mc5 - AVMA Take 2

Absent-mindedness?

Abstraction?

Is it a gerund?

anarcho-syndicalism? :)

Adjective? No. Nor is it one.
An -ism? Yes. *applause*
Absent-mindedness?
Abstraction? No, but *sustained applause and a little laughter*
An -ing? No (although there is a gerund that is very closely related to the word on the card, and my answers would probably be identical had I picked that word instead). (In fact, pedantically speaking, I think my answer to, say, your (Iroul's) previous question was probably more about the -ing than the -ism.)
AS? No.

Anthropomorphism?

Spoonerism?

Spoonerism? On, but...
Anthropormorphism? Yes! Chalky gets a highly relieved baton

post -traumatic stress

OK-a-a-aay. The baton enjoyed a few hours sleep but only after extensive counselling. Any temporary relief may be short-lived ....

V E G E T A B L E / A B S T R A C T with ANIMAL/MINERAL connections

Is the abstract vegetable metaphorical?

[Raak] Metaphorical? NO

Edible?

Is the abstract a state of the vegetable?

[CdM] A good subject, but I'm trying hard to see how we could have got to it more logically (of course we could have been luckier at times)

Are the animal connections human?

[INJ] No, I don't think it was a very good subject, actually. It seemed clever when I thought of it, but abstract nouns like that tend to be a bit too, well, abstract. I perhaps should have pointed you to think harder about my human construct ("in two distinct ways") answer. Otherwise you are right; my answers felt very vague to me, and it is hard to see how you could have found your way any better.

The grapes of wrath?

CdM] I thought it was a good one - I'd rather too difficult than too easy.

[CdM] Edible? NO
[INJ] Abstract a state of the vegetable? If you mean the condition of the vegetable - then only in the broadest possible sense.
[CdM] Human animal connections? YES
[Irouléguy] The grapes? NO

Is the vegetable growing/alive?

[INJ] Growing/Alive? YES ;)

Is it a geographical entity?

[Phil] Geographical entity? NO

Fictional?

One particular vegetable?

[Quendalon] Fictional? NO
[Rosie] One particular vegetable? Worded thus, your question can only receive a NO/YES/SORT OF reply. Sorry.

Is the vegetable wood?

[Irouléguy] Wood? NO

I can't believe it has gone this long without someone asking, so.....does it begin with 'P'?

[Bigsmith] Does it begin with a 'P'? ONE of the words on the card does!

Many plants all of the same type?

To try to resolve Rosie's question!

Is it "The Great Pumpkin"?

A quality or characteristic of a vegetable?

Is it connected to a particular human?

[INJ] Many plants all of the same type? In a manner of speaking - YES. *audience applauses*
[Kim] The Great Pumpkin? NO
[Quendalon] Quality or characteristic of a vegetable? I shall say YES with slight reservations because I wouldn't wish to lead you astray :-)
[Tuj] Any particular human? Most definitely NO - the human[animal]/mineral element merely supports the main definition, ie. these components make it happen.

A forest or wood?

Does the answer relate to a particular sense?

(As in smell, etc)

[Rosie] A forest or a wood? NO [but you're moving in the right direction re: the 'vegetable']
[INJ] Relate to a particular sense? *audience applauds an excellent question* Not a straightforward YES here - the answer has connections with sensory organs.

The scented garden?

[Software] Scented garden? NO

Tactile connections?

[Quend] Tactility? um ... NO - by saying that, I'm trying to be helpful :-)

Are the vegetables trees?

{Irouléguy] Are the vegetables trees? NO! You have already asked the wood question :)

An allotment?

[Rosie] An Allotment? NO

Are vegetebles mainly flowers?

[Rosie] Vegetables mainly flowers? They could be - in this particular instance [the Abstract element] they are not.

CLUE: 'Vegetable' can mean something other than a fruit, a plant, an ebible vegetable, a tree, a forest, a flower etc.

ebible? ebible?

Roots?

Chalky] What's wrong with an e-bible? God gave Moses the Ten Commandments on two Tablets, remember ;)

The Pollen Count?

[Irouléguy] Roots? NO - but much much closer because ..

ImNotJohn has tapped straight into my wavelength with a perfect answer!
*sneezes then hands over the baton*

Wipes the baton carefully

I nearly guessed that a couple of days earlier
So let's start again with ABSTRACT/MINERAL

A geological feature?

[CdM]geological feature? - NO

A work of art?

Fictional?

Is the mineral metal of some kind?

[GIII] But is it art? - NO
[Quen] Fictional? - Might be, might not be
[Bigsmith] Metal? - NO

Is it a mineral of myth or legend?

[Kim] Mithril or legendary? - NO

Unique?

Human construct?

A figure of speech?

[Quen] Unique - NO
[CdM] Human etc. - YESish
[Raak] Figure of Speech - YES (applause)

Is it a saying specific to a region or country?

[G111] Region/country specific? - NO

Language-specific?

Feet of clay?

Having a go from the halfway line.

[CdM] The answer is in a specific language ;-)
Could it be in another? - I don't know, and I don't think it would help if I did
[Rosie] Floating like a butterfly? - NO (tipping it over the bar with nonchalant ease)

Is the word "rock" on the card?

A ton of bricks?

Is the mineral iron?

This shouldn't take long

[Quen] Rocky? - NO
[Raak] ton of bricks? - NO
[Dujon] ironic? - NO

Grounds for complaint?

Isthe mineral water?

Is the language English?

(Raak) Is the mineral water what? I think it is, actually. We'll see.

[Software] - Grounds for complaint? - NO
[Raak] watery? - NO
[Rosie] In English? - YES (sorry, I wasn't trying to be clever)

Is the mineral silicon based?

[Glll] silicon-based? - YES is the most helpful answer (*applause*)

Burying one's head in the sand?

cyber space?

Nearly there

[Glll] - Ostriching? - NO (but plenty more applause)
[Software] Cyber space - NO (they fall silent again)

Is the word sand in the answer?

[Glll] 'sand' in answer - YES

The sands of time?

[Raak] egg-timer? - NO
Keep trying

Shifting sands?

Cassandra? Sandra Day O'Connor? Pinsand needles?

A line in the sand?

oh, I bet that's right...

And the next one please

And Rosie gets it! The answer is 'A line in the sand'.
*Baton passed carefully without stepping too far*

*Somewhat startled, reaches over silicaceous demarcation zone and grabs the precious icon.*.

This time, it's - A N I M A L

Is it human?

(G III) Human? - certainly is

alive?

British?

(INJ) Alive? - Could be.
(Raak) British? - Could be.

Is it, at any given moment , a single specific human being?

(e.g., 200 meters hurdles world record holder)

(CdM) Not a single specific person in the way you mean.

A class of being, i.e. police?

Fictional?

Since the "could be" I can't get "Hong Kong Phooey, number one superguy; Hong Kong Phooey, quicker than the human eye" out of my head. Thanks, Rosie. I wonder if that's what inspired Software (hello hello? Police Headquarters).

(Software) - YES, sort of.
(ISP) It makes me think of Monty Python's Nudge, Nudge sketch.

(ISP) Just realised I hadn't answered your question. NO, not fictional.

Both male and female?

Might this person oft times be referred to as 'religious'?

(CdM) No hermaphrodites. One sex only.
(Dujon) Not essentially a religious person.

The occupant of some office?

It is more than one person, right?

(Raak) If you mean the office as a room, then NO.
(CdM) slightly hesitantly, YES

The holder of some position?

That sort of office.

(Raak) Holder of some position? - YES, but not quite in the usual sense. *approving murmurs from the audience*

Male?

(Irg) Male? - Certainly is. *More approving murmurs*

The winner of some competition?

The son and heir?

(Raak) - Not a competition winner.
(Irg) No, that would be impossible. *some discreet sniggers amongst wittier members of the audience*

Eunuchs?

(Bigsmith) "....and Goebbels had no balls at all"? NO, though strictly there is no reason why the subject(s) may not be differently-orchidised.

A child?

(Graham III) - NO, not a child.
Clarification:- My reply to Irouléguy has a temporal significance.

Do you have to be a certain age to be this?

The holder of some kind of record?

(Irouléguy) - Age limits? - YES, in effect, though not in a formal sense.
(Tuj) Not a record-holder.

The oldest man in the world?

[INJ] I was going to ask that a day or so ago, but the animal's not necessarily alive. I asked my previous question to completely rule it out.

A group defined by having experienced/lived through a particular event?

[Tuj] Yes, you're right - it's ruled out for a few reasons (like, not a single specific person) - Scrub that and try this one.

(INJ) (Qu. 1) Not the oldest man in the world. Nothing to do with his age, actually.
(Qu. 2) NO, but an event is involved. *Sort-of approving noises from the audience*

Is the event in the future?

For example, the team to represent GBR in the men's 4x100m sprint relay at the Beijing Olympics.

(Bigsmith) A future event team? NO, the event is basically now but could be in the recent past.

Associated with one particular country?

(Tuj) NO, not associated with one particular country.

Begins with P?

Knew I'd forgotten something.

(Tuj) Perfectly preposterous proposition, pal - er, Not P.

Does the word 'veteran' appear on the card?

(Dujon) The word "veteran" - NO, no old soldiers.

Is the related 'event' to do with family?

Dead man's shoes?

Grasping at straws

(INJ) - Family? Very much so, Gary. *vigorous applause*
(Softers) - The straws got away. Not "Dead man's shoes"

The father of the bride?

[Rosie] Surely you meant 'Very much so, yes; Gary'

*suspects INJ has given it away*

but just in case... A father-in-law?

