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AVMA Take 2
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Yes, it's another round of that classic guessing game - Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, Abstract [or any combination thereof]. This effort - '03/'04 should address any queries, but then again, may just serve to confuse and baffle which some might say is the point of the game. Patience, integrity and a decent search engine may be useful ....
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[FGZstar] Foody? NO (there is an edible case of this, but it it's not the one a person would first think of)
Is this a syndrome or medical condition?
[Spangle] Medical? NO.
The toaster dimensional question
[INJ] Typically smaller than a toaster by volume, and usually by dimension.
Is it used in the kitchen?
[Raak] Kitchen? NO (the only exception being the edible case, I guess).
Clue or summary required?
Is it tangible?
[FGZstar] Most cases of this are tangible, fewer are abstract.

Here's a roundup and a bit of extra info: This is something that can be vegetable (usually wood) or mineral (usually metal) or abstract. Two cases of this that I can think of have a music connection. Two different cases that I can think of are edible. There is one case, a different one again, where this might be thought of as an award. In that case, and another one again, it acts as a symbol. Nearly all non-abstract cases of this that I can think of are smaller than a toaster.

As you can see, different cases of this have different properties. Feel free to pick on a specific case to help you unfold the whole answer.
Does it have any moving parts?
This feels like we are having a category problem and once someone asks the right question it will go quite quickly - but I'm stuck.
As I say, maybe focus on one case rather than all.
[INJ] Moving Parts? NO - I can't think of a case of this that has moving parts! Hooray for straight answers. :)
Are there less than three words on the card?
[FGZstar] Fewer than 3 words? YES.
(PS. the edible cases are vegetable but not wooden!)
A one word answer?
Do you have a (physical) one of these?
[FGZstar] One word? YES, plus the indefinite article
[INJ] Do I have one? *checks* Hm. Apparently not any more. Wonder where it went?
Does one wear this?
Is it some form of protection?
[Spangle] Worn? NO
[INJ] Protection? NEARLY NO. One case of this is arguably for protection.
A charm?
[Charm] NO.
Is there writing on it?
Does an individual viewpoint contribute to the definition?
In other words could 2 different people look at the same object and disagree as to whether it was one of these?
I'm trying to think how I can follow your exhortation to focus on one case, I can't actually identify one case well enough to ask about it!
Is this a form of label or tag?
A container of some sort?
[Raak] Is there writing on it? NO.
[INJ] Could two people disagree? PROBABLY NOT, which is not to say that there aren't alternative words for this.
Well, you could ask me about the metal one, for instance, or the abstract one, or one of the wooden ones.
[Spangle] A label or tag? NO * a sprinkle of applause from a few audients*
[INJ] Container? NO
Does it serve a symbolic function?
[Raak] A Load of Symbolics? As above, two cases of this that I can think of have a symbolic function.
A grade?
Such as a grade of wood, gradings of fruit and vegetables, geades in class and grades of metal?
You Tak The Low Road
[FGZstar] A grade? NO.
A chip?
Please tell me if I'm completely up the wrong tree.
[FGZstar] An inspired guess, but NO (but you're by no means up the wrong tree).
Could it be used to hold information?
[FGZstar] Holds information? NO. * a pedantic throat clearing from one audience member, who is thinking of one specific case *
Following from FGZ*, is this a set of completely disparate things that happen to be referred to be the same word?
Are these for sale on Amazon?
[CdM] Disparate Things? YES *applause*, altho they do share a couple more properties than just the name.
[Raak] *checks* YES, you can buy at at least two types of this on Amazon.
Would one use this in the workplace?
Are they sometimes made of plastic?
[Spangle] YES and NO, depending. You could probably argue it either way for quite a few cases. Unlikely to help!
[Raak] Sometimes plastic? YEEES. I did google an example up of a plastic one, but certainly wouldn't have known that if I hadn't.
Can you find these in hardware stores?
[Raak] Hardware? I don't recall seeing one in a hardware store. Then again, I can't say I frequent hardware stores.
The wooden one - solid wood or a by-product of wood?
[Spangle] I'll pick one of the wooden ones, for which the answer is YES, solid wood.
Do people who have one usually make it themselves?
[Raak] Self-made? NO.
A wedge?
[FGzstar] A wedge? NO, but you are absolutely at the right level of generality.
A plinth?
This message will self-destruct in 36 hours
[Raak] Some day my...? NO, but again, the right level of generality

