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AVMA Take 2
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Yes, it's another round of that classic guessing game - Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, Abstract [or any combination thereof]. This effort - '03/'04 should address any queries, but then again, may just serve to confuse and baffle which some might say is the point of the game. Patience, integrity and a decent search engine may be useful ....
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A ram-jet?
Let's see if I can re-capture your imaginations...

Abstract, with animal, vegetable and mineral connections,

This is NOT *deep breath*: A saying or phrase, fictitious, photosynthesis, connected to a specific sex or nation, involving dams, a visible phenomenon, artistic, related to ozone, anything to do with guy fawkes, an industrial process, smelting, firing a steam engine, involving salt water, rocket science, involving lead, electrolysis, the propulsion of manned spacecraft, fireworks, projectile weaponry, fuel cells, any type of balloon or a parachute jump.

However, it IS: A human concept, sort-of connected to science, involving metal, related to oxygen and heat produced by one reaction, including (but not exclusively) internal combustion, pertaining to a specific group of humans (at least one of which has artistic connections), resulting in the aforementioned metals being in contact with water, involving an oxygen-producing reaction which does not provide propulsion (and this reaction has a metal reaction vessel and does involve metals, which may be in group III of the periodic table) and importantly, this pertains to a propelled means of transport, more specifically an aeroplane.

Right, got all that? Good., because now you can have a clue:
Firstly, the cause of the second reaction (which is the main one in this case) is present in every airline safety demonstration. Secondly, there is only one specific airline and aircraft involved.
Blimey - OK, someone performing an electrolysis experiment onboard a BA Boeing 737, causing a fire to break out, the oxygen masks to drop and the 'plane to crash on the sea (don't worry, everyone got out fine)?
Well, strike a light!
*audience sits up, expectantly*
[Knobbly] You are actually quite close. this is a plane crash, however no electrolysis and not into the sea. Sadly no-one got out fine, or at all. I am looking for the name by which the plane crash is referred to. Oh, and no 737. There was fire, and oxygen masks did not drop, but the oxygen generator (for the masks) is the 'other' reaction.
Ah, ValuJet Flight 592
*Audience goes wild*
YES! I hand over this slightly charred baton.
Doh
Didn't think of the fact that I'd have to think of one...
I would like a go, though. It's very quiet here over the weekend, so I'll think of one before the end of tomorrow *subsides into thoughtful silence*
Ok, this is hopefully not a 4 week one...
Animal
Go!
Human?
[Raak] No.
A single individual?
[Raak] Yes.
Recently deceased?
Female?
Knut?
European?
In captivity?
Mammal?
Forget my last question - I hadn't read back carefully enough.
So much for my AVMA debut
[Dujon]Yes.
[GL] No.
[irach] Yes.
[INJ,CdM,INJ]Moot.
*Sporadic audience applause for irach for being too clever*
Actually, when I thought of it it wasn't very easy as he hadn't been news for years. How was I to know he'd go and die and make the papers again?
Thanks, Knobbly, but someone else will need to start the next one in my place. I am going to be away at a conference the next five days, and may not be able to log into mc5 as frequently as would be necessary to keep the game progressing.
I think Knobbly should have another go!
I wonder whether the choice of Knut was a massive coincidence, or whether Knobbly actually saw/heard some reference to Knut's death without being consciously aware of the fact.
To be honest, I also think knobbly should have another go, although I will admit that my original categorising of my one was flawed, but I was having trouble fitting it successfully into one main box.
Well, ok. This may not be very difficult, but it probably won't be in the news tomorrow.
This is an Animal. Let the guessing commence.
Human?
[INJ] No.
4 legs?
[Software]Yes, one in each corner.
A single individual?
[GL] An individual? No. Although there's only one in the picture in my head it could be any of them.
A deer of some kind?
Normally regarded as edible by humans?
Mammal?
Found wild in the UK?
[Dujon] Deer me, no.
[Rosie] Not normally considered edible.
[INJ] Mammal? Yes. *small ripple of applause*
[Raak] In UK? No.
A bear of any sort?
[Raak] No. I cant bear the tension. Oh dear. I apologise profusely and will hence just answer simply.
Bigger than a toaster?
[Raak]Larger than a toaster? Yes.
Kept as a pet? (By normal people)
[Rosie] No.
Extant?
Hoofed?
A Shetland Pony?
Thelwell cartoons come to mind.