(INJ) NO, not the bride's father. re "Gary" - you may well be right. :-)
(Irg) Worth the shot, but not him either.

To do with a birth?

(probably just as well - I won't be posting on Thursday or Friday, so I'd better not win this)

A godfather?

(INJ) Fear not; you haven't. It's nothing to do with a birth. Good luck on K2 and see you Saturday.
(Phil) NO, not a godfather.

Defined by relationship(s) with others?

A grandfather?

(Quendalon) NO, not defined by any relationship.
(Irouléguy) Not a grandfather.

Dutch Uncle?

(Software) NO, not a Dutch Uncle.

The head of the family?

(Irouléguy) NO, not the head of the family.

Related to geographical location?

(Quendalon) NO, no geographical connection.

Hint: You're all missing a feature of the answer that has been the subject of two questions and answers.

Is there more than one of these in a family?

Is there one of these in most families?

Having seconds, as no-one else has had a go for a while.

A maiden aunt?

Sperm?

(Irg) Both questions - There could be. Not relevant, really.
(Raak) Not a maiden aunt. (It's male)
(Quendalon) Sperm? NO. A fully-formed male person.

Best man?

YESSSS! Raak is the best man! Speech!

An alarm clock?

[Rosie] Good one, although the audience surely could have given INJ's 'father of the bride' a little encouragement. I'm still confused by the audience reaction to 'son and heir', though.

Unaccustomed as I am...

[CdM] If the happy couple's son was the best man at their wedding...

The next is M I N E R A L.

Metal?

[Raak] Unusual perhaps, but not "not possible"

Art?

And the son & heir of whom was not defined. My best man was the son and heir of the father of the groom for example...

[CdM] Made of metal.

Unique?

One metal only?

(CdM) Raak's explanation of the "son and heir" audience reaction is what I was thinking of, though I agree it's a bit convoluted and overdone.

Begins with P?

[Rosie] I was more confused as to why the answer to "Alive?" was "could be"

[I] Not unique.
[R] One metal? Possibly, perhaps likely, but not useful to know.
[T] P.

Man-made?

[Q] Man-made.

Does it use electricity?

(Tuj) Well, my Dad's best man is dead, as no doubt are Henry VIII's. I could have said "Yes, at the time" but that would have been giving too much away.

Any moving parts?

[Rosie] Not usually electric.
[CdM] Yes, there are moving parts.

When not electric, is it powered by hand or foot?

Larger than a toaster?

[R] When not electric, it is powered by (at least one of) hand or foot. (Murmurings in the audience.) Ok, partly powered.
[I] Not larger than a toaster.

A timepiece?

[Rosie] (the audience almost applaud) Not a timepiece.

Is it a domestic item?

Used in the kitchen?

Scales?

[Raak] I wonder what that sounds like ;)

[R] Npot domestic.
[I] ...hence not used in the kitchen.
[Tuj] Not scales.
[Tuj] The sound of two hands clapping, but not against each other.

BELLOWS . . . whoops, sorry . . . bellows?

Do people own these things?

A tool?

[D] Not bellows.
[R] People own these.
[I] In a general sense, yes. (Is a pencil a tool? Is a kettle a tool? In that sense, this thing is a tool.)

Associated with leisure?

This weekend I was at a 20th anniversary celebration - we had also been at the wedding, where the best man was the son and heir of the groom (he was a widower).

[INJ] Er...yes, associated with leisure.

A compass?

Also, can you answer my first question?

[GIII] Sorry, missed that. Not art, and not a compass.

Anything to do with television?

Can one person, alone, make full use of it for its intended purpose?

[R] Not directly connected with TV.
[Q] More than one person must be involved.

Is it a game?

[Rosie] (the audience grow alert but not yet excited) Not a game.

Is it a toy?

[Phil] Not a toy.

Associated with sport(s)?

[Q] (applause!) Yes, associated with sports.

Associated with a ball game?

A boule?

[I] Not associated with a ball game.
[G] ...not even in French.

Associated with athletics?

a dart?

A starter's pistol?

[Rosie] (cheering) Associated with athletics.
[Software] Not a dart.
[Phil] **BANG** A starter's pistol.

Really? Gosh! I'll try and think of a new one in the morning.....way too "sleepy" right now.

Till now, I'd even forgotten I'd won, that's how "sleepy" I was.

OK, out next AVMA is VEGETABLE

Begins with P?

Unique?

Edible?

[Tuj] P? NO
[Quendalon] Unique? NO
[Irouléguy] Edible? NO - a titter from the audience

Made of wood?

Potable?

[Rosie] Made of wood? Partially
[Dujon] Potable? NO

Something constructed?

A British Rail Sandwich?

surely inedible?

[Irouléguy] Constructed? Not my first choice of word, but YES.
[Software] BR Butty? NO - I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the audience's titter.

Normally found in the home?

Bigger than a washing machine?

Toasters have been way too privileged in this game.

[INJ] Normally found in the home? It can be.
[CdM] Bigger than a washing machine? YES and NO - depends how you measure "bigness"

Main purpose decorative or display?

I take your answer to CdM to mean: greater in at least 1 dimension, but with a lesser volume than a 600mm x 600mm x 900mm toaster.

[INJ] Mainly decorative? Hmmmm... NO
Re: CdM's question: My answer, in this instance, means larger in at least 1 dimension, but lesser in volume than a standard domestic washing machine (approx 900 x 600 x 600mm). By the way, you have a very big toaster!

Broom?

A tool?

CdM may have said washing machine, but the traditions of the game dictate that he must have meant toaster

does it begin with a P?

[INJ] Maybe he said 'washing machine' because if you say 'toaster' to Phil he puts a bag on his head...

[Quendalon] Broom? NO
[INJ] Tool? NO
[IS,P!] Begin with P? Still NO. And can I take the bag off now please?

Is it used in sport?

Part of the structure of a house?

[Chalky] Used in sport? NO
[Rosie] Part of structure of house? NO *a little applause*

Is it significantly longer than it is wide?

[CdM] Length much > width? Not necessarily, but can be.

A crawling board?

[Rosie] Crawling board? NO

Is this designed to protect?

[Dujon] Designed to protect? Partially YES, but not exclusively to protect.

Is it something like ivy, which covers a house and can project but may not be considered decorative?

That was a lot of words!

[Software] Something like ivy? NO

Would it normally contain something?

[Chalky] A container? NO

Easily portable?

[INJ] Easily portable? NO

Some kind of door or entrance?

We know that it is wholly vegetable but only partially made out of wood. So
Is it primarily (say, more than 90%) wood?

[Rosie] Door or entrance? NO
[CdM] > 90% wood? NO

Is the bit that's not wood some form of natural vegetation?

[Chalky Ntural vegetation? Not in its original form. Don't forget that this has been "contructed", although that is not the most ideal word to convey what has happened to the vegetable constituents.

Is it fewer than 10% wood?

[Phil] I just did that to annoy you. :-)

If not "constructed" would "fashioned" or "sculpted" (either) be a more appropriate description?

[CdM] <10% wood? NO (Me? Annoyed? Nonsense! *unclenches teeth*
[Rosie] Fashioned/sculpted? NO. Probably further from ideal than "constructed", in fact.

Essentially an outdoors object?

[Rosie] Outdoors? NO

Does this comprise of wood (combined with something else) which has been shredded/chipped and then moulded?

Is this always 100% vegetable? (no screws, nails, glue, ink...)

[Dujon] Shredded wood combined with something else and moulded? I think that warrants a YES - *relieved applause*
[CdM] Always 100% vegetable? Good question. Further research reveals a trace of mineral that I was previously unaware of, plus some pigment that may be vegetable or mineral. But essentially I'd say YES, at least 99.5% vegetable. *some more applause*

Would the typical morniverser own one?

Wood chipping mulch/dressing?

[CdM] Would a Morniverser own one? Probably not, but possibly.
[Software] Wood chippings? NO

Paper involved?

[INJ] Paper? NO

"Processed wood" eg chipboard?

[Rosie] Processed wood? NO

Is it MDF?

A little summary perhaps...

The answer on the card is almost entirely vegetable (over 99%) with a trace of mineral, and perhaps some animal. Wood makes up between 10 and 90% of it. It is partially, but not exclusively designed to protect, but is not mainly decorative.
Shredded wood combined with something else and moulded got a YES, but it's not perfectly accurate. It also got some applause. Other applause has been for "part of the structure of a house?", although the answer was NO. Also, querying if it was always 100% vegetable received some applause - mainly for being such a good question.
It is larger, in at least one dimension than a washing-machine-sized toaster. It is not "fashioned or sculpted" from wood. Technically-speaking it is constructed, but that is not how I would put it.

...more...

It does not begin with P; is not a tool, broom, container or crawling board. It does not involve paper, and is not a type of processed wood (such as chipboard), not is it wood mulch. The typical Morniverser probably doesn't own one, but might. It is not used in sport, is not an outdoors object.
Also, the non-wood part is not natural vegetation in its original form.

[Kim] MDF? NO

Is this wooden percentage made up mainly of bark?

Thanks for the precis, Phil, but that's not the job of the Chair and should be attended by one of his or her fawning acolytes.

Is it part of the structure of any other thing?

As opposed to, say, a house.

Is the "other" vegetable hay?

A hay stack?

[Dujon] Wooden percentage mainly bark? It can be, but doesn't have to be.
[Quendalon] Part of structure of non-house? NO
[Irouléguy] Hay involved? NO
[Software] A haystack? NO

A log cabin?

[Kim] A log cabin? NO

Do you own one?

[GIII] Do I own one? NO

Could one see this in a pub?

Even if not in your revered establishment, my Lord. (Dujon) Will that do?