I'm going to be without net access for a week as of late Thurs evening, so perhaps I can do a summary + hints in case it jogs your thoughts. We are looking for the one-word name for a set of mainly functional objects, (at the same level of generality as "chip" or "wedge"). They can be metal or wood. There are a couple other "vegetable" types which are not wood. All of these are typically smaller than a toaster by volume. There is an abstract type too. You could put The Answer into an Amazon search and be offered a couple of types of this. One of the wooden types of this is all wood and has a musical connection. The metal type has a symbolic function.
Does the word begin with a vowel?
... apart from the indefinite article, naturally
[Spangle] Vowelish? NO.
A figurehead?
[Raak] Figurehead? NO. Think smaller.
(I have found fibreglass and plastic examples of this on further research)
A bookend?
WRT the wooden/musical one - do you hit it?
A Wh
A Whistle?
You're totally gonna kick yourselves and everything.
[Raak] And the murderer was...? NO
[INJ] Do you hit it? NO
[FGZstar] Just purse your lips? NO
A pipe?
[FGZstar] A pipe? NO *applause*
Is this a model or miniature of something?
Is it basically cylindrical in shape?
A drum?
Do most people have one of these?
[Spangle] Model/miniature? NO
[INJ] Basically cylindrical? YES *applause*, most cases are cylindrical, if you're not too Platonic about it.
[FGZstar] A drum? NO
[Raak] Do most people have one? NO.
A recorder? or a flute?
[FGZstar] Recorder? Flute? NO (not a musical instrument per se, in fact).

I realise this is probably a slightly annoying one (altho you will kick yourselves) but can I just say how gratified I am by the ingenuity of the guesses? Thank you.
A stick?
[FGZstar] Stick? OF SORTS! *tumultuous applause, and stirrings of anticipation for the endgame*
A crutch?
A drumstick?
[INJ] Item best used in pairs? NO
[FGZstar] Drumstick? NO (there's no animal type of this)

