Right, but that still leaves Raak's point unchallenged, doesn't it? There's nothing to suggest that there's a single cause for that particular pattern of brain activity.

Quite right.

For instance, even the mechanisms by which ADD brain patterns arise in the individual are not certain. There is a high correlation between ADD in parents and in their offspring (a figure of 70% is often quoted) which might suggest a genetic link, but it could equally be due to upbringing: the brain is plastic enough that learning will change its structure (no specific references, I'm afraid - I read this recently but can't remember where), and if much of a child's early development is achieved through mimicry then it's quite possible to imagine that parental ADD behaviours might imprint on the child.

It may well be that the role of genetics in mental development is overstated. There is some work (this book, for instance) which puts forward the argument that:

1. there is a common perception that genetic factors are the largest causative agent in mental illness
2. there is almost no evidence of a correlation between mental illness in children and in their parents (the book linked to states that the strongest correlation is in schizophrenia where there is a 50% correlation; nothing about ADD though)
3. if hypothesis (1) is wrong, then it must be environmental
4. the most pervasive environmental influence on children is their parenting
5. therefore the way you are raised is why your head works the way it does.

So, ADD may be at least as much a social phenomenon as a genetic one, although I also think that any learning which has this effect would have been at such a young age that there is no element of choice to it .

I wonder if I could change the subject. Feel free to ignore me. A co-worker is driving me crazy. Her husband hit her and one of the kids and she got a court order that he stay away. Since then, she is trying to find ways to meet him or to justify meeting him. He is possibly suicidal and she thinks this means she should help him. I point out how these suicidal guys sometimes take the family with them (to death), but she still vacillates. She is obsessed and talks about it constantly: outside on breaks, at my workstation, on the phone, in e-mail. She also obsesses about how she wants sex with him and graphically tells me stuff. Oddly, she listens to my advice, which is quite blunt and includes telling her she is not rational now, but I have a law background, not a psychological one. What do I do to get her to get the help she needs? How do I keep her from putting herself in harm's way? How do I (a gazillion other things)?

Personally, apart from - as you mention - trying to convince her to get some professional assistance I'd stay well out, Tina. If she truly is irrational, heaven knows what affect any well meant advice may have on her. If you do attempt to convince her to get some help I think I'd leave the broken relationship out of any coaxing and simply concentrate on the fact that she is under stress at this time ... Then again, I'm no psychologist!

[cross-posted with Duj] How very difficult for you. Are you in the UK? Can you point her towards the Samaritans or even Relate? In my experience [I've been a voluntary counsellor for some years] you are doing the right thing, in that you are listening. If you are happy to be just a sounding-board, for that is all you are, try not be too disappointed if she fails to heed your warnings. By confiding in you, I'm afraid it looks as though she is seeking justification and perhaps your approval for her future actions, ie. she is likely to meet up with him. I would say, your main problem is that her irrationality appears to have transmuted into outrageously selfish and controlling behaviour [towards you] and you have to guage how much more you can cope with. When she's next in 'listening' mode, you might gently point out that you have a life aswell. But unless she admits she needs professional help, there is little you can do, short of frog-marching her into a doctor's surgery. [Blimey! Do I sound like an agony aunt or what?]

Yes, this is what my sister says as well. I'm in the US and our employer has a counseling plan. My sister says, make excues when she comes to my cubicle. Yes, she is always seeking my approval. She will announce some awful plan, come to my desk, and ask what I think. I say I disapprove, and so far that works. But it's not right really. I'm not the professional. And she is selfish now. There is nothing in her life except her crisis. She lost maybe 20 pounds. She writes me at 3 a.m. and is not sleeping. Thanks for all your help. I just don't want to open the paper and find her dead.

I cannot put myself in your position and therefore cannot really understand, but it sounds like you are in a most awkward position - particularly if you feel obligated to your co-worker. Chalky is undoubtedly correct when she mentions listening but this, long term, could interfere with your own work. In view of the fact that your employer has a counseling service, why don't you have a talk with their staff? Depending on legal contingencies you may have to keep the name of your fellow worker out of any discussion, but at least you may receive 'proper' advice (and by that please do not think that I am denigrating Chalky's input.)