Related to animals?

[Rosie] Could it be seen in a pub? YES, but not all pubs.
[Quendalon] Related to animals? NO

A pool table?

[Chalky] A pool table? NO - I think that would be less than 99% vegetable.

A skittle alley?

[Software] Skittle Alley? NO - I think that would be bigger than a washing machine-sized toaster

IrecogniseacuewhenIseeonéguy

Correction to previous answer I was only asked if it was bigger than the toaster in at least one dimension, to which I replied YES. No-one has yet established in how many (or indeed which) dimensions the item is bigger than a toaster (or washing machine).

Is it longer than a toaster?

ImNotonetomissoutonthateitherJohn

Is it longer than a toaster standing on its end?

[IRG] Longer than a toaster? YES
[INJ] Longer than a toaster on end? YES

Typically painted?

I've got the image of something shaped like a door or a kitchen worktop.

Latchingontothesizechalkyclue

Is the wood from a specific type of tree?

Is this a regular shape or is it a bit wigglyish??

[INJ] Painted? Strictly speaking, NO.
[Quendalon] Specific tree? NO
[Chalky] Regular shape? YES

Is it a cuboid (tall, long, not very thick)?

[IRG] Cuboid? YES, but not as you've defined. Here's a clue, as I'm going on holiday on Saturday for a fortnight. Wide, long and not very tall.

A doormat?

[Software] Doormat? NO *Some encouraged applause*

Typically varnished or similarly treated?

[CdM] Typically varnished? NO (although I did have to do some reading to check)

Are there typically pictures of any kind on it?

[Quendalon] Typically pictures on it? NO

A floor covering of some sort?

[Irouléguy] A floor covering? YES *rapturous applause and whoops of delirious delight from the audience*

Stair carpet

or something like that, such as a hall runner?

[Software] Stair carpet? NO *audience believes they may get to cheer today*

Laminate flooring?

[GIII] Laminate flooring? NO *ooohs and aaahs*

Fitted wood flooring?

[IRG] Fitted wood flooring? NO
May I refer you all back to "Shredded wood combined with something else and moulded got a YES, but it's not perfectly accurate. It also got some applause." I think that's slightly helpful without giving it away. Note also that I have had to do some research in order to answer a couple of questions.

Cork flooring?

[IRG] Cork flooring? NO - the wood ingredient can be bark (which is what cork is), but doesn't have to be. Also, less than 90% of the total comes from wood.

Coconut matting?

Getting desperate

Chalky who doesn't look like what she's named after

[Software] Coconut matting? NO
OK, here comes a major clue. Things don't always look like what they're made of.

Vinyl floor?

Linoleum?

[Chalky] Vinyl floor? I'm afraid not.
[Cdm} Linoleum? YES, dagnammit, YES!
It's made of powdered wood or bark, linseed oil, canvas or burlap (both of which are vegetable), with some pigments (hence the traces of mineral). And in 13 hours' time I go on holiday for 2 weeks. ttfn!

Well, I stood on the shoulders of giants that time. Excellent subject choice, and a very educational round. After Phil's clue I thought it had to be lino, but I needed to google to check because I realized I had no idea what it was made of. I'll be back later today to set a new clue.
[Phil] Have a good trip!

although I suppose maybe you could argue for a vegetable component as well

This one is ANIMAL and ABSTRACT.

An anarcho-syndicalist?

Making a welcome return.

Is the animal human?

CdM] Well guessed

A metaphorical character?

E.g. Essex Man etc

But does it begin with P...?

Anarcho-syndicalist? No.
Human? No.
Metaphorical? Yes, sort of. Character? No.

A well-known phrase or saying?

In a general sense does the animal part relate to a particular type of animal?

(e.g. cat, dog, cow)

It's a jungle out there

Well-known phrase or saying? I think the best answer is Yes.
Particular type of animal? Yes.

Does the animal display some particular characteristic such as the smile of the Cheshire Cat?

Remember, remember, the 5th of November

Particular characteristic? Yes (interpreting "characteristic" somewhat broadly).

Is the animal a mammal?

Particular gender?

A fish?

Begins with P?

Cat got your tongue? ;)

Is it a sleeping dog?

Interesting constellation of questions

Mammal? No.
Particular gender? No.
A fish? Yes. *applause*
Begins with P? No.
Feline tongue entrapment? No (but my internets were broken for most of the day; sorry)
Sleeping dog? No.

A particular type of fish?

Under African Skies

Particular type of fish? Yes.

A red herring??

A red herring? Yes! One smoked baton passed to Néa.

Oh dear

It was the aproposes that did it.

Now for something MINERAL

Man-made?

metallic?

[Raak] Yes.
[INJ] Yes.

Unique?

[Néa] Are you sure that shouldn't be "apropi"?

[CdM] Yes. And yes. "Apropoi", possibly.

Art?

[GIII] Only in a limited sense of the word.

An architectural construction?

[Raak] Yes.

There is a small amount of VEGETABLE involved as well.

A tin roof?

A particular building?

Is/are metal(s) the only mineral element?

More than 200 years old?

Could you (or I) lift it?

The "wobbly" (or Millennium) bridge?

Kaknästornet?

:-)

You've been inquisitive while I was gone

[Software] Not a tin roof.
[Raak] Yes, a particular building.
[Graham III] There are some other mineral components as well, but again very small proportions.
[CdM] Not more than 200 years old.
[Rosie] You and I could not lift it together.
[INJ] Not the Cake Nose Tower!

In Europe?

A building that is open to the public?

[CdM] Yes.
[INJ] No.

In Sweden?

Less than fifty years old?

[Irouléguy] No.
[CdM] No.

[Irg] Sorry, I missed your previous question - it also isn't the Millennium bridge.

Is it more than 119 years old and less than 122 years old?

[CdM] No, it is not both of those things.

Is it in London?

[Raak] Not in London.

Is it in Italy?

[Kim] Nor in Italy.

Eiffel Tower?

Because [CdM]'s question confused me.

Would the small amount of vegitable be growing on the structure?

Is it a bridge?

[Q] Unless I have also confused myself, Néa's answer rules out the Eiffel Tower. (Her answer is semantically interesting, because it can be parsed in two distinct ways, but only one of them is sensible.)

[Q, CdM] No, it is not the Eiffel Tower. My reply to CdM meant that it is not between 119 and 122 years old.
[Software] There may be vegetables growing on it but that was not what I meant.

Is it less than 122 years old?

Progress at last!

[Irouléguy] Yes, yes it is.

The Forth (railway) Bridge?

Does it perform a specific function?

[Néa] You have missed out CdM's bridge question!

[CdM] Not a bridge.
[Rosie] No.
[Bigsmith] Yes.

Is it in England?

Is it a tower?

[Quendalon] No.
[Graham III] Yes.

Is its specific function to broadcast signals?

[Raak] Yes! (audience starting to prick up their ears)

Is it north of Paris?

Still in use?

Functional rather than decorative?

Not it's getting more difficult

[Irouléguy] Yes.
[INJ] As far as I have been able to tell, the answer is no.
[Rosie] Yes is probably the best answer, but it's not straightforward.

Is it on land?

[Kim] Yes.

Did it collapse in 1991?

A recap:

A mostly metal broadcasting tower in Europe, but not in England, Italy, or Paris, built at least 50 years ago but less than 119, still in use, not open to the public, not the Cake Nose Tower, more southerly than Paris.

The original Radio Luxemburg transmitter?

Raak] More northerly than Paris.

Resisting the temptation to get another question in

[Raak] Probably not still in use.

[Graham III] No, it didn't.
[Irg] Not the original Radio Luxemburg transmitter.

Is it in Scandinavia?

[Raak] No.

Is it in Western Europe?

(i.e. one of Germany, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, The Netherlands and outlying islands)

Being negative today, me

[Graham III] No.

Anything to do with astronomy?

An early warning system?

On an island?

More negativity

[Rosie] No.
[Software] No.
[Quendalon] No.

Is it in a country that used to be in the USSR?

(ie one of Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Russia)

[Irouléguy] Yes!

Is it named after its designer?

cheeky, but...

[Irg] It is indeed.

Is it a hyperboloid structure?

going for the hat-trick...

He knows, really

[Irg] Yes!!

Is it more than 86 years old and less than 89 years old?

It's so tempting...

*rolls eyes (own)*

[CdM] Yes.

[Irouléguy, CdM] Stop grandstanding before I name the bloody thing myself. :-D

Does it share one of its names with an underground station?

CdM, Quendalon] Not grandstanding, but teeing you up - I'm away at the weekend,so for once I don't want to take the baton. This is fun, though...

It's in the CCCP, innit

[Irg] Er. None that I know of, but there are many underground systems with stations whose names I'm ignorant of. Unless you mean its name in English translation, in which case the answer is Yes.

Oh, all right then...
Is it the Shukhov Tower in Moscow?

And about time, too

[CdM] Of course. The hyperboloid baton returned to CdM.

Gah

[Irouléguy] I'm sorry - I didn't remember that it's also called the Shabolovka. Which is of course also the name of a Moscow metro station.

Néa] No apologies necessary. I only learnt that yesterday from reading the Wiki page - and I should have said Metro rather than underground. It just amused me as an MC connection. Good topic!

Credit for the last obviously goes first to Irouléguy.

VEGETABLE and MINERAL. However, I will give an immediate clue that the vegetable element is much more fundamental than the mineral element.

Is the vegetable wood?

I just managed to restrain myself, since I'm on holiday from this weekend for the next 2 weeks.

And the mineral metal?

Does it begin with P?

Unique?

Man-made?