Well, about five more hours before I might have to hand this over.
Does the letter string 'stick' appear on the card?
Well, the only wooden, sticky, musical things that aren't instruments that I can think of are a baton (disqualified because they come in animal types and aren't obviously abstract) and the pole that some C18 & 19 conductors would use to beat time.
Oh and I'm quite glad my previous guess was wrong, now I start to think of the 'edible' case.
[INJ] In that case, as we might disagree on the definition and you might have guessed it otherwise, I think it only fair to hand over the BATON to you, hoping to be enlightened about the animal case! The cases of which I was thinking are the wooden (or sometimes, apparently, fibreglass) conductor's baton, the military baton, the metal relay baton, the well-known small loaf, carrot batons and police batons, plus of course the abstract Baton Sinister from heraldry. Challenging subject, but I enjoyed attempting something a bit more hard to get hold of, as it were. Apols to anyone else who had foregone that guess on non-animal grounds, too.
They make them in bone and ivory
Anyway, moving on - Let's have a nice simple ANIMAL
An amoeba?
They don't come much simpler than that.
A duck-billed platypus?
[Raak] amoebic? - NO (not quite that simple)
[irach] monotremic? - NO (but I had been thinking about that, so you were close to the quickest ever win)
Reptilian?
[ImNotJohn] Great minds think alike; what more can I say?
Extinct?
Human?
[Raak] Gone forever - NO *some audience reaction*
[GL] Human? - NO
Coelacanth?
[jim] Latimeria chalumnae? - NO
Actually, I think I set that a few years ago.
Mammal?
[Software] Mammalian? - NO
*coughs and gestures towards irach's last question*
Endangered?
Ah yes, sorry
[irach] Reptilian? - YES
[Raak] Endangered? - YES *applause*
the audience were rather helpful earlier on, but they're a fair-minded lot
Software is hereby awarded one free guess.
A sea turtle?
Said this was going to be simple
[FGZstar] Chelonioidiac? - NO *further applause*
A tuatara?
[Raak] Tuatara? - Happy to admit I had to look that one up, from which I assume you can guess that the answer is NO
A Komodo Dragon?
[irach] Varanidaeic? - NO
Did Darwin likely see them during his voyages?
Would one fit in a toaster (perhaps coiled up)?
[irach] Darwinian? - YES! - (to all intents and purposes)*applause*
[Raak] Pop-uppable? - NO *some audience laughter*
Galápagos giant tortoise (Chelonoidis nigra), which ironically is genus Chelonoidis, but not in Family Chelonidae?
Nearly there
[irach] Galapagos Giant Tortoise? - YES - but curiously enough, none of those words are on the card (*the audience are shuffling towards the exit*)
"Harriet of Australia Zoo" fame?
[irach] Hattie? - Sorry, never heard of her, so NO
Lonesome George?
There, that wasn't so hard
We have a winner! The words on the card are: 'Lonesome George': probably the last Pinta Island giant tortoise.
I'll send him over with the baton.
This is gonna be a tricky one
Abstract, with Animal connections.
Sorry, forgot to include Mineral connections also
A saying or phrase?
[irach] adage? NO
Connected with a work of fiction?
Fictitious? NO
A human concept?
A human concept? Erm, not sure how to answer this one. The animal connection is human, and so I would say YES.
Connected to science?
Is the mineral connection metal?
[CdM] Science-y? There is definitely a major connection, but you need to look further than just the thought of science.
[INJ] Metallic? YES, but not exclusively

LOOK AT THIS! Erm.. okay, minor f*** up, realised that vegetable also comes into this. To make up for this, I shall give you a clue. This whole thing is related to heat and oxygen produced by one reaction.
Internal Combuxtion?
That is combustion...
Photosynthesis?
Combustion? YES, but this is not the only rection involved, and there is another, seperate reaction
