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AVMA Take 2
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Yes, it's another round of that classic guessing game - Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, Abstract [or any combination thereof]. This effort - '03/'04 should address any queries, but then again, may just serve to confuse and baffle which some might say is the point of the game. Patience, integrity and a decent search engine may be useful ....
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[Q, CdM] No, it is not the Eiffel Tower. My reply to CdM meant that it is not between 119 and 122 years old.
[Software] There may be vegetables growing on it but that was not what I meant.
Is it less than 122 years old?
Progress at last!
[Irouléguy] Yes, yes it is.
The Forth (railway) Bridge?
Does it perform a specific function?
[Néa] You have missed out CdM's bridge question!
[CdM] Not a bridge.
[Rosie] No.
[Bigsmith] Yes.
Is it in England?
Is it a tower?
[Quendalon] No.
[Graham III] Yes.
Is its specific function to broadcast signals?
[Raak] Yes! (audience starting to prick up their ears)
Is it north of Paris?
Still in use?
Functional rather than decorative?
Not it's getting more difficult
[Irouléguy] Yes.
[INJ] As far as I have been able to tell, the answer is no.
[Rosie] Yes is probably the best answer, but it's not straightforward.
Is it on land?
[Kim] Yes.
Did it collapse in 1991?
A recap:
A mostly metal broadcasting tower in Europe, but not in England, Italy, or Paris, built at least 50 years ago but less than 119, still in use, not open to the public, not the Cake Nose Tower, more southerly than Paris.
The original Radio Luxemburg transmitter?
Raak] More northerly than Paris.
Resisting the temptation to get another question in
[Raak] Probably not still in use.
[Graham III] No, it didn't.
[Irg] Not the original Radio Luxemburg transmitter.
Is it in Scandinavia?
[Raak] No.
Is it in Western Europe?
(i.e. one of Germany, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, The Netherlands and outlying islands)
Being negative today, me
[Graham III] No.
Anything to do with astronomy?
An early warning system?
On an island?
More negativity
[Rosie] No.
[Software] No.
[Quendalon] No.
Is it in a country that used to be in the USSR?
(ie one of Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Russia)
[Irouléguy] Yes!
Is it named after its designer?
cheeky, but...
[Irg] It is indeed.
Is it a hyperboloid structure?
going for the hat-trick...
He knows, really
[Irg] Yes!!
Is it more than 86 years old and less than 89 years old?
It's so tempting...
*rolls eyes (own)*
[CdM] Yes.
[Irouléguy, CdM] Stop grandstanding before I name the bloody thing myself. :-D
Does it share one of its names with an underground station?
CdM, Quendalon] Not grandstanding, but teeing you up - I'm away at the weekend,so for once I don't want to take the baton. This is fun, though...
It's in the CCCP, innit
[Irg] Er. None that I know of, but there are many underground systems with stations whose names I'm ignorant of. Unless you mean its name in English translation, in which case the answer is Yes.
Oh, all right then...
Is it the Shukhov Tower in Moscow?
And about time, too
[CdM] Of course. The hyperboloid baton returned to CdM.
Gah
[Irouléguy] I'm sorry - I didn't remember that it's also called the Shabolovka. Which is of course also the name of a Moscow metro station.
Néa] No apologies necessary. I only learnt that yesterday from reading the Wiki page - and I should have said Metro rather than underground. It just amused me as an MC connection. Good topic!
Credit for the last obviously goes first to Irouléguy.
VEGETABLE and MINERAL. However, I will give an immediate clue that the vegetable element is much more fundamental than the mineral element.
Is the vegetable wood?
I just managed to restrain myself, since I'm on holiday from this weekend for the next 2 weeks.
And the mineral metal?
Does it begin with P?
Unique?
Man-made?
Wood? In part, yes
Metal? No (or to the extent there is any metal involved, it is highly tangential and inessential --even more tangential than the rest of the mineral component).
Begins with P? No.
Unique? Yes.
Man-made? Yes.
Is it more than 100 years old?
More than 100 years old? Both Yes and No are defensible answers.
One clarification. I said Yes to "man-made?", and that is the best answer. But No would also be defensible. There. That's clearer now, right?
Can it be seen from a mile away (without optical aid)?
Clearer? Clear as anything ever is with you, y'bugger. :-)
Is this a monument or other well known structure which was formed, sculpted or roughly shaped within the last 100 years and made out of a substance formed over a hundred years ago which could possibly include vegetable material but is probably made up of various metals (i.e. anything 'heavier' than hydrogen) and which is still extant?
A yes/no answer will suffice.
Can it be seen from a mile away? I am very tempted to say that yes and no are both defensible answers. However, I will say that the answer is No (almost certainly) unless you are talking about a mile away vertically, in which case the answer is Yes.
Is ... extant? Not exactly sure where you were going with that, but the best answer has to be No.
Is it in Europe?
And if you answer "yes and no" I shall weep.
Hampton Court Maze?
In Europe? Yes.
Hampton Court Maze? *The audience gasps collectively and bursts into sustained rapturous applause* No.
A maze somewhere in England?
A maze? Yes.
Somewhere in England? No.
Is the mineral water?
Water? No. For free, I will tell you that the mineral just refers to what is underfoot as part of this maze (that's why I said the vegetable element is much more fundamental). Most of the hard work has been done here; you just need to find out where this particular maze is.
Is this maze in a church or cathedral?
In a church or cathedral? No. (Visible from above, remember.)
In Wales?
Is it in Belgium?
In the grounds of a church or cathedral? No.
In Wales? No.
In Belgium? No.
North of Paris?
North of Paris? No.
In France?
Hellenic, like the hymn?
Hidden textA maze in Greece?
Public Service Announcement: Do not reveal the message in the previous move. Just trust me, ok.
Grecian? No.
In England?
(and GIII asked "in France?")
Oops, and Rosie asked about England. How about, In Eastern Europe (i.e. the old Eastern Bloc)?
You are winding your way in towards the center
In France? No. (sorry)
In England? Still No.
In Eastern Europe? No.
Made within the last 200 years?
Is it, by any chance, in Italy?
Dear Auntie CdM, I know I shuddent of done, but I cuddent resist clicking the "reveal" button like you tole me not to and now my sides av split. Wat can I do? Yours etc. Worried of Whitechapel.
Within last 200 years? Yes and No are both defensible. (See 100 years, above.)
In Italy? No.
Dear Worried. You can listen to me say, "I told you so".
The maze at Schönbrunn Palace?
The maze at Schönbrunn Palace? Yes!