[Raak] Extant - NO. Shouldn't be long now. *More sustained applause*
[INJ] Hooves, yes.
[Software] Not a pony.
An extinct species of horse?
A woolly Mammoth?
[Raak] Not a horse. Although distantly related I think there are closer extant relatives.
[FGZ] No, not a woolly mammoth.
Of the genus Bos, like an aurochs or wisent?
[irach] Bos? No.
Pyrenean Ibex ?
A litoptern?
[irach] Ibex? No
[Raak]Litoptern - No
An extinct camel or llama relative?
A brontothere?
[irach] Not a camelid.
[Raak]Nor a member of the Brontotheriidae, neither.
Rhinoceros-like?
[irach] Well, as you asked a subjective question I was going to say no, because I don't think it is; but I asked an impartial observer and they said it was, so - Rhinoceros-like? YES. *applause*
Stegosaurus?
An Irish Elk?
Unicorn?
[Rosie, INJ, Software] Thrice no.
A dinosaur of some kind?
Died out in the last hundred thousand years?
[GL, Rosie] Hoofed mammal!
[INJ] Less than 0.1 Mya? NO
Coelodonta or Stephanorhinus?
split hooves?
According to wikipedia we're down to a choice of about 220 possibles now ;-)
[FGZ] Neither of them.
[INJ] Is it a member of the order Artiodactyla? - No.
Does it have an ordinary English name?
Unlike "liptotern", "brontothere", or "madeupopodeaceae".
[Raak] It does not, to my knowledge, have a common name. Maybe we can give it one once it has been guessed.
Borissiakia?
Just cos I like the name
Just to confirm - you have answered that this is hoofed and does not have split hooves - I have to assume that means it has a single hoof like a horse, not claws or any other multi-part foot like a deer or elephant.
I notice that I automatically write 'hoofed', but 'hooves' - I'll have to follow that up, though I expect both will be acceptable.
[INJ] Not Borissiakia.
[INJ again] Yes, it does; although I'm getting a bit lost in hoof types. For one thing a deer is a hoofed mammal.
Of the family Brontotheriidae?
[FGZ] No, it still isn't.
Of the family Artiodactyls?
Does it have the letter string 'hipp' in its name?
(re deer: Yes, but a deer, like a cow, has split hooves.)
If you could still eat one, would it be kosher?
I don't think the answer will be particularly edifying, I just want to see you try to work it out :)
[GL] Artiodactyla? NO. Keep going, we're almost out of incorrect orders...
[INJ] No, the syllable 'hipp' appears nowhere in the binomial name, nor in the rest of its taxonomic classification.
[Jim] No, because it doesn't have cloven hooves (see above). That wasn't too complicated.
Of the order Perissodactyla?
[INJ] YES. Indeed an odd-toed ungulate.
One of the "rhino-like" amynodonts such as Gigantamynodon, Metamynodon , or Cadurcodon ?
[irach] Not Amynodontidae.
And when I searched for it the Popular Search Engine tried to change it to 'Amy - no, don't!' (Punctuation mine, three words its.)
*wishes you lot would speak English*
Are you all googling like crazy in order to ask questions with words that no-one uses in daily parlance? Or are you actually *experts* in this field? Whatever - clearly this game is not for me.
(Spangle) I agree. For some time this game has irritated the poo out of me and although I may contribute early on I usually drop out if it becomes clear the answer is some arcane piece of knowledge that very few people have. If it's not at the fingertips of a well-educated person (and all of us are that) then it's inappropriate. In the '50's this game was played live and the answers were always things that anyone would know of. This gives much scope for ingenuity without getting anorakky.
In the past I have threatened to retaliate (in the unlikely event that I would ever win) with a Steam Engine. Just a Steam Engine? Dear me, no - a big one. A Big Steam Engine? Come on - be serious, this one is Quite Big but not Very Big. So it's a 4-6-0, then? Yes. Not just any old 4-6-0; there were loads of them, but a Great Western 4-6-0. A Great Western 4-6-0, then? Oh, get a grip; there were several different classes. This one is a "Hall Class". OK, a Great Western "Hall Class" 4-6-0, then? Yes. Now guess which one. It's no. 7921,
Hidden text which is my current desktop, having taken a picture of it myself in 1959
, and one of 330.
Isn't that clever? This game is for 8 - 12 year olds and a complete f****** timewaster.
A quagga?