Wood? In part, yes
Metal? No (or to the extent there is any metal involved, it is highly tangential and inessential --even more tangential than the rest of the mineral component).
Begins with P? No.
Unique? Yes.
Man-made? Yes.

Is it more than 100 years old?

More than 100 years old? Both Yes and No are defensible answers.

One clarification. I said Yes to "man-made?", and that is the best answer. But No would also be defensible. There. That's clearer now, right?

Can it be seen from a mile away (without optical aid)?

Clearer? Clear as anything ever is with you, y'bugger. :-)

Is this a monument or other well known structure which was formed, sculpted or roughly shaped within the last 100 years and made out of a substance formed over a hundred years ago which could possibly include vegetable material but is probably made up of various metals (i.e. anything 'heavier' than hydrogen) and which is still extant?

A yes/no answer will suffice.

Can it be seen from a mile away? I am very tempted to say that yes and no are both defensible answers. However, I will say that the answer is No (almost certainly) unless you are talking about a mile away vertically, in which case the answer is Yes.
Is ... extant? Not exactly sure where you were going with that, but the best answer has to be No.

Is it in Europe?

And if you answer "yes and no" I shall weep.

Hampton Court Maze?

In Europe? Yes.
Hampton Court Maze? *The audience gasps collectively and bursts into sustained rapturous applause* No.

A maze somewhere in England?

A maze? Yes.
Somewhere in England? No.

Is the mineral water?

Water? No. For free, I will tell you that the mineral just refers to what is underfoot as part of this maze (that's why I said the vegetable element is much more fundamental). Most of the hard work has been done here; you just need to find out where this particular maze is.

Is this maze in a church or cathedral?

In a church or cathedral? No. (Visible from above, remember.)

A maze in the grounds of one?

In Wales?

Is it in Belgium?

In the grounds of a church or cathedral? No.
In Wales? No.
In Belgium? No.

North of Paris?

North of Paris? No.

In France?

Hellenic, like the hymn?

Hidden text

A maze in Greece?

Public Service Announcement: Do not reveal the message in the previous move. Just trust me, ok.
Grecian? No.

In England?

(and GIII asked "in France?")

Oops, and Rosie asked about England. How about, In Eastern Europe (i.e. the old Eastern Bloc)?

You are winding your way in towards the center

In France? No. (sorry)
In England? Still No.
In Eastern Europe? No.

Made within the last 200 years?

Is it, by any chance, in Italy?

Worried of Whitechapel

Dear Auntie CdM, I know I shuddent of done, but I cuddent resist clicking the "reveal" button like you tole me not to and now my sides av split. Wat can I do? Yours etc. Worried of Whitechapel.

Within last 200 years? Yes and No are both defensible. (See 100 years, above.)
In Italy? No.
Dear Worried. You can listen to me say, "I told you so".

The maze at Schönbrunn Palace?

The maze at Schönbrunn Palace? Yes!

"The Maze at Schönbrunn was laid out between 1698 and 1740... During the 19th century the Maze was gradually abandoned until in 1892 the last remaining hedges were felled. In autumn 1998 a new maze extending over 1.715 m with a viewing platform at its centre was laid out taking the historical model into account where possible."

*leaves the baton at the center for Raak to find*

By the way, I very nearly chose Hampton Court Maze, deciding only at the last minute to be a bit less Anglocentric. Had I stuck with that, Rosie's guess would have been one of the most impressive we have seen in the game to date.

(CdM) V kind! Unfortunately I know of no other mazes.

Left, left, right, right, straight on, over, under, back three squares, up a ladder, half-twist, strile, left, right, flamethrower.

The next is MINERAL (primarily) with an ANIMAL connection.

Man-made?

Does it comprise of more than one mineral?

is it a tool?

[Rosie] Man-made.
[Inkspot] Very likely more than one mineral.
[Software] Not a tool.

Is the mineral predominantly wood?

Doh! Sorry, is the material predominantly metal?

I don't know what's the matter with me these days. I must be getting old.

[Kim] Not predominantly metal.

Decorative?

other mineral is natural (as opposed to man-made)?

[CdM] Yes, one could say that it is decorative.
[Software] Natural, yes; in a state of nature, no.

Is the material mostly stone?

[I] Yes, mostly stone.

But is it art?

[S] Yes, it could be considered to be art.

Is it associated with one part of the world?

[I] It is associated with one part of the world.

Does it decorate the exterior of a building?

Unique?

The Sphinx?

Bigger than a phone box?

[Rosie] Does not decorate the exterior of a building.
[CdM] Unique.
[Software] Not the Sphinx.
[Projoy] Definitely bigger than a phone box.

Is the animal connection that it is manmade?

Is it in Europe?

[G III] It is manmade, but there is a more specific animal connection.
[I] It is in Europe.

A statue or sculpture?

[CdM] Not a statue or sculpture.

The bear pits of Berne?

[I] *Gasp of horror* "Not -- not the Dreaded Bear Pits of Berne!!!" No.

The Bullring, Brum? :o)

Is it a building?

Is the connected animal human?

[S] Not the Bullring.
[G III] It's a building.
[K] The animal is human.

Is the surname of the human one of the words on the card?

Is the building pre 1900?

[Kim] The human's surname is not on the card.
[Inkspot] It is pre-1900.

Is it north of Paris?

Is this going to become my signature question?

Was it built by an ancient culture?

In Eastern Europe (i.e. the old Eastern bloc)

(this is going to be my signature question)

Is it in England?

[I] After closely examining Google Maps, this is not north of Paris.
[G III] Not ancient.
[P] Not in Eastern Europe.
[R] Not in England.

In Austria?

[Software] a ripple of near-applause Not in Austria.

Switzerland?

[Kim] Not in Switzerland.

Germany?

[G III] Germany? Ja wohl!

A castle?

Scloss Neuschwanstein? The animal connection being the Schwan?

Cathedral Church of Our Lady, Munich?

[Néa] Applause!
[Projoy] Boos!
[irach] Cheering! Neuschwanstein it is. The animal connection I had in mind was Ludwig II.

Rats, I nearly just guessed that outright last night.

Okay….. This one is “ABSTRACT, WITH AN ANIMAL CONNECTION”

A work of art?

[Raak] Not a work of art.

The smile of the Cheshire cat?

[Rosie] No smile. No cat, Cheshire, or otherwise.

Is the animal in question human?

[Kim] Yes, the animal element is human.

A piece of music?

[Inkspot] Not a piece of music.

Does the name of the human appear in the answer?

[Rosie] Yes. The name of the person is in the answer.

Is it a unit of measurement?

[Inkspot] Not a unit of measurement.

Anything to do with the scientific world?

{Rosie] No scientific world connection.

Does this encompass art?

e.g. the [name of] school or style.

[Dujon] No, doesn't encompass art per se, except that the person named in the answer has been the subject of some works of art.

Royalty? (any country)

[Rosie] The person in question was not royalty, but did associate with royalty.

Was the person European?

[Irouléguy] The most pertinent answer is yes, the person was European.

Was the human a military person?

[Dujon] The person was a warrior, yes.

Beowulf?

Was the human alive before 1800?

Civis Romanum erat?

[CdM] Not Beowulf.
[Kim] If the person actually lived, it was before 1800 AD.
[Iroulëguy] No Civus Romanum erat.

A character from a fairy tale?

Male?

{Inkspot] Not acharacter from a "fairy tale".
[Nea] Yes, male.

Is is a character of myth or legend?

Is he a God?

[Kim] Yes, a caharacter in myth or legend.
[Inkspot] Not a God. A mortal, but with divine connections, nonetheless.

From Celtic myth and/or legend?

[Irouléguy] Not Celtic.

Scandinavian?

[Rosie] Not Scandinavian.

Someone like Rob Roy?

Greek?

[Software] Not Rob Roy.
[Kim] Yes, Greek.

Achilles' heel?

Sword of Damocles?

[Graham III] Not Sword of Damocles.
[Iroulëguy] ACHILLES' HEEL is it! Take it away.

WOO-HOO! I've cheered so much I feel like a Trojan -

Hidden text

hoarse

. OK, our next is ABSTRACT with ANIMAL and VEGETABLE connections.

...also involving MINERAL.

Any Biblical connection?

irach] Any Biblical connection? No

Is the animal connection larger than a humanly constructed toaster?

Vegetable connection trees?

CdM] Is the animal connection larger than a humanly constructed toaster? True pedantry offers a number of possible answers, but the useful answer is yes. Rosie] Vegetable connection trees? Noak.

Is the human construction (larger than a toaster) a building?

Software] Is the human construction (larger than a toaster) a building? Not a building, and it's not a human construction.

More precisely, it's not a physical construction, or a physical anything. 'Bigger than a toaster' refers to the animal connection, not the thing itself.

Is it something like 'on the horns of a dilema'?

Software] Is it something like 'on the horns of a dilema'? It's not entirely unlike, but it's nowhere close.

Is the answer a phrase, proverb etc?

Rosie] Is the answer a phrase, proverb etc? *applause, cheering, etc* Yes!

Is the animal connection human?

Is the phrase a kind of warning?

CdM] Is the animal connection human? Yes
Rosie] Is the phrase a kind of warning? No

A white elephant?

Though I struggle with the mineral.

Is the answer a proverb (pace Rosie)?

Software - A white elephant? No - the mineral is implied in the answer, but not named. And don't forget the vegetable.
Kim - Is the answer a proverb (pace Rosie)? Barking up the wrong tree.

Is the vegetaale a fruit?

Is it the Jolly Green Giant?

Inkspot - Is the vegetable a fruit? *applause mixed with laughter from the audience* Yes
Kim - Is it the Jolly Green Giant? No no no

The apple of one's eye?