Tina] If you are concerned for her life then she definitely needs professional help. I think you have demonstrated the characteristics of a good listener - but you are not responsible for her situation. She has to be, so it may help to explain this to her in a kindly and assertive way. She may thank you for it.

Thanks to you all for the good advice.

I would echo what Dujon said in his last post - counsellors can be extremely useful even if you aren't the one who is in direct need of their services. It allows one to perspectivise the situation. Obviously the best case scenario is if somehow your colleague manages to sort her situation out; the worst case scenario is if this doesn't happen and you get dragged down with it. I found a counsellor was enormously helpful in staving off the latter when I was in a tricky situation.

To keep the competitive daughter away from MY Daq account - I suggested she sign up herself. She thinks she can knock spots of the rest of us. What a challenge. Any chance of slipping her into our mini-league? [x_sugarbabe_x - 3509835]

Some people have to work you know, others sit around waiting for the server to get back up ... so in between this and that, I've added x_sugarbabe_x.

Well, I'm going to have to waste about £600,000 in my NI-capping. Feh!

Coincedentally, the R4 programme "All In The Mind" had a segment on OCD on the 28th October edition.

... or rather, I should say, about hoarding. Slight misadvertising there. It's the first segment after the intro.

I've nothing much to add to the above (having just caught up with the foregoing) except to wish Tina luck with her situation and to thank those who've talked about such personal issues so openly in the ADD/OCD debate.
My own feelings are that I feel myself to be somewhat... eccentric, particularly socially. Some days I seem to fire on all cylinders and participate on all levels with "the group" (meaning colleagues & students) - cracking jokes and fitting into the ongoing banter as we work, but other days it's like I'm out of sync or speaking a different language.
I don't feel this or any other of my eccentricities are anything like extreme enough to warrant labelling as a disorder - and my feeling has been reinforced by some of the above - it's seldom if ever a real interference in my life. As Projoy suggested, when you hear stories from people who have suffered it humbles your own pretentions to such things!
I've often remarked flippantly that no-one worth knowing is "normal" or 100% sane - and I do believe it's the oddnesses about people that make them interesting day-to-day. Not so much that these traits are odd perhaps as that they're different, new and interesting. They characterise people, and make them unique.

I was also struck by Dunx's comments about difficulty falling asleep if there's audible conversation going on - I find falling asleep very difficult generally, and any sort of distraction is a killer: conversation (especially other people in the house talking, but also just tv) light - especially ambient light through the window, strong wind & rain (although they're kind of nice to listen to...) I've found music helps, although it needs to be the right sort of music - usually but not always without lyrics, often ambient. Dead Can Dance, Brian Eno's ambient classic Music For Airports and William Orbit's Strange Cargo III are all favourites to drop off to. They help shut out the rest.
Hmmm - this has turned into an insomnia post really...
[Celebdaq] I'm flabbergasted that Keanu Reeves is still dropping despite the last Matrix films opening... I was doing so well with Arnie before that too... ho hum.

[bl] "The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well."

Could it be because the last Matrix film is getting bad reviews, rather than good?

[blamelewis] I sympathise greatly. I have always suffered terribly from this. I have been known, on more than one occasion, to be kept awake by my own heartbeat. This is an example of how diagnosis helps, however: now that I know I have OCD, I recognise much of this as silly obsessiveness within my own head. I don't really need conditions to be perfect before I fall asleep, I just think I do, and it's the obsessing about it that actually keeps me awake. And that alone makes things much easier. However, I still cannot sleep through any kind of human-made noise. Those damn humans!

Dunx/Blame/Bread] Sleep is something I adore. I could easily (and and often have) fallen asleep within earshot of conversation - que joke about boring conversations. But to try and fall asleep to music, even Brian Eno, would be impossible for me. I'd be far too wrapped up in thinking about the music to let it lull me. I prefer natural darkness and scilence - as experienced on Shetland - where there is vitually no man-made background light or sound.