[Spangle, Rosie if they look in here again] I chose what I thought was a moderately well known extinct mammal after my living mammal was guessed in less than a day. It does say in the instructions that a search engine is useful, but I notice that further up the page, the items are a lot more general knowledge. Maybe a return to things most people have heard of wouldn't be a bad idea.
[Raak] Not a quagga.
I am sorry, I think I may have started this with my more specific topic. It happened to be an old episode of air crash investigation which I was watching at the time.
[spangle, knobbly, FGZ*] This is not a new debate. Rosie has voiced his views on this numerous times, and I don't think it's worth rehashing. But one thought did occur to me, which is that the existence of google might lead us to approach the guessing completely differently. In other words, even if the answer is not really obscure (as perhaps this one isn't; we don't know yet), we might approach it in obscure ways.
[CdM] Ah well, I'm a new player. Relatively. To this game anyway.
Volunteers to return us to our regularly scheduled game?
The reason I object to some of the extreme arcane subjects is that it denies the players the opportunity for general intelligence, which I take to be the ability to put two and two together and see connections, quite independent of any database. Digging around in Google may suit some but it doesn't exactly lift the spirits.
[Rosie] Yes, we know. You are given to saying so pretty much every few weeks.
A type of tapir?
[irach] No type of tapir.
A Chalicothere?
On the grounds that I know I've come across that one.
[INJ]Chalicothere? No.
Free advice - maybe ask another question instead of guess?
I give up
Frankly, although I've quite enjoyed some of the digging, I can't spare the effort to do more. I also have a problem in that I believe your answers have said that this animal has a single hoof (hoofed , not split). My sources state specifically that the only animals with a single hoof are related to horses, but you have said that is not the case.
Raak asked if it was an extinct species of horse. I said it wasn't an extinct species of horse, but distantly related, i.e. it belongs in the order Perissodactyl, like horses do.
There is a very important piece of identifying information that no-one has really tried to ascertain.
[All who haven't drifted off] Here is a roundup of all helpful facts so far known:
A non-human, extinct, quadrupedal mammal, of the order Perissodactyla (odd-toed ungulates). Died out more than 100,000 years ago, rhinoceros-like and larger than a toaster.
With two horn like protuberances?
[irach] Not with two horns.
Baluchitherium?
You said that you had a particular exemplar in mind. Would it help us to try to find out which one? (e.g., skeleton in a museum, illustration in a book...)
Has this creature evre been featured in a film?
[Projoy] YES Baluchitherium.
A prehistoric relative of the rhinoceros, featured in an episode of Walking With Beasts and the largest mammal ever to have existed. I would also have accepted Paraceratherium or Indricotherium. And I honestly thought it was fairly well known.
Is that the answer?
Is this a question?
[Spangle] Yes that is the answer.
Should I have added *Audience go wild, not untinged with relief* for avoidance of doubt?
[GL] Is this a rhetorical question?
Come to think of it, there's a talking baluchitherium in Brian Aldiss' short story "Old Hundreth".
It will not suprise onlookers to know that that was a triumph for Google rather than my prior general knowledge, but I for one am glad to know it now. Getting it to stick in memory will be the challenge...

The next is MINERAL (there might be odd bits of the other two in there, I'm not sure).
A structure?
Unique?
Primarily metal?
manufactured?
A flying start...
[Rosie] A Structure? STRICTLY, YES
[CdM] Unique? YES
[INJ] Primarily metal? YES
[Software] Manufactured? YES
Used in transportation?
Do people go inside it?
Artistic connections?
Found inside Earth's atmosphere?
Gathering speed...
[irach] Transportation? YES *applause*
[Knobbly] People inside? YES
[INJ] Artistic? NOT REALLY
[GL] Earthly? YES
Airborne?
Vickers VC-10 aircraft?
Currently in use?
The London Eye?
Making progress...
[Raak] Airy? NO
[irach] Holy plane? NO
[Rosie] In use? YES [Dujon] Sauron on the South Bank? NO
Great Western 'Hall Class' 4-6-0 number 7921?
Related to te Railways?
[FGZstar] Don't be silly, that's not still in use, it was scrapped in 1963.
[FGZ*] GWHC4607921? NO
[GL] Rail-ated? YES! *applause*
The Chunnel train?
[irach] Pancras to Paris? NON
Is it a 'named' engine or train?
[Duj] Named engine or train? YES
Is it a preserved steam locomotive?
The Flying Scotsman?
