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AVMA Take 2
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Yes, it's another round of that classic guessing game - Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, Abstract [or any combination thereof]. This effort - '03/'04 should address any queries, but then again, may just serve to confuse and baffle which some might say is the point of the game. Patience, integrity and a decent search engine may be useful ....
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New Year Resolution?
I resolve to hand the baton over to Chalky!
Have we taken a resolution to terminate old games?
No, I don't think we have.
It's been slowing down recently - but I still look at it and try to contribute at least once a day when I'm able to get online (though I try not to ask successive questions). Maybe we need fewer ABSTRACTs in order to get the thing moving along. After all, it's not as if other games are flying along.
Chalky appears to be fairly abstract at the moment ;o)
I'm sure she's here in spirit.
Absent friends
I don't get the feeling we are going to see Chalky soon.
EEEK!
sorrysorry. Have been away for a few days - had completely forgotten I'd posted that. Thanks for your patience ....

Next one: ANIMAL/MINERAL/VEGETABLE with ABSTRACT connections

I should be around for mornings and evenings for a few days so pile 'em up ....
Life, the Universe and Everything?
Animal is human?
One step at a time ...
Is it manufactured?
Is it a place or geographical location?
Is it you?
Is it Animal AND Vegetable AND Mineral in one instance?
[INJ] Life etc? NO
[Softers] Animal a Human Beeng? NO
[Raak] Manufactured? mmmm ... erm ... sometimes.
[INJ] Place or Location? NO
[Kim] Moi? NON :-)
[Phil] AVM in one instance? Good question - YES, it can be, but then, can, as likely, not be.
Objects that bear a miracluous resemblance to Jesus/Mother Teresa/Tony Blair/etc.?
[Raak] Incredulous Looky-likes? NO - but I suppose one could discern a resemblance given a vivid imagination :)
Would the animal be mythical?
foody?
Sorry for delay
[Software] Mythical? NO
[CdM] foody-y? YES!
A dish?
Food, not ceramic
[INJ] A dish? NO - not a dish
Some sort of convenience snack?
Mmm, salted crisps cooked in lard....
Pork Scratchings?
[Raak] Salty snack? Yes - could be
[Software] Pig scabs? Yes - could be

[INJ] I have cast off my pedant's hat to amend my reply to your recent question: Yes - could be
Normally eaten in a pub?
[Rosie] Pub Grub? Yes - could be
Is the occasion on which it is eaten significant?
Cost under a quid? (£1 Sterling, whatever that's worth today?)
[Raak] Eaten on significant occasion? Yes - could be
[Bigsmith] Low Cost? Yes - could be
Food in general?
A generic description of a meal?
(like 'a square meal' or 'breakfast')
A Tasty Snack?
[Raak] Food in general? YES! *audience cheers because the Animal/Vegetable/Mineral boxes have been ticked*
[INJ] Generic description of a meal? Not exactly 'generic' - but you're heading in the right direction..
[Softers] Tasty Snack? Yes - could be
A snack?
The "Mediterranean Diet"?
[Rosie] A snack? Yes - could be
[Raak] The Mediterranean Diet? Yes - could be

It may be more useful if I change the definition to ANIMAL/MINERAL/VEGETABLE/ABSTRACT [rather than 'with Abstract connections']. We can discuss the rights and wrongs of such a move when this has been guessed :)
Is it to do with dieting in general?
Consumed at a single sitting?
(I know - 'Yes - could be')
[Kim] Dieting? NO *audience chuckles*
[INJ] Single sitting? Funny you should say that/ Yes - it could well be consumed at a single sitting :-)
Overeating?
Munchies?
[Raak] Overeating? Not exactly - but * the audience applauds your attempt to explore the Abstract nature of this little puzzle*
[irach] Munchies? well - having the Munchies certainly links neatly with the words on the card.
Brunch?
Does the card include the word "traditional"?
{Raak] Brunch? Yes - could be
[Dujon] The card does NOT include the word 'traditional'
Cocktail party?
Does it have to do with the enjoyment of good food, but not necessarily to excess?
Who ate all the pies?
[irach] Cocktail party? Yes - could be
[Kim] Non - excessive enjoyment of good food? Yes - could be
[Software] Who Ate The Pies? No - but *audience applauds another attempt to explore the Abstract element*