[Bob] I've noticed a big difference since moving out of Glasgow - there's no longer a streetlight glaring in my window, and only very occasionally do the sounds of drunken revelry intrude. {Bread] i feel sometimes it's the whirl of thoughts in my head keeping me awake - that and being insufficiently tired - I know part of the problem is my lack of regular exercise also. [JLE - Matrix] Bad press should count as much as good - look at Prince Charles this week!

I fall asleep listening to Radio 4 - I like the noise of voices as I doze off. If there are too many of my thoughts whirling around in my head, (and this is where I start to think I'm odd, after reading everyone else's confessions) I kind of 'take dictation' from the shipping forecast or the news or whatever is broadcast. I hear the words, then see them in my mind's eye on the page, the shape of the letters and the shape and length of the word. It leaves no room for other thoughts and I'm asleep within minutes. I can't listen to music to fall asleep - it has a stuimulant effect, no matter what kind of music it is.

Adult to small child who has just answered the door: "Is your Mummy in?"
Small child: "She's asleep listening to Woman's Hour."

I don't seem to have this trouble. Diet and preoccupation seem to be pretty much the only factors that affects whether I sleep. Thus I must not eat after 7 if I want to fall asleep by 11. And almost nothing wakes me. Someone was stabbed to death on my street once and I slept through the whole incident. Provided I have followed the eating rule, I can fall asleep to any music or stimulus, even violent atonal C20th music. I fully expect to die in a fire someday.

I am fortunate. I fall asleep when I want to, which means when I am tired. I sleep lightly but it never really bothers me if I wake in the night [or if I am woken] because a cup of tea usually sorts me out. I wake when I need to. How dull.

Not really - BUT - come on, Dr.Q+ - you are within sight of the line (or at least in line of site.) You can make it ... deep breath ... push ... push ... only a bit to go ...

I'm afraid that Doris_Newbold and ffiish are about to lose a bit of well earned dosh, Doris though having just made the finishing post.

[Chalky] not at all, sounds blissful! [celebdaq] That's it, I've sold Keanu, his usefulness offscreen clearly not in proportion to his arboresence on screen... it Prince Charles for me! (As the Butler said) (allegedly)

I like sleep but sleep doesn't like me. I can't do it properly at all. And following on another comment, I fully expect to die by being stabbed to death as I set fire to Projoy's house.

At the beginning of the week, when I have classes, I get about 3-5 hours of sleep a night. At the end of the week, I get 10-12. Plus, any night of the week, I might decide not to sleep at all. In this fashion, I am training my body not to expect any particular amount of sleep at any particular time. I'll never be jet-lagged again!
[noise] I can't handle TV or conversation when trying to sleep at all, but I can handle music if it doesn't have lyrics, and is very repetative. For instance, I've fallen asleep underneath tables in the middle of raves a couple of times. Of course, driving all day to get there and then having to unload all the speakers undoubtedly helped.

I used to have terrible trouble sleeping through other people's noise. My lodger used to have music on at night fairly quietly and it used to drive me mad, especially the fact that the bassline was audible more than the rest, to the point where we had a screaming row about it. She couldn't see my point of view and I was incensed that she couldn't see mine. Now that I know I'm obsessive about it I can sleep through it just fine. If it's me making the noise (my music, my radio, etc) I can sleep through practically anything.

FG] I couldn't stand any music at night either. I once shared a room in an International hostel with a guy who had an immense collection of pop music from Ghana. I had to move rooms to stay sane. The ex-roommate then started to make claims that I was racist (notes on the message board - complaints to the hostel management) because I didn't like being kept up till 4.00am every night. In an international setting, this was extremely hurtful.

This may seem funny, but it is really very sad. I someone who suffered from Tourette's syndrome recently. For some bizarre reason, he'd chosen to become a street performer - specialising in children’s entertainment. There must be a reason why he chose such an inappropriate career path.