Photosynthesis? NO
You need to back up a bit, as my clue was maybe a bit too close up for now. It will help you when you are closer to the answer.
Is the (human) animal a specific human?
Not a specific human, but a specific group.
Pertaining to only one of the sexes?
Are dams involved?
[irach] Single-sex? No.
[Dujon] Dammit!? No.
Is the combustion reference figurative?
Does this relate to a visible phenomenon?
A specific nation?
[Rosie] Figurative Combustion? NO, literal
[INJ] Visible phenomenon? If you are thinking northern lights, then no.
[SW] Specific Nation? No, even smaller than that.
Artistic?
(also, could you actually answer INJ's question? :-) )
[CdM] Artistic? No
Well, I wouldn't define it as a visible phenomenon.
Anything to do with ozone?
[irach] Ozone? NO
Anything involving Guy Fawkes?
Burn it all down? NO
Is the mineral connection a fossil fuel or derivative thereof?
Is this an industrial process?
[irach] Fossil Fuels? Yes, but this is not the only mineral connection.
[Raak] Industrial? NO
Smelting?
Is another mineral connection one of the states of water?
Human connection artisanal?
[Rosie] Smelty, smelty? NO, but metals are involved.
[irach] Water? YES, and in its liquid state
[Software] Artisanal? I'm not quite sure how you mean, but I can say that one artist that I know of is connected, but others are also connected. Please note that people are both directly and indirectly connected to this, but it will be easier if I refer to the people directly connected, because those are the ones I am able to confidently answer about.
Firing a steam engine?
Forgive me.
[Rosie] Light the Rocket? No. But you are close on one aspect...
Are the metals in direct contact with the water or an aqueous solution?
[irach] Not initially, although most of them end up in direct contact with water or an aqueous solution.
Is the water or aqueous solution saline?
Rocket science?
[irach] under the sea? NO
[SW] It's NOT rocket science.
Is one of the metals lead?
[irach] Lead balloon? NO
Does the metal ionise during the reaction that produces oxgen and heat?
The electrolysis of water?
You did say oxygen was produced.
[irach] I am not sure of the answer to that question, but I cna tell you that no radiation is involved.
[Rosie] Electrolysis? I like your thinking, but no.
Is this a means of propulsion?
[Raak] The combustion reaction is a means of propulsion, but the Oxygen-producing reaction has a self-explanatory purpose.
Propulsion of manned spacecraft?
Is the metal component a part of an actual chemical reaction that produces oxygen and heat, or merely a receptacle?
Anything to do with fireworks?
I'm thinking KNO3.
[Raak] To infinity... NO
[irach] The metal is certainly a reaction vessel, but I am not sure if it is present in the reaction, but I think it is.
[Rosie] Sparks will fly? NO
To do with projectile weapons?
[Raak] Fire? NO
Is / are the metal(s) in question found in Group III of Dmitri Mendeleev's Periodic Table?
[irach] Group III? I would presume some would be.
Are the objects propelled routine means of transport, eg. bus, train, car, plane?
[Rosie] Tranport? YES *Audience awakens from its slumber*
Propulsion of the mode of transport through a fluid (liquid or gaseous) matrix?
Fuel cells?
[irach] You've lost me completely. If that includes air, then yes.
[Raak] Eco-cell? NO
Hot air balloon?
A balloon of some other type?
A blimp or dirigible airship?
[SW,Raak,irach] Ballons, airships, etc... NO
"Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines"?
[irach] An aeroplane is involved, yes.
Parachute jump?
[SW] Jumper? NO
Hmm. This clearly hasn't captured our collective imagination, hence no questions for 12 days.
(FGZstar) How's about a summary of the conclusions to date and then the final flourish - offering up a tasty clue?
A ram-jet?
Let's see if I can re-capture your imaginations...