[Aside to Softers - Are you in Jersey or Guernsey? My memory fails me]
Eating in general?
[Raak] Eating in general? The AotC certainly suggests eating in general *< mode:clue > however, it isn't an action < /clue >*
A square meal?
[Chalky] Guernsey? Wash your mouth out!
[Software] A square meal? Yes - it could include one of those
What I (you? someone?) ate last night?
Entertaining in general?
[CdM] What we ate last night? Yes - it could include this
[Kim] Entertaining in general? Remember - The AotC is not an action. However, it IS entertaining :) <<<<< points to another clue
Finger foods?
A TV Dinner?
Food groups, nutrition triangles, or some such thing?
[irach] Finger foods? Yes - it could include these
[Sierra Mike] TV Dinner? Yes - it could include this
[CdM] Food groups, nutrition triangles, or such-like? OK - it could include these 'though such dour terminology sits uneasily with the AotC.

Hint: It may be helpful to approach this puzzle from the ABSTRACT angle as it's clear that the A/V/M part is 'food'.
Cookery programmes?
Junk food?
[Raak] Cookery progs? NO
[IruleOK] Junk? NO
Related to any grading system, e.g. Michelin stars?
A banquet?
[Raak] Michelins? NON
[Rosie] Banquet? NO

The negative replies only indicate that the guesses are not the Answer on the Card. How can something so tangible as food become an Abstract?
Fictional?
*applauds Raak*
[Raak] Fictional? Ooh - good question. YES - but I reply with some hesitation.
A work of fiction containing embedded recipes?
"Like Water for Chocolate", etc.
[Raak] fiction - embedded? NO
Food for Thought?
[Softers] Food for Thought? NO - but you and Raak are moving in the right direction.

Summary: The Animal/Vegetable/Mineral part is FOOD [any food in any guise]. The Abstract part originates from a work of fiction - but many things do! There is a key question that hasn't been asked yet. Oh - and it IS a well-known phrase or saying.
The Food of the Gods?
Does it begin with one of the letters A-O or Q-Z (inclusive)?
[Rosie] The Food of the Gods? NO - but *audience applauds with gusto!*
[CdM] At last! Not P? YES :)
The Staff of Life?
[Raak] The Staff of Life? Not the AotC, NO.

My response to Kim's question may provide a clue to the 'key question'
A Bun Fight?
getting desperate
[Softers] A Bun Fight? NO :)
Iron Chef?
The food of love / An aphrodisiac?
sneaking in two related guesses for the price of one.
Clarification please
AotC????????
[Raak] Iron Chef? [Who is this person?] NO
[CdM] Aphrodis/Lovin'food? NO
[Sierra Mike] Answer on the Card [as per the original ISIHAC game :)

There is still a key question that should bridge the gap between 'originates from a work of fiction' and the answer. There is an intermediate level. Please keep asking Abstract-type questions and forget about guessing random food-related phrases.
Supping with The Devil?
Use a long spoon, they say.
tum te tum te tum
[Rosie] Suppin with Devil? NO
Is the work of fiction (primarily) a book
i.e. best known as a book rather than say, the film of a book
Was the phrase coined in the 20th century?
[INJ] Book/Film? Good question. Originally a BOOK - which is very well-known by a very well-known author. The book has been adapted [I use the term deliberately] to make a FILM - which is well-known in a different way. The AotC comes from the FILM.
[Graham III] Coined in C20? Absolutely YES - the second half of the century.
*hints that the Book has been mentioned in 'Ex Libri Bardus'*
Wuthering Heights
In my own defense I Googled it before I asked.
AOTC Attack of the Clones (Star Wars Episode Two)
AOTC Australian Overseas Telecommunications Corporation
AotC Ark of the Covenant (gaming)
AOTC Ahead of the Curve
AotC Aspect of the Cheetah (gaming, World of Warcraft)
AOTC Associated Offices Technical Committee (UK)
AOTC Ahead of Time Crew (band)
AOTC Autodesk Official Training Courseware
A.O.T.C. - Association of Orthopaedic Technologists California
AOTC - Amarillo Obedience Training Club
AotC Army of the Cumberland
AOTC Atlantic OSHA Training Center
AOTC Administrative Office of the Trial Court
I also swept back in the game itself, though obviously not far enough.
The Naked Lunch?
Eats, Shoots and Leaves?
la la lala la la lala
[INJ] The Naked Lunch? NO
[Kim] Eats Stuff? NO *audience sighs and seeks alternative entertainment*
I might well have missed something or other in this rather drawn out seeking: Given that - is this (at least) something like 'Manna from Heaven' ?
[Duj] Manna from Heaven? Yes - it could be - but it's not the AotC
*attempting to entertain the audience*
In addition to the BOOK and the FILM there is also a STAGE production.
Food of the Gods?
[Softers] Food of the Gods? I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous reply to Rosie. ^^^^