(Irg) Kim wishes me peace.

Rosie] The apple of one's eye? No
Or he's trying to drink at the same speed as you...

Is the fruit a commonplace edible item?

(Irg) No chance, then. :-)

Rosie] Is the fruit a commonplace edible item? Yes

Is the fruit a citrus?

The Big Apple?

CdM] Is the fruit a citrus? The answer's not a lemon
irach] The Big Apple? NYet

The Garden of Eden?

Is the phrase in question also the title of a work of lliterature

Rosie] The Garden of Eden? Adam fine question - but no
irach] Is the phrase in question also the title of a work of literature? No

So angry I could crush a grape?

Is the answer the title of an artistic work?

Inkspot] So angry I could crush a grape? Ire think not
Kim] Is the answer the title of an artistic work? No

Is the fruit a berry?

The fruit of our labours?

Kim] Is the fruit a berry? *laughter, followed by earnest audience discussion* Probably, yes
Software - The fruit of our labours? No

A berry by name, but not by strict definition?

A blackberry?

** motions towards ear **

Is it green and goes up and down in a lift? A gooseberry?

Graham III] A berry by name, but not by strict definition? No - other way round (probably)
Software - A blackberry? No
Inkspot} Is it green and goes up and down in a lift? A gooseberry? Possibly, unlikely, and no.

Is it a berry within the botanical (as opposed to common) meaning of the word?

Kim] Is it a berry within the botanical (as opposed to common) meaning of the word? *applause* Yes (probably)
'Probably' because the exact meaning of the word on the card is ambiguous, but this is the most likely meaning.

Is the human connection one or more actual persons?

The phrase :"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou beside me?"

Kim] Is the human connection one or more actual persons? *much discussion in the audience* If actual=named, then yes.
irach - The phrase :"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou beside me?" And wilderness is paradise, e? no

Are the named persons fictional characters?

Kim] Are the named persons fictional characters? I refer the honourable gentleman to his previous question. Fictional - almost certainly (though I have seen one website that says the opposite).

Is the berry a grape?

Resisting the temptation to ask whether it is "Attack of the killer kumquats"

Graham III] Is the berry a grape? No

I say tomahto and you say tomayto?

Is the human element a collection of individuals (eg, a class, a group, etc)

ImNotJohn] I say tomahto and you say tomayto? *some applause* No, nay
Kim - Is the human element a collection of individuals (eg, a class, a group, etc) No

Yankee Doodle Dandy?

Is the answer a popular food product?

Software - Yankee Doodle Dandy? No sirree
Kim - Is the answer a popular food product? No - a food product is two of the words on the card, but it's not the answer

Heinz Baked Beans?

Graham III - Heinz Baked Beans? No

Is it a jam or marmalade?

irach] Is it a jam or marmalade? No

Is it ice cream?

A fruit milk shake?

Kim] Is it ice cream? Nein (ty), nein
irach - A fruit milk shake? No

Is the food product shown on the card normally sweet-tasting?

Kim] Is the food product shown on the card normally sweet-tasting? *applause* No

Is the berry an olive?

Popeye and Olive Oil?

CdM - Is the berry an olive? *some applause* No
irach - Popeye and Olive Oil? No

Is the fruit pickled?

irach] Is the fruit pickled? *the audience rise as one person, cheering* YES!

Can one find this on the supermarket shelf today?

Software] Can one find this on the supermarket shelf today? One can find products with the same name on supermarket shelves - whether they are exact product referred to is doubtful.

Is it an ethnic food from the East?

Is the answer in the form 'so-and-so's such-and-such'?

irach] Is it an ethnic food from the East? No
ImNotJohn] Is the answer in the form 'so-and-so's such-and-such'? *cries of 'oooh' from the audience* No, but not that far off - in two ways.

Actually, the audience should have applauded part of irach's question.

Does it involve mango?

irach] Does it involve mango? No mag

Does it involve citrus?

Phileas Fogg's gentleman's relish?

irach] Does it involve citrus? No, Mel
Software] Phileas Fogg's gentleman's relish? No

It's Friday, it's five o'clock, it's ~~Crackerjack!~~ time for a summary, I feel

The whole thing takes the form of something described by “a phrase, proverb, etc”, though it is not a proverb. It includes two words describing a food product, and the name(s) of one or more persons, who is/are almost certainly fictional. The human element is not a collection of persons.

The food is derived from a fruit. Although the exact meaning of the word on the card is ambiguous, the fruit in question is almost certainly a berry, botanically speaking. The fruit is not lemon, blackberry, gooseberry, grape, mango, tomato or olive (though the last two got some applause), and it is not normally sweet-tasting. It is a common-place edible item.

The food product is pickled (sale being the mineral implied in the answer). It is not Heinz baked beans, jam or marmalade, ice cream, or a fruit milk shake. You can find food products with the same name on supermarket shelves, though they are probably not the exact product referred to in the words on the card. It is not an ethnic food from the East, though part of that question garnered applause.

The phrase is not a kind of warning, or the title of a literary or artistic work. [Note – the phrase may have been used as a title, but that’s not where you know it from] The phrase is not: the apple of one’s eye; so angry I could crush a grape; the fruit of our labours; a loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou beside me; Popeye and Olive Oil; Yankee Doodle Dandy. The phrase does not take the form 'so-and-so's such-and-such', but that is close in two distinct ways.

This game is missing one of its usual players, who might well have got this by now, or at least posed a particularly pertinent question.

It is associated with Indian food?

A pound of....?

Peter piper's pickled pepper?

... Or rather, the entire phrase "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled pepper" ?

Begin with the letter P?

Capers?

Well, we've a worthy winner! The complete Peter Piper phrase it is - one pepper-flavoured baton handed over to irach.

The next is ABSTRACT WITH MINERAL AND PROBABLE VEGETABLE CONNECTIONS `

Is this a phrase?

[Software] Yes, a phrase.

Does this phrase relate to extraterrestial bodies - or body?

[Dujon] Totally terrestrial.

Is the mineral a liquid?

[irach] Not a liquid.

Is the mineral reference rock?

Old as the hills?

Shut up at the back there.

is the probable vegetable wood?

Is it culturally specific to English?

[Dujon] Not a rock.
[Rosie} Not "old as the hills".
[Iroulëguy] The probable vegetable is not wood
[ImNotJohn] the phrase was coined in English, but is not culturally specific.

Is the mineral combustible?

[Rosie] The mineral is non-combustible.

Could the phrase be construed as a "saying"?

[Software} Not a "saying", but a frequently used term.

Is the mineral component mainly metal?

Is the mineral metal?

[Inkspot],[Phil] The mineral IS metal.

I feel rather silly now - oops!

[Phil] Actually, that was a great and very relevant question from you -there is a difference in the material being mostly metal or being metal entirely.

Ferrous?

Or ferric.

[irach] Not ionic as in ferrous or ferric, but ferrum, yes.

Does "the phrase" refer to the strength or durability of the ferrous metal?

[irach] For the most part, yes. Actually the phrase or term also has/had a physical aspect to it; although it is generally used in an abstract sense.

A cast-iron case?

Does the word "iron" appear on the card?

[Rosie] Not a cast=iron case.
[CdM] It does indeed.

An iron will?

[Rosie] Not an iron will.

The iron curtain?

[Cdm] The "iron curtain" it is. Take it away.

A near lurker's victory there. Anyway, this one is ABSTRACT with ANIMAL connections.

Bach's 'Air on a G string'?

A classical thong? No.

Human animal?

Human Animals? Yes. The animal connections are human.

A human construct?

artistic connections?

Human construct? Yes (with a fairly broad definition of 'construct')
Artistic connections? There are some artistic connections, but they are tangential. The words on the card do not refer to something artistic.

Is it a phrase or saying?

Phrase or saying? Well, strictly speaking the words on the card do constitute a phrase, but it is not a saying or proverb or adage or aphorism or anything of that kind.

Does this relate to a particular human being?

Phew! That 'whoops!' button's really useful.

Anything to do with the law?

Any sporting connection?

A particular human being? Not a particular human being, but the animal connections are to particular individuals, Yes.
To do with the law? That's a tricky one. My first response was No, but on reflection a better answer might be Yes, absolutely!
Sporting connection? The least misleading answer is clearly No, though you can make a case for Yes.

Anything to do with the Olympic Games, current or otherwise?

Olympian? No. (Again, I can make a case for a very tangential Yes, but sport is not a fruitful line of enquiry.)

Are the particular individuals from a particular country or culture?

Does the phrase relate to a human activity?

From a particular country or culture? Yes. *applause*
Human activity? Yes, for a reasonably broad interpretation of "activity".

Connected to political activity?

Connected to political activity? Yes. *sustained applause*

The US Democratic convention?

British?

A legislature?

Denver Demfest '08? No.
British? No. *some muttering in the audience*
A legislature? No.

English?

A referendum?

Concerning the EU?

English? No.
A referendum? No. *some audience laughter*
EU-related? No.

Does this pertain to an African country's election process?

Is the country/culture in Europe?

African country's election process? No and No.
In Europe? Yes.

(I suppose that while my answer to African country was unequivocal, I should note that there is at least a tangential connection to "election process".)

A current news story?

A country or culture formerly part of the USSR?

A Dutch treat?

Current news? No.
USSR? No.
Dutch treat? No.

Does it involve a change in power in a country?

Gerrymandering?

Does it relate to a specific European country?

The French Revolution?

Does it involve a change in power in a country? No. *applause*
Gerrymandering? No.
Relate to a specific European country? Yes. (A case could be made for No, but it would be misleading.)
French revolution? No. *more applause*

Treaty of Versailles?