"The Maze at Schönbrunn was laid out between 1698 and 1740... During the 19th century the Maze was gradually abandoned until in 1892 the last remaining hedges were felled. In autumn 1998 a new maze extending over 1.715 m with a viewing platform at its centre was laid out taking the historical model into account where possible."

*leaves the baton at the center for Raak to find*
By the way, I very nearly chose Hampton Court Maze, deciding only at the last minute to be a bit less Anglocentric. Had I stuck with that, Rosie's guess would have been one of the most impressive we have seen in the game to date.
(CdM) V kind! Unfortunately I know of no other mazes.
Left, left, right, right, straight on, over, under, back three squares, up a ladder, half-twist, strile, left, right, flamethrower.

The next is MINERAL (primarily) with an ANIMAL connection.

Man-made?
Does it comprise of more than one mineral?
is it a tool?
[Rosie] Man-made.
[Inkspot] Very likely more than one mineral.
[Software] Not a tool.
Is the mineral predominantly wood?
Doh! Sorry, is the material predominantly metal?
I don't know what's the matter with me these days. I must be getting old.
[Kim] Not predominantly metal.
Decorative?
other mineral is natural (as opposed to man-made)?
[CdM] Yes, one could say that it is decorative.
[Software] Natural, yes; in a state of nature, no.
Is the material mostly stone?
[I] Yes, mostly stone.
But is it art?
[S] Yes, it could be considered to be art.
Is it associated with one part of the world?
[I] It is associated with one part of the world.
Does it decorate the exterior of a building?
Unique?
The Sphinx?
Bigger than a phone box?
[Rosie] Does not decorate the exterior of a building.
[CdM] Unique.
[Software] Not the Sphinx.
[Projoy] Definitely bigger than a phone box.
Is the animal connection that it is manmade?
Is it in Europe?
[G III] It is manmade, but there is a more specific animal connection.
[I] It is in Europe.
A statue or sculpture?
[CdM] Not a statue or sculpture.
The bear pits of Berne?
[I] *Gasp of horror* "Not -- not the Dreaded Bear Pits of Berne!!!" No.
The Bullring, Brum? :o)
Is it a building?
Is the connected animal human?
[S] Not the Bullring.
[G III] It's a building.
[K] The animal is human.
Is the surname of the human one of the words on the card?
Is the building pre 1900?
[Kim] The human's surname is not on the card.
[Inkspot] It is pre-1900.
Is it north of Paris?
Is this going to become my signature question?
Was it built by an ancient culture?
In Eastern Europe (i.e. the old Eastern bloc)
(this is going to be my signature question)
Is it in England?
[I] After closely examining Google Maps, this is not north of Paris.
[G III] Not ancient.
[P] Not in Eastern Europe.
[R] Not in England.
In Austria?
[Software] a ripple of near-applause Not in Austria.
Switzerland?
[Kim] Not in Switzerland.
Germany?
[G III] Germany? Ja wohl!
A castle?
Scloss Neuschwanstein? The animal connection being the Schwan?
Cathedral Church of Our Lady, Munich?
[Néa] Applause!
[Projoy] Boos!
[irach] Cheering! Neuschwanstein it is. The animal connection I had in mind was Ludwig II.
Rats, I nearly just guessed that outright last night.
Okay….. This one is “ABSTRACT, WITH AN ANIMAL CONNECTION”
A work of art?
[Raak] Not a work of art.
The smile of the Cheshire cat?
[Rosie] No smile. No cat, Cheshire, or otherwise.
Is the animal in question human?
[Kim] Yes, the animal element is human.
A piece of music?
[Inkspot] Not a piece of music.
Does the name of the human appear in the answer?
[Rosie] Yes. The name of the person is in the answer.
Is it a unit of measurement?
