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AVMA Take 2
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Yes, it's another round of that classic guessing game - Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, Abstract [or any combination thereof]. This effort - '03/'04 should address any queries, but then again, may just serve to confuse and baffle which some might say is the point of the game. Patience, integrity and a decent search engine may be useful ....
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To do with religion?
The environment?
[Raak] to do with religion -- NO

To clarify: Religion, or things to do with religion, can be related in a particular way to The Answer On The Card, but is The Answer to do with religion (or its things) more than to do with other things? NO. This is what I meant in my answer to "to do with art" and "to do with mathematics". Keep going, though.

[Dandalf] is it the environment? -- NO.

Is this an emotion?
[Chalky] an emotion -- NO.
Is it a hobby or pastime?
[Chalky] a hobby or pastime -- NO.
Is a human element required?
If it's not something you can do, is it something you can be?
Science?
[Inkspot] a human element required -- fundamentally YES
[Projoy] if it's not something you can do, is it something you can be -- NO... *audience wakes up and makes encouraging murmurs*
[Dandalf] Science -- NO.
Thought?
[Raak] Thought -- NO... thought is more closely related to this than most of the previous answers, but it's still a fair way off.
Two further clarifications: I have come across this in a work of fiction, but it is not really from fiction. And some people may involve this in a hobby or pastime, but I wouldn't classify the words on the card as a hobby or pastime. I'm not being intentionally vague, honest...
Is this something spiritual?
[Tuj] something spiritual -- NO
A family?
(beats me what the mineral connection would be, in that case, but since we're floundering, it's probably worth a shot or two in the dark!)
[Projoy] a family -- NO.
Wanna hint?
It's definitely not something you do?
(i.e. one does)
[Projoy] It is definitely not something one does, in the way that one does not "do" a door, or one does not "knitting" or "biology textbook". The answer is still abstract, however.
Ethics?
Would this be considered a skill?
Looking at it, knitting, even if in the sense of a noun, is not a great example. Apologies if I've been too pedantic. I hope you get the idea.
[Tuj] Ethics - NO
[Chalky] a skill - NO, although a measure of skill is certainly related to its existance.
(a measure of = an amount of some kind of)
Is it something the brain can do?
Is the vegetable a plant?
Is this anything to do with being funny/having a sense of humour?
Is the mineral water?
[Tuj] something the brain can do -- NOt strictly, although activity of the brain is usually required. *a smattering of claps from the audience*
[Inkspot] is the vegetable a plant -- NO would be least misleading.
[Chalky] to with being funny/a sense of humour -- NO. Hmmm, there is a humour component in the work of fiction I mentioned earlier. But in the main, NO.
[Irouléguy] is the mineral water -- NO would be most helpful here.
hoookay...
To summarise:

This abstract with animal, vegetable and mineral connections is more common in some places than others but is not primarily connected to geography. It involves a human element in some way, more specifically some activity of the brain and even more specifically thought, but is not actually any of these. There is some relationship with a group of people. Only humans construct it (although this may be debated).

Religion, mathematics, art, and non-human animals can have something to do with it but only in a certain sense, and it can be found in at least one fictional work (but not only there) and some people may involve it in a hobby or pastime. It is not in itself an action, process or activity but a certain amount of skill is related to its existance.

It is not: this game, a genie, a degree in woodland conservation, from fiction, an activity, a process, agriculture, evolution, a settlement, the environment, an emotion, a hobby, something you can do or be, science, thought, something spiritual, a family (or group of people), ethics, a skill, a plant, water, to do with death or to do with humour.

I could also say that it should probably be considered to have abstract connections as well, but although strictly accurate, that may not be helpful. I think this summary should be very helpful indeed.

Is it something to do with the visual sense?
more questions, less explanation!
[CdM] something to do with the visual sense -- YES and NO. *several "ooooh"s from the audience, quickly shushed*
Something to do with imagination?
[Raak] something to do with imagination -- NO (except where in agreement with details in paragraph 2, above ("Religion, mathematics...")).

Oh, and apologies for spelling "existence" wrong. Oops.