Treaty of Versailles? No. *audience sits in stony silence*

Anything to do with royalty?

A failed revolution/coup/uprising?

To do with royalty? No (except tangentially).
A failed revolution/coup/uprising? Yes! *sustained applause*

The Spanish Civil War?

Spanish Civil War? No.

Did it happen in Czechoslovakia (as was)?

Czequered past? No.

The Landing at Dunkirk?

Dunkirk Landing? No.

Was the uprising against a colonial power?

Involving Napoleon Bonaparte, 1812 and Russia?

Uprising against a colonial power? Yes.
Napoleonic? No.

The Black Hole of Calcutta?

Black Hole of Calcutta, Europe? No.

The Easter Rising, Dublin 1916?

Uprising of Gaul against Julius Caesar in 52 BC?

We have a winner! The words on the card were "The Easter Rising". *hands an orange and green baton to Irouléguy*

I agree with the mutterers when Rosie asked "British" and you said "No". Ireland was part of Britain in 1916, and remained so until 1920, IIRC. There are some that say Ireland is still part of Britain, but not "Great Britain", but I think that's a bit over(t)ly confrontational.

[Phil] Well, it all comes down to the meaning of Britain.

My preferred usage has always been to treat Britain and Great Britain as synonymous, referring (as a geographical term) to the island which makes up the bulk of England, Scotland and Wales, and more generally (and as a political term) to England + Scotland + Wales. Another view is that Britain (but not, I think, Great Britain) is synonymous with the UK; this seems to be your preferred usage. Wikipedia points me both to the Guardian style guide, which claims that "Britain is the official short form of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", and also points to a quote from a British government website that says "the term 'Britain' is used informally to mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" [my emphasis in both quotes].

So, having gone most of my life thinking I understood these demarcations perfectly, I'm now not sure. If anyone can point me to an official site which disambiguates "Britain" and "Great Britain" conclusively, I'd be grateful.

There is another subtlety (and here I am convinced, or almost), which is that "British" perhaps has a wider meaning than simply "pertaining to Britain". It is true, for example, that my passport of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland describes me as a British citizen. On the basis of that distinction, I would accept that perhaps I should have said "yes" to "British?" though I might still disagree with your claim that "Ireland was a part of Britain in 1916". In any case, I thought my answer together with the audience muttering was a sufficiently non-misleading response.

To follow up, here are two sites that both seem reasonably reliable and that, taken together, support the view that (i) "British" has a meaning that extends beyond Britain in the specific case of nationality, but that (ii) using "Britain" to refer to the UK is at best informal and at worst incorrect. Here, we read:

BRITAIN. The informal name for the United Kingdom.
BRITISH is the formal designation of the nationality of citizens of the United Kingdom, and of certain others.

Compare with the following from here.

The adjective "British" is, of course, used in relation to Great Britain but there is also a common tendency to use it when referring to issues relating to both Great Britain and the United Kingdom. This is inaccurate and from a legal point of view erroneous. [emphasis mine]

Sometimes, however, in legislation the term "British" is used to refer to the United Kingdom as a whole, especially in matters relating to the question of nationality.

I'm not sure I am much wiser.

[CdM] I must re-examine myself. I have never in the past confused the UK with GB. I can't understand why I posted that. Although the time-stamp might explain it :-)

Phil, CdM] From another angle, I thought CdM's answer was fine, in that the participants in the 1916 rising certainly didn't think of themselves as British.

At one point Wikipedia suggests that Britain might be used for the island alone, and Great Britain for England, Scotland & Wales (ie including the Isle of Wight, Anglesey and so on), but it doesn't give a source for this, and I'm not sure why anyone except geographers would need such a distinction.

Anyway, our next is ABSTRACT, containing ANIMAL and VEGETABLE with a small amount of MINERAL.

Animal human?

A balanced diet?

Rosie - Animal human? No
irach - A balanced diet? *applause* No

Is the answer related to a food item?

[Phil] But note from my first comment that the Guardian style guide supports your original objection.

A loaded coffin?

CdM - Is the answer related to a food item? Yes
Dujon - A loaded coffin? No

A type of sandwich?

A pie of some kind?

Part of a specialised diet?

irach] A type of sandwich? No
CdM] A pie of some kind? Ye-es
Rosie] Part of a specialised diet? *giggles from the audience* Possibly

Shepherd's Pie?

irach] Shepherd's Pie? No

A Cornish pasty?

Named after a person?

Rosie} A Cornish pasty? *applause* No
Graham III] Named after a person? No

Humble pie?

Named after a place or area?

Raak] Humble pie? No. The ABSTRACT was probably a mistake - this is edible
Rosie] Named after a place or area? *applause* Yes

Yorkshire pudding?

irach] Yorkshire pudding? Nay, lad

Devon cheesecake?

Bet that's wrong.

Is the place or area in UK?

Rosie] Devon cheesecake? You win the bet
CdM - Is the place or area in UK? *applause* Yes

Is this an edible item with a metaphorical meaning?

Is the animal element the meat of the animal?

CdM] Is this an edible item with a metaphorical meaning? Not really, no (it's not clear where the name comes from, but it's probably not a metaphor).
Graham III - Is the animal element the meat of the animal? Yes!

Is the animal a pig?

Is the animal named or directly implied (e.g., pork) by the words on the card?

The Dunmow Flitch?

Bigsmith] Is the animal a pig? Often (though not in all recipes)
CdM] Is the animal named or directly implied (e.g., pork) by the words on the card? *audience members of a certain age giggle* No
Raak] The Dunmow Flitch? No

Scotch egg?

That's wrong as well.

Rosie] Scotch egg? No

Welsh rarebit?

Thrashing around in the dark.

Melton Mowbray Pork Pie?

*hangs his head in shame*

Rosie - Welsh rarebit? No
Graham III - Melton Mowbray Pork Pie? No

Is pastry involved?

Or bread?

Rosie - Is pastry involved? Yes
Bigsmith - Or bread? No

The Fleet Street "Long pork" pies of Sweeney Todd?

Is it a dessert?

irach] The Fleet Street "Long pork" pies of Sweeney Todd? No - see Rosie's earlier question about the animal being human.
Rosie] Is it a dessert? *applause, followed by lengthy discussion* Yes and no (more accurately, no and yes)

Wakefield Pie?

(Pork and rhubarb - delicious!)

Is it sweet?

as opposed to savoury.

ImNotJohn - Wakefield Pie? No, I've not come across that - sounds great!
Graham III - Is it sweet? Partially
as opposed to savoury? No (ie it's both)

Is this essentially a Cornish pasty by some other name and location?

Sweet and sour eel pasty?

CdM] Is this essentially a Cornish pasty by some other name and location? Um, no - it has a distinct USP. It might well look like a Cornish pasty, though, and parts of it might well taste like one.
Raak - Sweet and sour eel pasty? Eww! No

Shropshire Fidget pie?

Just to clarify, I always understood the traditional Cornish pasty to contain two separate fillings: one meat-and-potato-based and one fruit-based. Is the USP that you refer to something other than this?

(A little googling reveals that although this form of the Cornish pasty is mentioned in many places, it is much less of a defining feature than I had thought.)

Iroul;éguy

Graham III - Shropshire Fidget pie? No
CdM] *applause* Yes, that is the USP. But I took your earlier question to mean a present-day Cornish pasty, which as far as I know is just a savoury.

A Bedfordshire Clanger?

wikipedia is my friend

CdM] A Bedfordshire Clanger? YES! Wikipedia is indeed your friend (where do you think I got it from?) One pork and raspberry baton handed over to CdM.

Never 'eard of it. Stupid. What's the point?

I'm with Rosie on that (though maybe not quite so forcefully). Sometimes you may have to do research to get the answer, but it shouldn't be 'pick one from a list at random'. I think the best answers are ones where, either the majority of players will have heard of it, or you're pleased to have had this thing drawn to your attention.

(INJ) Yeah, a bit "forceful" (as usual) but I was annoyed that I'd wasted time and thought with no chance whatever of hitting on the answer. The only Bedfordshire Clanger I can think of is the management of Luton Town FC.

This is obviously going to be one of those perennial debates here. There is room to disagree about where to draw the lines, but this is an online forum, which does make it different playing AVMA here rather than as a parlour game. I don't think there is any harm in subjects that require a bit of googling. As indeed this next one might for some people; I don't know.

MINERAL

(On reflection, this almost certainly has a significant VEGETABLE component as well.)

Is it fossilised?

Fossilised? No.

Used in construction?

Used in construction? No.

Is this a natural amalgam of its constituent materials?

Natural? In the sense in which I presume you mean the term, No.

Here is a clarification of the category that will hopefully make things nicely more muddled. :-)
The words on the card refer to something that can be reasonably interpreted relatively narrowly, or a bit more broadly. In both cases we are talking about something primarily mineral, and I can do no more than make educated guesses about the vegetable component. Under the narrow definition, my guess is that the vegetable component is present, but small. Under the broader definition, the vegetable component is surely more prominent, but the mineral component still clearly dominates.

(To be honest, you will probably make more progress if you ignore the vegetable component.)

Rossington Colliery Grade 2B Hards?

Bog standard food for steam locos.

Diesel substitute? No.

Is there only one of it?

Unique? Yes.

Is it fixed in a single location?

Fixed in a single location? Yes. *a smattering of applause*

Larger than a telephone box?

Larger than a telephone box? Yes.

Is the mineral metalic?

Metallic? There is some metal involved, but most of the mineral component is not metallic.

Is it a building?

A building? Yes. *applause*

Is it in Europe?

In Europe? Yes.

Is it in the UK?