[Inkspot] Not a unit of measurement.
Anything to do with the scientific world?
{Rosie] No scientific world connection.
Does this encompass art?
e.g. the [name of] school or style.
[Dujon] No, doesn't encompass art per se, except that the person named in the answer has been the subject of some works of art.
Royalty? (any country)
[Rosie] The person in question was not royalty, but did associate with royalty.
Was the person European?
[Irouléguy] The most pertinent answer is yes, the person was European.
Was the human a military person?
[Dujon] The person was a warrior, yes.
Beowulf?
Was the human alive before 1800?
Civis Romanum erat?
[CdM] Not Beowulf.
[Kim] If the person actually lived, it was before 1800 AD.
[Iroulëguy] No Civus Romanum erat.
A character from a fairy tale?
Male?
{Inkspot] Not acharacter from a "fairy tale".
[Nea] Yes, male.
Is is a character of myth or legend?
Is he a God?
[Kim] Yes, a caharacter in myth or legend.
[Inkspot] Not a God. A mortal, but with divine connections, nonetheless.
From Celtic myth and/or legend?
[Irouléguy] Not Celtic.
Scandinavian?
[Rosie] Not Scandinavian.
Someone like Rob Roy?
Greek?
[Software] Not Rob Roy.
[Kim] Yes, Greek.
Achilles' heel?
Sword of Damocles?
[Graham III] Not Sword of Damocles.
[Iroulëguy] ACHILLES' HEEL is it! Take it away.
WOO-HOO! I've cheered so much I feel like a Trojan -
Hidden texthoarse
. OK, our next is ABSTRACT with ANIMAL and VEGETABLE connections.
...also involving MINERAL.
Any Biblical connection?
irach] Any Biblical connection? No
Is the animal connection larger than a humanly constructed toaster?
Vegetable connection trees?
CdM] Is the animal connection larger than a humanly constructed toaster? True pedantry offers a number of possible answers, but the useful answer is yes. Rosie] Vegetable connection trees? Noak.
Is the human construction (larger than a toaster) a building?
Software] Is the human construction (larger than a toaster) a building? Not a building, and it's not a human construction.
More precisely, it's not a physical construction, or a physical anything. 'Bigger than a toaster' refers to the animal connection, not the thing itself.
Is it something like 'on the horns of a dilema'?
Software] Is it something like 'on the horns of a dilema'? It's not entirely unlike, but it's nowhere close.
Is the answer a phrase, proverb etc?
Rosie] Is the answer a phrase, proverb etc? *applause, cheering, etc* Yes!
Is the animal connection human?
Is the phrase a kind of warning?
CdM] Is the animal connection human? Yes
Rosie] Is the phrase a kind of warning? No
A white elephant?
Though I struggle with the mineral.
Is the answer a proverb (pace Rosie)?
Software - A white elephant? No - the mineral is implied in the answer, but not named. And don't forget the vegetable.
Kim - Is the answer a proverb (pace Rosie)? Barking up the wrong tree.
Is the vegetaale a fruit?
Is it the Jolly Green Giant?
Inkspot - Is the vegetable a fruit? *applause mixed with laughter from the audience* Yes
Kim - Is it the Jolly Green Giant? No no no
The apple of one's eye?
(Irg) Kim wishes me peace.
Rosie] The apple of one's eye? No
Or he's trying to drink at the same speed as you...
Is the fruit a commonplace edible item?
(Irg) No chance, then. :-)
Rosie] Is the fruit a commonplace edible item? Yes
Is the fruit a citrus?
The Big Apple?
CdM] Is the fruit a citrus? The answer's not a lemon
irach] The Big Apple? NYet
The Garden of Eden?
Is the phrase in question also the title of a work of lliterature
Rosie] The Garden of Eden? Adam fine question - but no
irach] Is the phrase in question also the title of a work of literature? No