Something to do with hearing, taste, touch, or smell?
[CdM] to do with hearing, taste, touch or smell -- NO.
Does it have an entry in wikipedia?
Is the answer more than one word [apart from the in/definite article]?
[Phil] Does it have an entry in wikipedia -- NO... *audience starts to take more notice*
[Chalky] more than one word -- YES!
Is it a concept?
[Phil] a concept? YES and NO. *more oooooohs*
Do all of these "YES and NO" answers reflect distinct different meanings of the words on the card?
To do with money?
I think I've chosen a stupid topic.
[CdM] NO. If I understand your meaning correctly, then the words on the card are together a whole entity, and I am not looking at each word in isolation, and the answer does not have two different meanings (so, for example, it is not like the expression "knock off").

The yesnoyesno is because

    (a) there are the properties of the thing on the card -- the "thing" that the words on the card are about, and the way(s) in which it can exist.

    (b) there are things to which the answer/words on the card can be to do with, because of the nature of the answer/words on the card. Thus I have problems saying "no" to "to do with xyz" because yes, it can have something to do with xyz.


To say much more without other questions to answer would be to give it away completely.

[Projoy] to do with money -- NO. (I am giving up on the broader meaning of "to do with" from here on, since it's causing too much trouble.)

How about some good old questions like many of the ones from the first topic in this game, which was also an abstract? Start with "did it exist in ...".

Was this an invention?
Is this some type of human relationship?
OK, did it exist in 1800?
(actually, slight rephrase: "Did it exist by 1800)
[Tuj] an invention -- YES if you mean something made up by people
[Irouléguy] a type of human relationship -- NO
[Projoy] did it exist by 1800 -- YES!
Did it exist by 1000?
[CdM] did it exist by 1000 -- YES
did it exist almost since the dawn of mankind?
[irach] did it exist almost since the dawn of mankind -- NO!
Did it exist by 1CE?
(at least we can get into the right millennium)
Is it a social system?
*feels very old* I had to look up "CE".
To do with language?
[Projoy] Did it exist by 1CE -- YES. One place definitely had examples of this before 1CE, and another had examples of it by 20CE but I can't be more exact than that.
[Tuj] a social system -- NO.
[Raak] To do with language -- YES! *audience bursts into loud and sustained applause*
to do with codes/cyphers?
Did it first appear in the Middle East?
[Phil] to do with codes/cyphers -- NO
[Projoy] first appear in the Middle East -- NO
To do with one particular language?
[Raak] to do with one particular language -- NO.
Is it to do with an aspect of written language?
Is it to do with an aspect of spoken language?
A book or books?
[Juxtapose] to do with an aspect of written language -- YES *audience claps enthusiastically*
[Tuj] to do with an aspect of spoken language -- YES *clapping subsides somewhat*
[Phil] A book or books -- NO *gasps and oooohs from the audience*
law?
[Phil] law -- NO *audience start arguing*
+s
something to do with instructions?
[Phil] something to do with instructions -- YES but not only or always so. *more gasps and oooohs*
Cookery books?
[Raak] cookery books -- NO
Rules?
Card games?
[Projoy] Rules -- NO.
[Raak] Card games -- NO.
In a particular script/alphabet?
The invention of the bound codex, superceding scrolls?
Language schools?
Some sort of command?
[Projoy] in a particular script/alphabet -- NO
[Raak] the invention of the bound codex -- NO
[Dandalf] language schools - NO *someone starts clapping, but is quickly hushed*
[Tuj] some sort of command -- NO.
Grammar?
Connected to translation?
[Rosie] Grammar -- NO *a few claps from more excitable members of the audience*
[CdM] connected to translation -- often YES but not necessarily *cheering starts*
Dictionaries?
It is the lack of wikipedia entry that still has me stumped...
[Raak] dictionaries -- NO! *audience cheers loudly with enthusiastic applause*
[CdM] not everything in the wikipedia has its own entry.
A chrestomathy?
wait a moment while I look that up...
[Raak] a chrestomathy -- NO. (it's in wikipedia, anyway).
Anything to do with books?
[Tuj] Anything to do with books -- YES, some.
Back in a few hours... do carry on.
Diaglossia?
Some sort of system of translation?
(except that would be a process, I guess)
A verse form?
Spelling tests?
A public library?
Something to do with the word "version"?
Printing?
bucket-o-hints
[Raak] diaglossia -- NO (had to check that one too)
[Projoy] some sort of system of translation -- NO, but it can be very useful in this.
[Projoy] a verse form -- NO.
[Phil] spelling tests -- NO, but spelling is an issue.
[Dandalf] a public library -- NO, but it can often be found there.
[Tuj] something to do with the word "version" -- NO, but it often has different versions.
[Irouléguy] printing -- NO, but it is most often printed.
Transliteration?
(except I guess there must be examples of that way into the BCE dates).
(and it's an activity and a process, curses!)
A testimony?
...which isn't right but I'm hoping I might guess something which could point us the right way. Not likely, eh?
Roadsigns?
By, which I of course mean "signage" in general, since you can find it in libraries...
[Projoy] Transliteration -- NO, but transliteration is sometimes involved.
[Tuj] A testimony -- NO.
[Projoy] roadsigns/signage -- NO.
Taking notes?
A text book?
[Tuj] Taking notes -- NO.
[Phil] A text book -- NO.
Begins with a P?
Pheww
[Tuj] Begins with a P -- many of them do. But the answer doesn't. So I have to say NO.
Mmmhwwhhwa? I think I give up.