Is it north of Paris? (oblig)

Thanks to CdM for his defence, and apologies to those who thought my last was a waste of time - I mostly agree with INJ's criteria and thought it fitted :(

A public building?

In the UK? No.
North of Paris? Yes.
Public building? No. *animated discussion in the audience, plus applause for the question*

Does the building house scientific activity?

Does the building house scientific activity? Yes.

Was it built before 1900?

Built before 1900? Yes.

Greenwich Observatory?

Greenwich Observatory? No.

Is it mostly made of concrete?

Mostly made of concrete? No.

Was it built before 1800?

Built before 1800? No.

Is it in a Scandanavian country?

Connected with astronomy?

In a Scandinavian country? No.
Connected with astronomy? No.

Is it part of a university?

Part of a university? No.

To do with botany?

Botanical? No.

Is it a museum?

Is it in a Francophone country?

Engineering?

Museum? No.
In a Francophone country? No.
Engineering? If you mean, "is it connected to engineering?" then the answer is "only tangentially".

Connected with power generation?

Connected with power generation? No.

The dog that didn't bark

Before you spend too much time on the current avenue of questioning, you might want to observe that there was a question where the audience was notable for its lack of reaction.

Was it Rosie's question about "scientific activity"?

Was it Rosie's question? Yes. (The building in question does house scientific activity, but that is not its primary function.)

Is it in the UK?

Is it a library?

Is it a museum?

In Germany?

[Rosie] Not in UK

Maritime/ocean connections?

In the UK? Still No. It is in a fixed location, remember. :-)
Library? No.
Museum? Still No.
In Germany? No.
Maritime/ocean connection? Yes.*applause*

A structure in the ocean rather than on land?

In the ocean rather than on land? No.

Is it in mainland Europe?

Would this be an aquarium?

Is it in Poland?

Had to get the letter "p" in there somewhere.

Is it in mainland Europe? No.
Would this be an aquarium? It would not.
Is it in Poland? Positively not.

This is fictional, isn't it?

Fictional? No. Not at all abstract. Very solidly mineral.

In Ireland?

In Ireland? No.

Cleopatra's Needle?

Is it surrounded by water?

Is it a lighthouse?

Eddystone lighthouse?

(as flerdle beat me to my next question by an hour)

Cleopatra's Needle? No. We've established (twice!) that it's not in the UK
Surrounded by water? No.
A lighthouse? Yes! *applause*
Eddystone Lighthouse? No. (Not in the UK, remember...)

Is it in a Nordic country?

Splitting hairs, but...

In a Nordic country? No.

In a Baltic country?

In a Baltic country? No.

Roter Sand lighthouse?

Roter Sand Lighthouse? No.

Is it in Iceland?

Splitting atoms...

Is it in Iceland? I am amazed it took this long for someone to ask!

No.

The Low Countries?

The Low Countries? No.

Is it in Russia?

In Russia? No.

In which case - was it built in 1818?

Was it built in 1818? Well, it was partly built in 1818, and partly prior to then, but ... *tumultuous applause*

Does it shine over an inland sea or lake?

Is it actually a double lighthouse?

In the Crown Dependencies?

The Casquets Lighthouse?

Shine over an inland sea? No.
A double lighthouse? There is a second light, yes. (Just answer it, Irouléguy!)
In the Crown Dependencies? Yes! *applause, mingled with cries of "What took you so long, Software?!"*
Casquets? No.

*grins*

Calf of Man, High and Low?

Calf of Man, High and Low? *applause* but ... No. (Maybe Irg had it wrong as well...)

Is it on or around Guernsey?

I was wrong - I thought it was Calf of Man too. And I'm probably away from my computer this weekend, which is why I'm avoiding taking the baton.

Corbiere lighthouse?

Corbiere? No.

Perhaps someone should ask the other pertinent question.

Is it currently in use?

Currently in use? Yes.
There is easily enough information now for anybody to get the answer with 15 seconds of googling.

Is it on the Isle of Man?

I don't have the time to set one either, but this has been great fun.

On the Isle of Man? Yes.

(*The two remaining members of the audience applaud half-heartedly*)

Is it by any chance the Point of Ayre Lighthouse?

Only because IRG & flerdle, who got to it before me, are too busy.

Point of Ayre?

Ha! Simulposted! Just what is the point of Ayre?

The Point of Ayre Lighthouse, Isle of Man, !UK, is indeed the answer. *hands red and white flashing baton to Phil*

I think this one will be quite quick, I think: ANIMAL

Denis Wise?

Human?

As opposed to Rosie's choice.

An individual?

[Rosie] The Poison Dwarf? NO
[Software] A human? NO
[Raak] An individual? YES (with a very, very, very nerdy trace of NO)

A pet?

[Rosie] A pet? YES *applause*

Lassie?

[CdM] Lassie? NO

Dick Whittington's cat?

[Rosie] DW's Cat? NO

Timmy?

[Dujon] Timmy? NO

Currently alive?

[CdM] Currently alive? NO

Greyfriars Bobby?

Scooby Dooby Doo?

[irach] Greyfriars Bobby? NO

Hidden text

incidentally, one of only two films to make my daughter cry

[Projoy] The world's most famous Great Dane? NO

A fictional character?

[Rosie] A fictional character? NO *applause for a good question*

The hamster allegedly consumed by Freddy Starr?

A mammal?

[Rosie] Freddie Starr's Hamster Jam? NO
[CdM} A mammal? YES

Canine?

[irach] Canine? YES *more applause*

Used to be on television?

Rin-Tin-Tin?

Lassie?

[Irouléguy] Used to be on TV? YES *quite a bit more applause*
[Software] & [Kim] I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but Rin-Tin-Tin & Lassie are fictional, so that's a NO to both questions. :-)

Petra (original and surreptitious replacement)?

Shep?

(a logical follow-up question)

[Kim] Petra? YES! Congrats!
I only read about the replacement last week, hence the nerdy "not an individual" answer to Raak's question earlier. Now I need some sleep, having worked about 60 hours in the last 4 days.

*Takes the baton in his mouth and buries it in the back garden*

OK, given the brouhaha over my last attempt to set a poser, I am going to stick this time with a fairly safe ANIMAL

A pair of hands?

[Irouléguy] Not as such.

Human?

[irach] Human? Yes.

Living?

[Rosie] Living? No.

Associated with music?

Male?

Fingers touching (or nearly so)?

European?

[irach] Associated with music? Yes. *Burst of loud applause*
[Rosie] Male? Yes.
[Dujon] Fingers touching? Eh? Please clarify.
[INJ] European? Yes.

A composer?

Mozart?

[Irg] Composer? Yes.
[irach] Which one?

Wolfie, for the love of God?

Leopold Mozart?

Amadeus Theophilus Gottleib

Franz Xaver Wolfgang Mozart?

If all else fails....

aka Kim

[Rosie, Projoy, Phil] Not Amadeus, Leopold, Franz Xaver, nor (to save anyone else the bother of trawling endlessly through Wiki) Maria Anne, Carl Bleedin' Philip Emmanuel, PDQ or any other Mozart. Sorry...

What about Irouléguy's suggestion?

[Projoy] What about reading before posting?

[Projoy] Fair cop.

A baroque composer?

[Projoy] Baroque? Technically, no.

German?

Pre-Baroque?

Handel?

(Kim) CPE and PDQ weren't Mozarten; they were Bach(whatever the plural is).

[irach] German? No.
[Projoy] Pre-baroque? Technically, yes.
[Rosie] Handel? No (and, yes, I knew that).

European?

[Projoy] I refer the Hon. Gent. to the answer I gave ImNotJohn yesterday.

Born in the C17th

Oh dear, my basic literacy skills don't seem to be up to much lately.

[Projoy] Mine neiver, that's why Im staying well away frm this one.

William Byrd?

[Projoy] 17th Century? No. That would make him/her Baroque era, I think.
[IRG] Byrd? No.

John Dowland?

Italian?

[Projoy] Dowland? No.
[Phil] Italian? No.

Tomas Luis Vittoria?

[Rosie] TLV? No.

British?

Wrote choral stuff?

[irach] British? Yes.
[Rosie] Choral "stuff"? Yes.
*The audience applauds both questions and anticipates a swift conclusion*

Thomas Tallis?

[Phil] Yes! Phil beats Rosie to the tape.
*Hands over baton to Phil and walks off whistling Glen Miller's "In The Dorian Mood"*

I would like to offer the baton to Irouléguy, or flerdle, who beat me to the lighthouse one, but were unable to spare the time at the time.

Out of town, out of my mind

I'll be away for a fortnight so not me, sorry.

As IRG has not shown up, I'll do what could be another quick one...

ANIMAL or VEGETABLE or MINERAL

The word "Thing"?

[irach] "thing"? NO

Fossil?

[irach] Fossil? NO

A horn?

[Dujon] A horn? NO

Clothing?

Was Dujon asking the right kind of question? That is, is do the word(s) on the card have three separate interpretations/meanings, one animal, one vegatable, and one mineral?

[Projoy] Clothing? NO
[CdM] Words on the card have three separate meanings, one of each type? NO - it's more that it's categorisation is undefined, but not abstract.

Is this a part of a living body (e.g. brain, liver and so on)?

[CdM] Thanks for your question.

[Dujon] Part of a living body? YES, but not in the way you meant from your examples.

Atoms?

[irach] Atoms? NO - *Much applause*

Molecules?

Sub-atomic particles?

Higgs' bosons?

Phil] Thanks for the offer.

[irach] Molecules? NO
[software] Sub-atomic particles? YES *Enthusiastic applause*
[IRG] Higgs' bosons? NO Expectant oohs and aahs

Gluons?