Puffing Billy?
[Rosie] A righted steamer? YES
[Raak] The Airborne Jock? NO
[Spangle] Drug-addled William? NO
Stephenson's Rocket?
Is it likely that I am the only Morniverser who has heard of this machine?
I don't know quite why I'm going along with this monumental piss-take. Must be the nice weather.
Union of South Africa?
Is it British?
[Spangle] Stockton to Darlington Express? NO
[Rosie] Something only you'd know? NO (I've heard of it too).
[FGZstar] Union of South Africa? NO *applause*
[GL] British? YES
Sir Nigel Gresley?
Chifferty-chafferty chifferty-chafferty
Does (or did) this locomotive hold the record (steam engines) for rapidity?
Mallard?
(Pursuing the Gresley link (thank you Wikipedia) and going with an engine that I had also heard of.)
[CdM] Not the Mallard, as that is no longer operational
[Dujon] Speed record? YES, this locomotive holds the postwar steam speed record, which means that Rosie, like The Answer, is entirely on track with...
[Rosie] LNER Class A4 4498 Sir Nigel Gresley? YES! *appreciative whistles*.
Please take this single-tracked-section token.
(I probably should have awarded a couple of claps for Flying Scotsman since the other still-operational Class A4, LNER Class A4 4464 Bittern, used to pull that train).
I hate three-cylinder engines; they don't puff properly.
Right; nothing whatsoever to do with railways in any way, shape or form, nevertheless MINERAL
Metallic?
Made of stone/rock?
Found on Earth?
(irach) Metallic? Almost entirely not.
(INJ) Stone or rock? YES, very largely.
(Gusset Login) Found on Earth? YES.
A rock formation?
(Knobbly) - Not a rock formation.
[Rosie] Manufactured or processed in some way?
(Projoy) Manufactured or processed? - YES. *some mild applause*
Related to Transport?
FGZstar - Train and boats and planes - alas, NO
A man-made wall?
(irach) - NO, not a wall.
Unique?
A building?
Artistic connections?
A Welsh slag heap?
;0)
A structure?
(CdM) - Unique? - By no means
(INJ) - Aberfan? Nothing so sad
(Projoy) - A structure? - YES.
Bigger than a washing machine?
You answered Software instead of me
(INJ) - Whoops, sorry about that - a bit early in the "morning". NO artistic connections.
Bigger than a washing machine? NO, at least in two out of three dimensions.
(Raak) A building? NO (though a structure).
Is it hollow?
A monument?
A utilitarian object?
(Projoy) Hollow? NO (very probably).
(Raak) A monument? NO. *a few laughs and a little quickly stifled applause*
(irach) - A utilitarian object? YES, very much so.
Found outdoors rather than indoors?
A Welsh slag heap?
trying again
(Softers) I replied to INJ (qv) instead of to you. Not a slag heap of any nationality.
(irach) Outdoors? YES. *some applause*
Is there just one of this?
(Pj) Unique? NO, not at all. (see reply to CdM)
Do humans typically need to touch this object with their hands and/or feet in the course of its normal use?
An electricity pylon?
Is it typically a part of something bigger?
(irach) - Need to touch the object? NO, but they probably would anyway.
(FGZstar) - An electricity pylon? NO.
(Projoy) - Part of something bigger? - NO, not in a physical sense.
Do all of its type have a specific geometric shape?
Would a typical morniverser own one?
A lighting fixture?
A dry stone wall?
Good to 'see' you in the chair, Rosie ;-)
You say it's a "structure", but does that mean it is made up of separate stone parts?
(irach) - All the same shape? YES, probably; maybe a few exceptions.
(CdM) - Ownership by typical morniverser? Good heavens, NO - we don't nick things, do we?
(Raak) - Lamp-post etc? NO.
(Chalky) - Dry-stone wall? Alas, NO.
Hidden textThey're very kind to the oldies here.

(Projoy) - Built up from stone blocks? - YES. *applause*
Found on/along a roadway?
Is it taller than a washing machine?
A pyramid?
(irach) - On a road? - Almost entirely NO, but theoretically could be at the side of one.
(Projoy) - Taller than a washing machine? - YES, but only a little.
(Softers) Square geezer? NO, nor pyramidal geometrically.
A triangulation pillar?
YESSS! Projoy wins. The actual "words on the card" were Trig Point, but that's the same thing. *Returns the single-line token*. Carry on.