So angry I could crush a grape?
Is the answer the title of an artistic work?
Inkspot] So angry I could crush a grape? Ire think not
Kim] Is the answer the title of an artistic work? No
Is the fruit a berry?
The fruit of our labours?
Kim] Is the fruit a berry? *laughter, followed by earnest audience discussion* Probably, yes
Software - The fruit of our labours? No
A berry by name, but not by strict definition?
A blackberry?
** motions towards ear **
Is it green and goes up and down in a lift? A gooseberry?
Graham III] A berry by name, but not by strict definition? No - other way round (probably)
Software - A blackberry? No
Inkspot} Is it green and goes up and down in a lift? A gooseberry? Possibly, unlikely, and no.
Is it a berry within the botanical (as opposed to common) meaning of the word?
Kim] Is it a berry within the botanical (as opposed to common) meaning of the word? *applause* Yes (probably)
'Probably' because the exact meaning of the word on the card is ambiguous, but this is the most likely meaning.
Is the human connection one or more actual persons?
The phrase :"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou beside me?"
Kim] Is the human connection one or more actual persons? *much discussion in the audience* If actual=named, then yes.
irach - The phrase :"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou beside me?" And wilderness is paradise, e? no
Are the named persons fictional characters?
Kim] Are the named persons fictional characters? I refer the honourable gentleman to his previous question. Fictional - almost certainly (though I have seen one website that says the opposite).
Is the berry a grape?
Resisting the temptation to ask whether it is "Attack of the killer kumquats"
Graham III] Is the berry a grape? No
I say tomahto and you say tomayto?
Is the human element a collection of individuals (eg, a class, a group, etc)
ImNotJohn] I say tomahto and you say tomayto? *some applause* No, nay
Kim - Is the human element a collection of individuals (eg, a class, a group, etc) No
Yankee Doodle Dandy?
Is the answer a popular food product?
Software - Yankee Doodle Dandy? No sirree
Kim - Is the answer a popular food product? No - a food product is two of the words on the card, but it's not the answer
Heinz Baked Beans?
Graham III - Heinz Baked Beans? No
Is it a jam or marmalade?
irach] Is it a jam or marmalade? No
Is it ice cream?
A fruit milk shake?
Kim] Is it ice cream? Nein (ty), nein
irach - A fruit milk shake? No
Is the food product shown on the card normally sweet-tasting?
Kim] Is the food product shown on the card normally sweet-tasting? *applause* No
Is the berry an olive?
Popeye and Olive Oil?
CdM - Is the berry an olive? *some applause* No
irach - Popeye and Olive Oil? No
Is the fruit pickled?
irach] Is the fruit pickled? *the audience rise as one person, cheering* YES!
Can one find this on the supermarket shelf today?
Software] Can one find this on the supermarket shelf today? One can find products with the same name on supermarket shelves - whether they are exact product referred to is doubtful.
Is it an ethnic food from the East?
Is the answer in the form 'so-and-so's such-and-such'?
irach] Is it an ethnic food from the East? No
ImNotJohn] Is the answer in the form 'so-and-so's such-and-such'? *cries of 'oooh' from the audience* No, but not that far off - in two ways.
Actually, the audience should have applauded part of irach's question.
Does it involve mango?
irach] Does it involve mango? No mag
Does it involve citrus?
Phileas Fogg's gentleman's relish?
irach] Does it involve citrus? No, Mel
Software] Phileas Fogg's gentleman's relish? No