I met someone

[Bob] Sounds interesting. Tell us more!

Lib] Not much more to tell. I was with my (at that time) 6 year old daughter. This chap was dressed in colourful street hippy type clothes and was earnestly and unsuccessfully trying to attract the attention of people with children outside Shakespeare’s Birthplace (I live in Stratford). I'm not usually keen on this kind of thing, but he seemed so honestly appealing so we stood and watched him juggle. He came over to us and talked to my Daughter. He was very sweet and friendly but when he spoke to me it was obvious he has Tourette's because he would twitch (as if sneezing) and shout a swearword. My partner and I are not uptight about letting my daughter hear swearwords, if she asks, we just tell her what they mean and that they are words it is wrong to use in public because they could cause offence. Same with this guy. It gave me an opportunity to talk to my daughter about the syndrome and how awful it must be to be a sufferer. The juggler, however, was not at all popular - especially with other parents - which was a shame because he really was good with my daughter.

Not too gutted though - made well over 200,000 since dividend payout having not quite reached the 2,000,000 mark and was never going to make it up to the 3,000,000 mark before today. This week will be the real test.

[Bob and anyone else who's interested] There is a form of Tourette's, just as well documented, which manifests it self in strange twitches and 'noises' but NOT swearing. [I suppose it's not surprising that the uncontrolled blaspheming is the symptom that attracts all the attention - and sniggers] I know this because my brother's son had it. He and his wife noticed when my nephew was about 8 years old and within months he was diagnosed by the top specialists in the country. They have spent years keeping abreast of the constantly updated research on the syndrome as well as communicating via support groups, etc with other families who suffer. They were told quite early on that he would 'grow out' of it during puberty. He did. He's now 16 and is a superb county rugby player and is in the England R U Development Squad.

Had a conversation with a friend last night, she mentioned someone she knew who had Tourette's -- his specific symptom was that he'd 'baa' like a sheep all the time...

Bob] You are right of course to say it is very sad and an awful syndrome etc etc. BUT, I am sorry, a juggling kid's entertainer with tourettes. That is comedy genius. Or would be if it were a sketch on Trigger Happy TV and not real life. Are you telling me that you haven't since laughed at the thought of the guy handing a balloon shaped like a donkey to some 6 year old and then saying "BOLLOCKS" really loudly? Tragic syndrome. Hysterically funny image.

Tee-hee - a self-drive rental truck has just driven into our office balcony, gashing a huuuuge hole in its roof!!

I drove one of them last time we shifted. Why me and not the man of the house I can't remember. I was completely paranoid, because of the huge excess to pay if there'd been an accident, and because it was huge compared with our little car. But the bouncy driver's seat was fun.

[flerdle] It'll be because you're sensible and give off an air of confidence and capable-ness. And of course, you could blame Mr flerdle for making you drive if there'd been an accident... ;o)

[penelope] I love how your mind works :-D

St d] In fact that is what happened - except there was no balloon and he said "W@NKER" :o)

If walking past my old primary school is representive, kids know words like bol****s and w**ker anyway. In my day 'bum' was rather naughty.

They taught me to spell in those days as well.

Bob] And you have laughed since in teling this story ? I am tempted to turn into a street clown and fake the tourettes.

not that i am particularly bored today or anything, but I just found a googlewhack, and they wont let me post it - I assume because it is deemed rude. Anyway I willshare it here as it is a genuine whack! FELLATED MOHICANS.

St d] Come to think of it - he said that too...

[st d] Are you sure that's a googlewhack? If so I'm really rather surprised.

Oooh! It is, I just checked..

[flerdle] You have a longer drive this time. And remember to deflate the tires when you reach the desert.

I was going to compose an extraordinarily witty comment to post somewhere on the site. However, I thought that this was even more funny (courtesy of my I.S.P.):

Service Disruption Start: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 at 5:53AM EDST
Last Updated: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 at 12:04PM EDST
Scheduled Service Disruption: No
Who is affected: Some customers
Impact: We are currently having problems with ADSL. This is affecting customers in New South Wales. Some customers will experience no dataflow. Technicians are treating this issue as a priority and are working on the problem.