at least for now.
A group of words?
who am i kidding
[Tuj] A group of words -- *audience gasps* YES it is but that's not The Answer, so NO.
A particular class of word such as noun, verb etc.?
[Projoy] a particular class of word -- *audience gasps again* NO!
Something to do with an encyclopedia?
[CdM] something to do with an encyclopedia -- NO...
Home stretch?
OK, this is getting very long, so here's another summary where the other one left off.

The answer has to do with language, more so written than spoken.
Two places definitely had examples of it before 20CE.
It is an invention, in that it is something made up by people. It is not just a concept.
It has something to do with instructions (although perhaps not directly as much as I first thought).
It is often but not necessarily connected to translation and can be very useful in this.
It has something to do with a book or books.
It can often be found in a public library.
It is most often printed.
It often has different versions.
Spelling is an issue.
Transliteration is sometimes involved.
It is a group of words (kind of) but not a particular class of word.
Many instances of the answer start with the letter P.

It is not "a dictionary" and is not "something to do with an encyclopedia". It did not first appear in the Middle East and is not to do with one particular language.

The audience or some of the audience were impressed when the law, grammar or language schools were mentioned, although it is none of these things.

Oh, and the answer has more than one word (plus an indefinite article), not starting with the letter "P", and it does not have its own wikipedia entry.

An Index?
Forget that; it has a wikipedia entry...
And it is only one word. On the bright side, it doesn't begin with the letter P.
a particular way of organising a group of words?
(it's not a concordance either, as that's in Wikipedia, too)
:-)
[CdM] an index -- NO
Don't think of an elephant!!
I now keep wanting to say anything beginning with P, such as paragraph, page and punctuation.
[Projoy] a particular way of organising words -- NO.
[Projoy] *ROFL*
Is there a typical number of words in this group (or can it vary wildly from a few words to hundreds)?
I know it's not my go, but....
It's not a particular type of morpheme, is it?
Is it an elephant? If not, does its physical manifestation (as a group of words) typically occur only in a particular type (or types) of book?
had to look that one up too.
[Projoy] a particular form of morpheme -- NO
old-world charm...
[CdM] an elephant - that is not the answer.
[CdM] YES! *wild cheering*. the physical manifestation of elephant as a group of words typically only occurs in a particular type of book. I think.
[Projoy] I meant a particular type of morpheme (still NO) Blame too many simulposts.
many apologies
[CdM] and I meant the physical manifestation of The Answer (as a group of words) typically only occurs in a particular type (or types) of books -- YES but, note, The Answer can also occur elsewhere.

(I mis-read "it" amongst the flurry of posting; you can have elephants in lots of books, of course, as well as elsewhere.)

woohoo, quintuple post
Of course, my mistake illustrates my difficulty with aspects of this topic all along. Note to self: don't win again.
[flerdle] Hey, I said don't think of an elephant! :)
PS. Is there a typical number of words in this group (or can it vary wildly from a few words to hundreds)?
[Projoy, elephants] AAAARRRRRGGGHHHHH

[Projoy] sorry, that got lost in the flurry of posts and a random backspace. NO. The number of words can vary wildly depending on where The Answer is found and The Answer itself. A random sampling just now gave the number of words as 24, 10, 65, 30 and 352.