...and while you're up there - you may spot all the clues I've been giving. [Where's Projoy when you need him?]
food, glorious food?
Damn! How did I miss that?
Answer, Glorious Answer!
At last dear CdM - the very Words on the Card *audience applauds, cheers and generally goes wild*

The SONG from the FILM and the STAGE production which is an adaptation of the BOOK. A well-known phrase all about FOOD which is very entertaining.
Thanks for letting me off the hook.
[INJ] shame on you :)

* hands over a stuffed baguette to CdM*
[Chalky] Please miss, can I have another?
[CdM] um ... only if I can guess yours :)
All right. This is ABSTRACT with ANIMAL and MINERAL connections.
Is the answer an Abstract Noun?
Abstract noun? No. The answer is a noun phrase that refers to something abstract.
A saying?
A Place?
A human construction?
Mineral metal?
Fictional?
A saying? No.
A place? No
Human construction? Yes.
Metal? No.
Fictional? Yes.
Would this abstractness be . . . well . . . revelationary?
revelationary? I'm really not sure I understand the question. But I can say that it would be useful to learn what kind of abstraction this is. Also, some claim that this abstraction is something some claim to be very revelatory or revelationary or something.
A book?
Book? No.
Anything to do with the internets?
Does it begin with P?
Internetty? No.
P-begun? No.
Science Fictiony?
Sciffy? No.
Mineral stone?
Mineral stone? Yes.
Related to the arts?
Arty? Yes, for a reasonably broad definition of "arts".
A statue?
Statue? No. (abstract, remember)
A pillar of some kind?
A monument?
Pillar? No. (abstract, remember)
Monument? No. (abstract, remember)
Between a Rock and a Hard Place?
Is the animal connection human?
Hard rock? No.
Human animal? Yes.
Is it a painting?
A specific human?
e.g. The Iron Chancellor
Specific human? Yes, but be careful how you interpret that answer.
Err....is it a painting?
Oops
Repainting? No. (abstract, remember)
The Theory of Evolution?
Talking about an evolution? No.
Related to a craft?
Crafty? No.
The Man in the Moon?
Mr. Moonlight? No.
Is it a title (e.g president of blahland)?
Religiousy, faithy ?
Is the human a single named real person
(Now, how many questions is that?)
Lady? No.
Madonna? No.
Single named real person? Yes, yes, yes and no.
Perhaps I should punctuate that less ambiguously as: yes; yes; yes and no.
A fictionalised representation based on a real person?
A character in literature?
Fictionalised representation based on real person? Yes.
Based on a novel? No.
Political?
You say you'll change the constitution? No.
Is it associated wih a specific country?
Know where land? No.
I should qualify that last answer. It is probably associated with a particular country but I don't think those associations are particularly relevant or useful.
Give us a clue
A little help
It was getting lonely in this game without you; I thought you were all leaving. I've already peppered clues throughout my last few answers, being for the benefit of you all. Really, I thought you were all getting better at these, but now I don't think you are going to work it out for another fifteen years.
John Bull?
Is 2024 significant?
Some connection with popular beat combo The Beatles?
John, Paul, George and Ringo
Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds?
Such a lovely audience
John Bull? Er, no.
Is 2024 significant? I dunno, Projoy. Will you still be sending me a valentine?
Beatly? The audience would applaud this preternatural leap of deductive logic, but they are all too distracted by something shiny.
LitSwD? Yes! Phil gets the psychedelic baton.
A hint of lurking, but I think I did ask a question earlier.