Right, I'm off to find a pub or a bottle or something - it beats crying. Any takers?

Not clear? Probably not.

I have just spent considerable amounts of time attempting to post/read/hack a number of sites. I'm giving up and, hopefully, will see you all tomorrow.

Last night, bored as hell with the quality of discussion in a chatroom, I began posting "Fascinating Facts", all culled from the lies game on this very server. After I posted Ibid's "Hammerhead sharks have to clean their teeth regularly, due to the large quantities of salted peanuts they eat." one of my duller interlocutors asked "where do they get the peanuts", allowing me to take great pleasure in replying "Do I look like a marine biologist?"

Totally irrelevant I know, but just a small example of how the MC community brings happiness into the world in small unexpected ways. :)

I remember meeting you once in the Head of Steam many moons ago, on a Tuesday if I recall correctly. From that dim recollection, and also from my having met more than a couple of Marine Biologists in my time, I can only conclude that from a certain angle, and in the right light, you actually DO look like a Marine Biologist. But that is by the by - where DO the sharks get the peanuts from ?

You know, sometimes I wish I actually were a marine biologist. Particularly today, with the office feeling especially horrible.

Indeed. How nice to be sitting on a beach somewhere far flung with a torch and a clipboard and a ruler, waiting for a load of turtles to turn up.

[Projoy] Why are people in chatrooms so stupid? The number of times I've tried to talk about something interesting or intelligent, only to get in reply "wot". I appreciate that my kind of interesting conversation may not be everyone's, or indeed anyone's, but what kind of idiot just types "wot"? The same kind that spells "great" with an 8, I suppose. [Shuffles off in carpet slippers muttering about the war.]

[Bready] Where do you chat? I'll gladly gatecrash and help you to liven things up a bit. Likewise [Projoy] there's some interesting Duologues to be made there, I'm sure. I was a frequenter of MSN chatrooms, where I would resort to lobbing virtual cushions about the room to initiate some reaction. And if nobody responded to a cushion, I'd try throwing virtual knives.

I have to confess - when I first became internetted a few years ago, my first port of call was an MSN chatroom. I plunged myself nervously into the mêlée, learned all the patter, sussed out the dynamics, etc. Anyway, after a couple of unsatisfactory weeks I decided it wasn't for me and became far more attracted to the community message board attached to the room, where I encountered some like-minded souls. Anyway, to cut a long [but rather interesting] story short, I now have two very close friends whom I see on a regular basis as a result of that experience. So, although I wouldn't be seen dead in a chatroom now [they terrify me], I can't exactly decry those who get something out of the experience.
Besides, if I manage to get any time to myself late evening, I would rather bimble around the Crescent sites. Talking of which, does anyone frequent the MCiOS chat server? If I knew that some friendly faces were in there, I might make an exception.

As far as I can see we never get around to creating enough activity in our own chatroom at MCiOS. We should maybe have a particular time in the week (like Sunday night at 8 or whatever) for VirtualPilgs, then the place would really buzz.

Oh, and to leap back to the neurology discussions, is it meaningful for a person to maintain "I'm pretty ADD today" (as I have just done to a colleague. I certainly am finding it hard to focus on anything for longer than 20 seconds today, which is not always a problem.

Why do I invariably leave off the closing parenthesis or comma from a subclause, and why do I often forget to put a question mark at the end of a question? Somebody must know. I can't be the only one.

[Projoy] Damn fine idea, although I'm part of a pub quiz team and we compete on Sunday nights, so I can't make it until about 11pm. Also I'm likely to be a bit squiffy.

Noting your simulpost PJ - it's because you're having an BAD ADD day

I had the answer to your questions, then I am afraid I got distracted by a tiny jam tart.

Mmm. Jam tart.

[Chalky] I'm usually in there while I'm at work (usually 12:30-21:30 GMT), but often not at my desk when anyone happens to show up. :(