I was being asked not to by the Landlord, not because it was against the law. If I was in a pub where the landlord and all the customers were smoking, then I would smoke too. This actually happened in California a year or so ago - having slowly got used to not smoking in bars, I was in Lone Pine (nr Death Valley) and was about to light up at the bar. I stopped myself and said "Forgot I was ion California, sorry" and the barmaid laughed, pulled out an ashtray and said "This is Lone Pine, Honey".
If a new law is brought in saying "You can't smoke in pubs" for example, I would not smoke in pubs because I was being asked not to by the Landlord, not because it was against the law. If I was in a pub where the landlord and all the customers were smoking, then I would smoke too. This actually happened in California a year or so ago - having slowly got used to not smoking in bars, I was in Lone Pine (nr Death Valley) and was about to light up at the bar. I stopped myself and said "Forgot I was ion California, sorry" and the barmaid laughed, pulled out an ashtray and said "This is Lone Pine, Honey".
[Darren] I don't think Bm was suggesting that beliefs were facts, more that they are ideas about what is. Ideas about what ought to be are a whole other class. I think it's overoptimistic to hope that any system of law will be an encoding of some sort of consistent moral philosophy. This is not least because there are usually contradictory premises even where the law is set out from first principles, leaving Supreme Courts to scratch their heads and deliver hung verdicts. The law represents just an accretive set of some morals some people had at some points in history (which is not to say it's arbitrary, just tremendously compromised by the practical realities of how it is made). My naive working assumption is usually that whoever made the law did so for the general benefit, so it's better to have obedience as the default position. There are also laws (such as speed limits) where an arbitrary line was drawn which could as easily have been drawn somewhere else (there's nothing intrinsically safer about 70mph over 71mph), but the benefit for all in drawing a line is that it gives a common framework, arbitrary though it may be, that enables drivers to make consistent calculations about risk and behaviour - so the law is worth obeying on a "what if everyone broke it?" sort of basis, I think. [Bm] I'm with you: no objective force for morals. One can easily chip away any moral principle (if you're willing to take an unpopular position) by questioning the source of its authority. You can chip away at facts in this way too, usually by resorting to that undergraduate nuclear option, the epistemological question, but it does strike me as harder.
Epistemology
(Projoy) It's an awful long time since I was an undergraduate, so what is The epistemological question? And, presuming you answer, how do you know that?
The epistomological question is "Ah, but how can you know anything?" and one usually sees it used when its invoker has lost the argument. :)
[Projoy] I doubt anybody really has a consistent moral philosophy. I certainly don't. I'm not entirely sure your view of laws is any different from mine. We just worded it differently. At any rate, I also agree there is no objective force for morals. Oh, and the loser in invoking The epistemological question is probably the highbrow equivalent of Godwin's Law.
I used to think that morality was no more than personal preference, delusionally experienced (as our perceptions usually are) as external to oneself. What else could moral statements be, since they are not demonstrable matters of fact? These days I'm not so sure, mainly due to personal experience that I don't think I can describe. A third possibility is that they are indemonstrable matters of fact, which is C.S. Lewis' position in "The Abolition of Man", which I mentioned here recently. They can be learned only by certain experiences, but the experience cannot be communicated. They cannot even be demonstrated to oneself, only lived by or not.