Let us proceed with ANIMAL

The obvious:
Human?
[Dujon] Human? YES
Male?
[Rosie] Male? YES
A male human. That reduces the chances so:
Is this a male human who lives or lived?
[Dujon] Extant or extinct? YES
Alive?
[Rosie] Alive? NO
Was he alive some time in the 20th century?
[Raak] Alive during 20th century? YES
A political figure?
[Rosie] Political figure? NO
Your answer to Rosie's and Raak's questions does indeed raise other buts and ifs:
Was this man a scientist?
[Dujon] A scientist? NO
A writer?
Alive in the year 2001?
[Software] A writer? NO
[CdM] Alive in 2001? NO
A celebrity?
[Software] A celebrity? Hmmmm....if you mean "a famous person" then YES. But if you mean someone who seeks fame then NO.
A performer of any kind?
Alive in 1900?
[Rosie] Performer? NO
[GIII] Alive in 1900? NO
Famous largely for a single thing (is a single event rather than a whole career)?
[CdM] Famous for a single event? NO
A novelist or playwright (either)?
[Rosie] Novelist/Playwright? Neither
Someone who became accidentally famous?
[Software] Became famous accidentally? Tricky...probably YES *some interest from an intelligent audience*
Someone who was naturally reclusive?
Is there a sporting connection?
An academic?
Corpuschristitrimble.
[GIII] Naturally reclusive? I think I'll go for YES, although there could be some debate on "naturally".
[CdM] Sporting? NO
[Rosie] Academic? NO
A songwriter?
A Nobel Laureate?
[Rosie] A songwriter? NO
[Dujon] A Nobel Laureate? NO
A public servant?
[Rosie] Public servant? NO
An actor?
[GIII] An actor? NO
Some who makes things?
[Rosie] Makes things? NO
Did he live to more than fifty years old?
[CdM] Lived > 50yrs? NO
A soldier?
Were cyanide and an apple involved in this man's death?
[Rosie] A soldier? NO
[Dujon] Cyanide and an apple? NO

I'm tempted to give a clue, but I don't think it's needed just yet.

Did he give his name to something known by people of all ages?
[Rosie] Gave his name to something? NO
Eddie "the Eagle" Edwards?
grasping at straws
Notorious?
[Software] The Eagle? NO (no sporting connection)
[CdM] Notorious? YES *hearty applause*
Did he disappear?
A serial killer?
Criminal?
[GIII] Disappear? NO
[CdM] Serial Killer? YES *Even heartier applause*
[Projoy] Criminal? YES
British?
Hannibal the Cannibal?
[GIII] British? NO
[irach] Hannibal? NO
Did this man 'operate' from a shack somewhere in the U.S. of A.?
Mack the Knife?
[Dujon] Various questions asked, but I'm guessing that what you want to know is that the person in question is from the USA.
[Rosie] Mack the Knife? NO, it's a real person, as previously established.
The Boston Strangler?
[Software] Boston Strangler? NO
This shouldn't really take long, now that we've established that it's a real American serial killer, who lived in died in under 50 years, some time between 1901 and 2000.
A curious aside: no-one was ever arrested, charged or convicted of the "Boston Strangler" murders, and criminal theorists now believe that more than one person was involved.
Thanks Phil. That narrows it down to a hundred or so.
Fried?
That should narrow it down considerably.
Son of Sam?
Aka David Berkowitz
[IS,P!] Fried? If you mean did he fry his victims, then NO. If you mean was he executed on the electric chair, then also NO.
[INJ] Son of Sam? NO
Died of natural causes?
[Phil] Bollocks. I was sure it was Ted Bundy.
[IS,P!] Natural causes? NO
Was this 'gentleman's' fate (read death) brought about by a fellow prison inmate?
[Dujon] Done in by a fellow lag? YES *Intense applause*
Jeffrey Dahmer?
who I looked up last night on google, and have since been regretting ever reading about.
[Projoy] J. Dahmer? CORRECT! I thought that would go quicker, as he was the first serial killer that sprung to my mind. Not a terribly nice chap, but I do find the US police's attitude to their inept, racist, homophobic officers rather disgraceful and distasteful. Anyway, I hand over a baton made of nothing ghastly, thankfully.
So, Jeffrey Dahmer, then. Not exactly a name on everyone's lips. What proportion of the people in this country have ever 'eard of the bugger? The square root of a mouse's ear'ole, at a generous estimate. What on earth is the point of all this? There are better things to do than ferret around websites looking for the name, amongs hundreds, of American serial killers. The answer should be in one's head, if the spirit of the original game is to be followed. This game is a waste of time.
Yes but
As often happens, I find myself broadly in agreement with Rosie’s viewpoint, though not with his way of expressing it or conclusion. I lose interest in this game the moment it becomes evident that I’m going to have to start searching the web for the answer. I know others take the view that doing so is not unreasonable given the fact that this is an online game, so I won’t stop playing. However, if I get in again, I won’t select answers that I wouldn’t expect a good proportion of participants to know about.
Having said all that, I had heard of Jeffrey Dahmer, although it was only passive knowledge and I doubt if I would ever have dragged the name up without googling.
Over to Projoy
[INJ/Rosie] I apologise. I thought Jeffrey Dahmer was as well known as, say, Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hindley, Harold Shipman et al. I didn't expect anyone to need to search the web to find the answer. It appears that I know a dangerously disproportionate amount about serial killers, and I did not intend that one to be so hard. My thought process was "Umm...what to do? I think I'll make it simple by just doing a person. Who shall I do? How about someone infamous rather than famous. Oh, I know...Jeffrey Dahmer." I even had a mental image of his photo in my head. Soz!
[Phil] You are obviously the person to have on one's pub quiz team - or are you the one who sets them?
Magnanimity
(Phil) A generous apology. The thing is that it is very frustrating, having scratched one's head throughout over what the answer could be, to find that you could never have got it in the first place. It's not as if I lack general knowledge, or was born, er, yesterday. On with the show, then.
Hm.
Well, I certainly had heard of Jeffrey Dahmer. I only resorted to google to get the fact about his being killed by another prisoner (which I didn't know). I certainly think of him as sufficiently infamous to be on the tip of people's tongues.