Did you perform that random sampling with books that you had to hand?
Can I just say that this AVMA is (a) very good and (ii) very annoying?
[CdM] Did I perform that random sampling with books that I had to hand -- I would answer NO if I was to be evil because I used only one book. YES otherwise.
Is it a subclause (which often appears parenthetically)?
(I know it isn't really, since that appears in all kinds of books, but you have to get this stuff out of your head sometimes)
Wait a second... footnotes?
please excuse my badly mangled second-last sentence up there...
[Projoy] a subclause -- NO :-)
[Projoy] footnotes -- NO.
[Projoy] I have gone through footnotes and other similar ideas in my head, but then I get stuck on the fact that there are also very early instances of the elephant.
Is it some kind of definition or explanation?
[CdM] some kind of definition or explanation -- YES! *audience cheers enthusiastically*
a citation or quotation?
Scrub that, is it a definition in law, i.e. appearing in a contract or piece of legislation?
A dictionary definition?
[Projoy] citation/quotation -- NO, but it can be a very important part of some elephants
[Projoy] a definition in law/contract/legislation -- NO... *audience holds its collective breath*
[Phil] a dictionary definition -- CLOSE ENOUGH!
So, what were the words on the card?
The words on the card are actually "a dictionary entry". You can check the history of the dictionary in the wikipedia. Everything else can be seen above. *audience claps for everyone, especially CdM and Raak, with special cheers for Projoy's perseverence*

*retires*


I suddenly spotted the quotes in It is not "a dictionary" and realised there must be some significance.
Dunno how to follow that epic, but I'll try.

Vegetable

A dictionary?
Blimey, what a struggle!
A drink?
A live plant?
In hindsight, another clue(whether intentional or not)was the answer "not everything in the wikipedia has its own entry" right after the answer to Raak's guess "dictionaries". That was a very good AVMA. Nice one, Flerdle.
[Tuj] Dictionary? Not this time, matey :-)
[Inkspot] A drink? No, although I could do with one.
[Dandalf] A live plant? YES
A tree?
(On the last one I got totally sidetracked by the letter-P-elephant. I assumed there was something special about P.)
Native to a particular country?
Edible?
Typically sold at the local garden centre?
[Projoy] Tree? No
[Dandalf] Edible? YES
[Raak] Typically sold at local garden centre? No
A fungus?
[Projoy] That'd be my fault then :(
A bush?
[Tuj] Fungus? No
[Projoy] Bush? No
A berry?
Coughs politely
A root vegetable?
Does it grow in the wild?
nettle?
[Dandalf] Definitely intentional. [Projoy] many apologies.
A brassica?
flerdle] Do win again - that was one of the best for a long time.
A fruit ?(In the culinary not botanical sense)
Sweet, rather than savoury?
[Tuj, flerdle] No apols necessary. The whole fun of the game is trying to avoid being taken for a ride by your assumptions, and all the questions asked and answers given were completely correct.
Green in colour?
Typically found in the vegetables section of a British supermarket?
[Inkspot] Berry? No
[Rosie] Root vegetable? YES
[Chalky] grow in the wild? No, not as far as I know.
[flerdle] nettle? No
[Irouléguy] Brassica? No
[Dandalf] Fruit? No
[Projoy] Sweet, not savoury? Ummm, no. ( Some hushed comments amongst audience members)
[Tuj] Green? Partly
[Raak] Typically in UK supermarket? No
Carrot?
Yam?
(as opposed to sweet potatoes, which I think are to be found in British supermarkets these days. Aren't they?)
[\tuj] Carrot? No
[CdM] Yam? No (Yes, sweet potatoes are generally to be found in British supermarkets these days)
Chives?
Native to a particular country?
Just ask this one again as it has been over looked
Cassava? which unlike chives is a root vegetable ; -)
[Rosie] Chives? No
[Inkspot] Native to a particular country? (Sorry, didn't spot that earlier) No, as it does not grow in the wild, as far as I know.
[Dandalf] Cassava? No
Taro?
In order to get the last of the obvious ones out of the way.
[CdM] Taro? No - and if that's obvious, I'd hate to see obscure ;-)
Arrowroot?
Jerusalem artichoke?
Don't all cultivated plants have a wild form? Unless only the cultivars have survived and the original wild form is now extinct.
[flerdle] Arrowroot? No
[Dandalf] Jerusalem Artichoke? No - Yes, I presume all cultivated plants do derive from a wild form, but not all specific plants can be found in the wild.
A spice?
[Inkspot] Spice? No
A tuber?
[Inkspot] A tuber? No
A particular plant (rather than a vegetable/plant type)?
[flerdle] A particular plant? YES
Is it grown for human consumption?
[Inkspot] Grown for human consumption? YES - A ripple of applause from the slighly somnolent audience
sugar beet?
[flerdle] Sugar beet? No
Tea?
[Chalky] Tea? No
A swede?
Possibly not called Sven.
Is it grown in the Americas?
Is it typically processed (other than simply by cooking) before being eaten?
[Rosie] Swede? No
[Raak] Grown in the Americas? YES
[CdM] Typically processed before eating (other than cooking)? No, unless you count something like slicing as processing.
Time for a Summary
It is:
A specific, live, edible root vegetable, which is not (to my knowledge) found growing in the wild, and is not native to a particular country. It is grown in the Americas, and is grown for human consumption. It is partly green.