It's Friday, it's five o'clock, it's Crackerjack! time for a summary, I feel

The whole thing takes the form of something described by “a phrase, proverb, etc”, though it is not a proverb. It includes two words describing a food product, and the name(s) of one or more persons, who is/are almost certainly fictional. The human element is not a collection of persons.

The food is derived from a fruit. Although the exact meaning of the word on the card is ambiguous, the fruit in question is almost certainly a berry, botanically speaking. The fruit is not lemon, blackberry, gooseberry, grape, mango, tomato or olive (though the last two got some applause), and it is not normally sweet-tasting. It is a common-place edible item.

The food product is pickled (sale being the mineral implied in the answer). It is not Heinz baked beans, jam or marmalade, ice cream, or a fruit milk shake. You can find food products with the same name on supermarket shelves, though they are probably not the exact product referred to in the words on the card. It is not an ethnic food from the East, though part of that question garnered applause.

The phrase is not a kind of warning, or the title of a literary or artistic work. [Note – the phrase may have been used as a title, but that’s not where you know it from] The phrase is not: the apple of one’s eye; so angry I could crush a grape; the fruit of our labours; a loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou beside me; Popeye and Olive Oil; Yankee Doodle Dandy. The phrase does not take the form 'so-and-so's such-and-such', but that is close in two distinct ways.

This game is missing one of its usual players, who might well have got this by now, or at least posed a particularly pertinent question.
It is associated with Indian food?
A pound of....?
Peter piper's pickled pepper?
... Or rather, the entire phrase "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled pepper" ?
Begin with the letter P?
Capers?
Well, we've a worthy winner! The complete Peter Piper phrase it is - one pepper-flavoured baton handed over to irach.
The next is ABSTRACT WITH MINERAL AND PROBABLE VEGETABLE CONNECTIONS `
Is this a phrase?
[Software] Yes, a phrase.
Does this phrase relate to extraterrestial bodies - or body?
[Dujon] Totally terrestrial.
Is the mineral a liquid?
[irach] Not a liquid.
Is the mineral reference rock?
Old as the hills?
Shut up at the back there.
is the probable vegetable wood?
Is it culturally specific to English?
[Dujon] Not a rock.
[Rosie} Not "old as the hills".
[Iroulëguy] The probable vegetable is not wood
[ImNotJohn] the phrase was coined in English, but is not culturally specific.
Is the mineral combustible?
[Rosie] The mineral is non-combustible.
Could the phrase be construed as a "saying"?
[Software} Not a "saying", but a frequently used term.
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