Abstract, with animal, vegetable and mineral connections,

This is NOT *deep breath*: A saying or phrase, fictitious, photosynthesis, connected to a specific sex or nation, involving dams, a visible phenomenon, artistic, related to ozone, anything to do with guy fawkes, an industrial process, smelting, firing a steam engine, involving salt water, rocket science, involving lead, electrolysis, the propulsion of manned spacecraft, fireworks, projectile weaponry, fuel cells, any type of balloon or a parachute jump.

However, it IS: A human concept, sort-of connected to science, involving metal, related to oxygen and heat produced by one reaction, including (but not exclusively) internal combustion, pertaining to a specific group of humans (at least one of which has artistic connections), resulting in the aforementioned metals being in contact with water, involving an oxygen-producing reaction which does not provide propulsion (and this reaction has a metal reaction vessel and does involve metals, which may be in group III of the periodic table) and importantly, this pertains to a propelled means of transport, more specifically an aeroplane.

Right, got all that? Good., because now you can have a clue:
Firstly, the cause of the second reaction (which is the main one in this case) is present in every airline safety demonstration. Secondly, there is only one specific airline and aircraft involved.
Blimey - OK, someone performing an electrolysis experiment onboard a BA Boeing 737, causing a fire to break out, the oxygen masks to drop and the 'plane to crash on the sea (don't worry, everyone got out fine)?
Well, strike a light!
*audience sits up, expectantly*
[Knobbly] You are actually quite close. this is a plane crash, however no electrolysis and not into the sea. Sadly no-one got out fine, or at all. I am looking for the name by which the plane crash is referred to. Oh, and no 737. There was fire, and oxygen masks did not drop, but the oxygen generator (for the masks) is the 'other' reaction.
Ah, ValuJet Flight 592
*Audience goes wild*
YES! I hand over this slightly charred baton.
Doh
Didn't think of the fact that I'd have to think of one...
I would like a go, though. It's very quiet here over the weekend, so I'll think of one before the end of tomorrow *subsides into thoughtful silence*
Ok, this is hopefully not a 4 week one...
Animal
Go!
Human?
[Raak] No.
A single individual?
[Raak] Yes.
Recently deceased?
Female?
Knut?
European?
In captivity?
Mammal?
Forget my last question - I hadn't read back carefully enough.
So much for my AVMA debut
[Dujon]Yes.
[GL] No.
[irach] Yes.
[INJ,CdM,INJ]Moot.
*Sporadic audience applause for irach for being too clever*
Actually, when I thought of it it wasn't very easy as he hadn't been news for years. How was I to know he'd go and die and make the papers again?
Thanks, Knobbly, but someone else will need to start the next one in my place. I am going to be away at a conference the next five days, and may not be able to log into mc5 as frequently as would be necessary to keep the game progressing.
I think Knobbly should have another go!
I wonder whether the choice of Knut was a massive coincidence, or whether Knobbly actually saw/heard some reference to Knut's death without being consciously aware of the fact.
To be honest, I also think knobbly should have another go, although I will admit that my original categorising of my one was flawed, but I was having trouble fitting it successfully into one main box.
Well, ok. This may not be very difficult, but it probably won't be in the news tomorrow.
This is an Animal. Let the guessing commence.
Human?
[INJ] No.
4 legs?
[Software]Yes, one in each corner.
A single individual?
[GL] An individual? No. Although there's only one in the picture in my head it could be any of them.
A deer of some kind?
Normally regarded as edible by humans?
Mammal?
Found wild in the UK?
[Dujon] Deer me, no.
[Rosie] Not normally considered edible.
[INJ] Mammal? Yes. *small ripple of applause*
[Raak] In UK? No.
A bear of any sort?
[Raak] No. I cant bear the tension. Oh dear. I apologise profusely and will hence just answer simply.
Bigger than a toaster?
[Raak]Larger than a toaster? Yes.
Kept as a pet? (By normal people)
[Rosie] No.
Extant?
Hoofed?
A Shetland Pony?
Thelwell cartoons come to mind.
[Raak] Extant - NO. Shouldn't be long now. *More sustained applause*
[INJ] Hooves, yes.
[Software] Not a pony.
An extinct species of horse?
A woolly Mammoth?
[Raak] Not a horse. Although distantly related I think there are closer extant relatives.
[FGZ] No, not a woolly mammoth.
Of the genus Bos, like an aurochs or wisent?
[irach] Bos? No.
Pyrenean Ibex ?
A litoptern?
[irach] Ibex? No
[Raak]Litoptern - No
An extinct camel or llama relative?
A brontothere?
[irach] Not a camelid.
[Raak]Nor a member of the Brontotheriidae, neither.
Rhinoceros-like?
[irach] Well, as you asked a subjective question I was going to say no, because I don't think it is; but I asked an impartial observer and they said it was, so - Rhinoceros-like? YES. *applause*
Stegosaurus?
An Irish Elk?
Unicorn?
[Rosie, INJ, Software] Thrice no.
A dinosaur of some kind?
Died out in the last hundred thousand years?
[GL, Rosie] Hoofed mammal!
[INJ] Less than 0.1 Mya? NO
Coelodonta or Stephanorhinus?
split hooves?
According to wikipedia we're down to a choice of about 220 possibles now ;-)
[FGZ] Neither of them.
[INJ] Is it a member of the order Artiodactyla? - No.
Does it have an ordinary English name?
Unlike "liptotern", "brontothere", or "madeupopodeaceae".
[Raak] It does not, to my knowledge, have a common name. Maybe we can give it one once it has been guessed.
Borissiakia?
Just cos I like the name
Just to confirm - you have answered that this is hoofed and does not have split hooves - I have to assume that means it has a single hoof like a horse, not claws or any other multi-part foot like a deer or elephant.
I notice that I automatically write 'hoofed', but 'hooves' - I'll have to follow that up, though I expect both will be acceptable.
[INJ] Not Borissiakia.
[INJ again] Yes, it does; although I'm getting a bit lost in hoof types. For one thing a deer is a hoofed mammal.
Of the family Brontotheriidae?
[FGZ] No, it still isn't.
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