It is not:
A dictionary or a drink. Nor is it a tree, bush, fungus, berry, tuber, fruit, spice, tea, cassava, brassica, nettle, carrot, yam, chives, taro, arrowroot, jerusalem artichoke, spice, sugar beet or swede. It is not typically processed before eating (other than cooking or, say, slicing), and is not typically found in British supermarkets or local garden centres.

Peanuts, or if more "specific" is required Jimmy Carter's peanuts.
[Dandalf] Jimmy Carter's peanuts, or anyone else's for that matter? No
To clarify how specific I meant, the answer is something like "Savoy Cabbage", rather than "Cabbage" (to use a brassica-based example, which we know it isn't).
Is it medicinal?
[Inkspot] Is it medicinal? There are claims to its medicinal properties, so I think I'll have to say YES - Appreciative applause again for Inskspot
Well then ... is it typically consumed primarily for its medicainal properties?
[CdM] Typically consumed for medicinal purposes? No
Jicama?
It seems to me that it has to be more obscure than taro...
[CdM] Jicama? No - there is at least one non-obscure family of root vegetable plants that has not been mentioned at all.
Well, there are bulbs -- garlic, etc. -- but it seems to me that all the non-obscure ones would also be in U.K. supermarkets. So I am very confused...
daikon radish?
[flerdle] daikon radish? No - Audience gets rather agitated at CdM's musings.
Lotus roots?
Vidalia Onion?
[Raak] Lotus roots? No
[CdM] Vidalia Onion? No Disappointed mumblings from audience
Some kind of Allium?
[Néa] Some kind of Allium? YES - Cheers from the audience
Ramps?
[Raak] Ramps? No The audience leans forward in anticipation
Elephant Garlic?
Vidalia?
Is it known by different names in different countries (eg UK/USA)?
[Projoy] Elephant Garlic? YES Tumultuous applause
[Dandalf and flerdle] See above.
What with everyone not thinking about elephants for a day or two, and 30 seconds of Chris Beardshaw at a garlic farm that I saw on TV last week, it seemed the obvious option.
Well, whaddya know? I spend hours on flerdle's one patiently exploring every angle, and about 10 minutes making a random guess on this one, and win...

Anyway, here's an ANIMAL/ABSTRACT...
One word answer?
Human animal?
Does it begin with elephant?
Wildebeest migration?
[Tuj] One word answer, NO
[Dandalf] human? NO
[CdM] elephants involved in any form? NO
[flerdle] Herds of Wildebeeste sweeping majestically...? NO
Mammalian animal?
[Dandalf] Mammal? YES
A feline?
You didn't tee a puddy tat
[Tuj] feline? NO
On further consideration, the best answer to the Human Animal question is YES and NO.
Homo florensis hobbitus?
Fictional?
[Raak] Hobbitses? NO, we hates hobbitses
[Tuj] Fictional? YES
A specific fictional character?
Vampire?
[Tuj] specific fictional character - YES
[Ig] vampire? NO
From a book?
[Tuj] From a book, YEEES *notable lack of applause from audience*
Has it appeared in other media other than books?
[Ink] Other media? YES
Begins with a P?
Different tack ;)
Mr Spock?
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