There used to be a couple just down the road from my house where I grew up. OK, that's enough mineral, here's an ABSTRACT, with strong ANIMAL connections
Is the animal connection human?
[irach] Animal connection human? Only at the less significant end.
Animal instinct?
Husbandry?
Worth a punt from 75 yds.
Wayne Rooney?
Does it relate to an individual animal?
There was a trig point in the central strip of a stretch of dual carriageway in Leeds. (Scott Hall Road - may have been displaced by the guided bus route)
[irach] Instinct? NO
[Dujon] Spudhead? NO
[INJ] Individual animal? As in unique or an individual type? NO, if the former.
[Rosie] Husbandry? NO
Does this result in a specific action on the part of the animal?
Is this a song?
Human concept?
[Rosie] Action on the part of the animal? *some laughter* NOT EXACTLY
[Chalky] A song? NO
[Software] Human concept? YES
Related to a work of fiction?
[INJ] Fiction-work-related? NO, not particularly. Might be mentioned in a few.
A disease largely confined to animals?
Is this a phrase (e.g. "he had the strength of a lion")?
[Rosie] Disease? NO
[Dujon] A phrase? YES! *applause*
A pig's ear?
Is the animal domesticated?
A pig in a poke?
Dead as the dodo?
[Software] Porcine Aural Apparatus? NO
[CdM] Domesticated? NO
[irach] Hog in a holdall? NO
[Rosie] Dodo? NO.
Is it a proverb?
Is the referenced animal larger than a badger?
[FGZstar] Proverb? NO
[INJ] >Badger? NO
Is the animal in the phrase a rodent? As in "I smell a rat"?
[irach] Rodent? NO
Is the animal a mammal?
[irach] A mammal? NO
Is the animal dangerous?
Does the animal drink like a fish?
(Guessing) A snake in the grass?
A bird, such as one in the hand or two in the bush?
Playing possum?
[CdM] Dangerous? *laughter* NO
[Gusset Login] Drinking like a fish? NO *applause*
[Dujon] Grass Snake? NO
[irach] Birdies? NO
[Rosie] Marsupial? NO
Memory like a goldfish?
Or have I already asked that?
"Sleeping with the fishes"?
The one that got away?
Fishing for answers...
[INJ] What was that you said seven seconds ago? NO
[irach] Unfortunate Mafioso? NO
[Knobbly] Escapee? NO
Is a particular kind of fish named on the card?
[CdM] Particular fish? NO
Something's fishy here
[irach] Not sure if that's a question, but NO, that's not the phrase on the card.
"A Fish called Wanda"?
Always a bigger fish?
Many more fish in the sea?
A fish out of water?
Who knew there was so much to say about fish?
[irach] Cleese and Curtis? NO
[FGZstarfish] Bigger fish? NO
[Knobbly] A Fish in Sea? NO
[GL] Landed and Gasping? NO
A big fish in small pond?
Does the word 'fish' appear on the card?
[FGZstar] Parish Council Chair? NO
[Dujon] Does the word "fish" appear on the card? I thought you'd never ask... YES.
Fish face?
Begins with P(iscine)?
Fish for compliments?
Now , what fish is it that doesn't drink like a fish, I wonder.
[Software] Fish face? How dare you? Oh, I mean, NO.
[CdM] Pfish? NO
[INJ] Am I answering these questions OK, cos I do worry? (NO)
*the audience applaud INJ's other remark*
Kettle of fish?
Is there a culinary connection?
[irach] Kettle? NO
[INJ] Food? NO, not really.
Shooting fish in a barrel?
[irach] Barrel? NO, but I imagine we'll be scraping the bottom soon...
A Flying fish?
Does the referenced fish have to be dead?
[FGZstar] Flying fish? NO
[INJ] Dead fish? I think most people on hearing this expression would assume a dead fish, so YES. *applause*
(Strictly, its live/dead status isn't actually referenced, so it doesn't have to be)
A slap around the face with a wet fish?
Even better!
[Software] The Answer is, indeed, A slap in the face with a wet fish. Please accept this wet fish as your reward.
D*mn You, Software, you bounder!
I've just logged on with the intention of guessing that exact phrase.
[INJ] Yes, but it could be worse.
What a surprise, such a slippery baton!

Right, this one is Abstract with Animal, Vegetable and Mineral connections.

The anarcho-syndicalist world view?
Making a welcome(?) return.
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