That said, I'm one of those who's happy to google and isn't disappointed to discover the answer was something I couldn't have guessed. For then I learn something new I did not know before and my life is just that bit brighter... and sometimes I still get to win the round despite only pretending to have known all along about the obscure answer. :-)

Anyway, my turn. This is something players may or may not have in mind already. ABSTRACT
Murder? ;-)
[Software] Both, actually - I write a quiz every week for the pub, so I tend to have a scant knowledge of a wide range of not terribly useful subjects.
Spring?
[Phil] And when dey met, it wuz... NO
[Rosie] Grass is riz? NO
To do with endings?
[Raak] Terminates here? NO
Homophobia?
Just a thought.
[Dujon] Filthy Prancing Shirtlifters? NO
A phrase or saying?
Connected with the arts?
[Phil] No apology required - my comment read as more critical than I intended. I was trying to agree with Rosie's general point rather than criticising your choice of subject, which may well have met my criteria for reasonableness. Casting my mind back, some of my subjects were probably not justifiable by those criteria anyway.
[Software] Linguistic trope? NO
[INJ] Artful? NO (only very tangentially and unhelpfully)
Scientific?
I know we keep having the same discussions over and over again in the morniverse. It may be one of its defining features. Still, this one is a more than a bit tiresome, because the discussion really is identical each time. Someone (usually Rosie, to be honest) complains that the chosen subject was unsuitable because they hadn't heard of it, and they conjecture that most others have not heard of it either. Someone else (often me, to be honest :-) ) observes that there is no requirement for this game to follow the "spirit of the original game", because this game is on the internets, where we have search engines. Can we just agree to disagree on this one, and accept that people have different standards for what makes a reasonable/good subject?

I'd add two points. First, I think Rosie may have actually misjudged Dahmer's notoriety. I certainly knew of him, and I suspect the majority here have heard of him as well (which probably says something good about Rosie and bad about the rest of us, come to think of it). Second, this is an international community, so I don't think the trivia of "this country" should be privileged: in the global scheme of things, I expect that Dahmer is much better known than Sutcliffe, Shipman or Hindley.
Specific to a single culture?
[CdM] Point taken - and I think my lack of knowledge about Dahmer probably reflects on me (I do tend to avoid that sort of story). That said; to me, googling to get the answer feels like cheating.
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