[INJ] Gluons? NO *audience eagerly awaits the right sub-atomic particle*

A quark?

How about a less esoteric "proton"?

Or just the familial 'hadron'?

[IRG] Three quarks for muster mark? 'Fraid not
[irach] Proton? Postively incorrect
[INJ] The humble hadron? YES, by Jiminy!
*hands over a baton made of, amongst other things, hadrons*

Slightly worried about what will happen when the hadrons in my hand collide with those in the baton.
Ah, we appear to be all right.
So let's try ABSTRACT with MINERAL connections

Rock of Ages?

[irach] - aged rock? - NO
*A few members of the audience exchange significant glances*

A statue that no longer exists?

[Phil] - Colossus of Rhodes, etc. - NO

A proverb, aphorism or saying?

[irach] - well-known phrase or saying? - NO

Between a rock and a hard place?

[Raak] - well-known phrase or saying about rocks and hard places? - NO

Title of a literary or theatrical work?

A site or construction of 'cultural significance'?

A flying start

[irach] - Title of a literary or theatrical work? - YES *Applause*
[Dujon] - building site? - NO

Written in the 20th century?

[CdM] - C20 - NO

Title of a book?

[Phil]- Book title? - NO

Play?

This may not take long

[Kim] - Play? - NO

Opera?

Poem?

Film title?

The jukebox musical "We Will Rock You" ?

Are mines involved?

Sorry - called away

[irach] - opera - NO
[Kim] - Poem - YES *Applause*
[Phil] - never heard of it, so - NO
[Raak] - the pits - NO

[irach] - not a film either

"Composed upon Westminster Bridge" by Wordsworth?

Does the mineral connection occur in the title?

Does something to do with rock or stone appear in the title?

Would this have a relationship to a peacock?

Just a matter of time

[irach] - The commuters' poem - NO
[Rosie] - Mineral connection in title - YES
[Phil] - Rock or Stone in title - NO *a few audience murmurs*
[Dujon] - Peacockery - Not to my knowledge

Is there a religious connection?

Does the mineral connection refer to something real (for example "Under Ben Bulben", rather than "The green eye of the little yellow god")?

Is the mineral component water as in "Sea Fever"

Written in C19th?

Does it have anything to do with Hay Fever?

[Kim] - religious connection? - Best answer is NO
CdM - is the mineral real? - Very tricky. I could argue for NO, given the examples you cite, but actually the real answer is 'I don't know (and AFAIK neither does anyone else), but I would guess it was YES'
[irach] - watery - NO
[Projoy] C19 - YES
[Kim] - hay fevery? - NO where did that come from?

Keats?

Alfred Lord Tennyson's poem , "The Holy Grail"

Ode on a Grecian Urn?

(shamelessly climbing on Projoy's shoulders)

*I can't stop myself* - [CdM] What's a Grecian Urn?

Truth is beauty

[CdM] Im sure it is not all ye know on earth, but it is all ye need to know to win this round.
Ode on a Grecian Urn it is.
([Phil] Neither can I) - About 10 drachmas a day
One baton passed on, despite the best efforts of Merlina Mercouri.

VEGETABLE with ANIMAL CONNECTIONS

Bird Seed?

Bird seed? No.

Welsh rabbit?

Is the animal connection part of the name or descriptor of the vegetable?

[INJ] I thought it might be Gray's Allergy.

Welsh rabbit? No.
Animal connection part of name or descriptor of vegetable? Yes. *applause*

horse chestnut?

[Kim] That's dreadful!

She stoops to conker? No.

Is the animal a mammal?

Mammal? Yes.

Swede?

Is the vegetable a fruit?

Swede? No.
Fruit? No.

Edible?

Is it processed?

Is the vegetable a grass?

Edible? Yes.
Processed? No.
A grass? No.

Is the vegetable a vegetable?

Is tha answer just the name of the vegetable?

is the animal human?

King Edwards?

Answer just the name of the vegetable? Yes.
Is the animal human? Yes.
King Edwards? King Edward's what? Oh, sorry, No.

Broccoli?

Is the vegetable a vegetable? No. (Sorry, I missed that earlier.)
Broccoli? No.

Is the vegetable a berry?

Is the vegetable a flower?

Is the vegetable a seed or grain?

Any other options?

Berry? No.
Flower? Yes. *applause*
Seed or grain? No. But there is a connection. *brief puzzled pause, followed by audience laughter*

A specific named varietal?

Not sure of my technical terms here - I mean are we looking for something like 'Rosa Alan Titchmarsh' rather than 'a tea rose'?

Dog Rose?

Queen Anne's Lace?

A specific named varietal? Yes. *applause* (But it isn't Rosa Titchmarsh, whoever she may be.)
Dog rose? No.
Purple clover, Queen Anne's Lace? No.

Female personna?

Is the animal a specific, named individual?

Female? Yes.
Specific named individual? Yes.

Is it a rose?

Rose? No.

Is it a cultivar (as opposed to a wildflower)?

Cultivar? Yes.

Flowering herb?

A rose?

A bulb flower?

Flowerin' 'erb? No.
Rose? Still no.
Bulb flower? No.

It is a flower whose type is often to be found in an English garden?

Nelly Moser?

In an English country garden? No.
Nelly Moser? No.

A female name?

Female name? Still yes.

Oops.. I. meant a female royal name?

Royal name? *brief pause for thought* Er, no. *audience laughter*

It is a flower whose type is often to be found on an English window-sill?

That is, would it be potted rather than growing in a flower-bed.

In an English country windowsill? No.

Is the female person's name integral to the name of the flower (eg, "Violet") as opposed to a variety of flower named after a specific individual?

Integral Name? No. INJ's Rosa Alan Titchmarsh is the exact form you are looking for: <flower><first name><last name>.

A tropical variety ?

Camellia Hari Withers?

Tropical? Largely topical, yes. *applause*
Parker-Bowles-Googie-Withers? No.

An aquatic plant?

Aquatic? No.

Er, in answer to irach's previous question, it is largely tropical. It is not particularly topical.

Native to the S.E. of the U.S.of A.?

Native to SEUSA? No. Which, um, you might have deduced from the fact that the SEUSA is not tropical...

Native to SE Asia?

Does it grow higher than a telephone box?

Native to SE Asia? Yes. (I could give a rather more detailed and pedantic answer, but I think Yes is the most helpful.)
Higher than a phone box? No.

A fragrant flower?

Fragrant? Hmmm... In general these flowers are often fragrant but I don't know for sure about this particular varietal.

In the orchid family?

An oleander variety?

In the orchid family? Yes. *applause*
oleander? No.

Masdevallia Celine Dion?

MCd? No.

Is the female person alive?

As this could take a long time...

Vanda Miss Joaquim?

Orchid Cyd (Charrisse) ?

Living? Yes.
Vanda Miss Joaquim? No, but *significant applause*
Orcyd? No.

Vanda Annette Jones?

Vanda Annette Jones? No. *significant silence*

Is it a 'National Flower'?

National flower? No. At least, that's not a description I would use... *laughter*

(I like this audience. It laughs at my jokes.)

(Perhaps the 'significant applause' to Miss Joaquim was too strong. Think of it more as applause that recognized a connection to the answer.)

N.B. We knew she was a national treasure, but it turns out that Linnea Borealis is also Sweden's national flower

Is it in the sub-family Apostasioideae?

~~Apostosio~~ ... ~~Apostasioioi~~ ... ~~Apastasio~~ ... what he said? No.

Dendrobium Imelda Marcos?

Must be a slipper orchid.

Dendrobium Imelda Marcos? No. *the audience greets INJ's joke with stony silence*

However, then *the audience applauds excitedly*. "Dendrobium" is indeed the first word on the card. And "Imelda Marcos"? No, but ... so very, very close. *guffaws of laughter from the audience*.

I hate to have to say this, but [INJ], your sources have deceived you - the twinflower is the province flower of one of Sweden's provinces, it's not a national flower. (Sweden doesn't have one.) It's quite pretty though :-)

Aranthera Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo?

Please ignore my earlier question. I cross-posted.

Dendrobium victoriae-reginae?

Is the named person connected with politics?

[Phil] Good grief, is she still alive?
[Néa] Sadly, you're right (of course), but it does appear as a factoid in quite a few places.

D'oh!

Does the first letter of the second word come in the second half of the alphabet?

AGMA? No.
DVR? No.
Connected with politics? Yes. *applause*,
First letter of second word in third half of the alphabet? No (nor in the second half).

Was it initially hybridised in Singapore?

Hybridised in Singapore? Yes. *applause*

Well, I've got 2 that match all the criteria (though there are probably more, since it seems to be the norm that important visitors are given a tour of the Orchid Gardens and then have the latest cultivar named after them). However, etiquette demands that someone else gets a go first....

[INJ] I don't know -- I think you asked the vast majority of the key questions in this round (identifying it as a specific named varietal, native to SE Asia, and as an orchid, for example), so I doubt if anyone would begrudge you victory. I'm surprised you found more than one, given all the audience reactions, although I haven't checked the list myself.

[CdM] I agree. I think that INJ should deliver the cut of grass and take the baton. I was persuaded by the audience reaction and your response to INJ's "Imelda Marcos" suggestion that the connection was the Phillipines.

Philippines? No. Don't listen to the audience; they are purposely being obscurantist.

Let's try Den. Kaneko Ikeda?

Thank goodness that it wasn't in the 2nd half of the alphabet, or I'd have been forced to try den. Margaret Thatcher!
If this is wrong then it's definitely someone else's turn

And then again.....

Ah, I've just realised that you could take the 'second word' question 2 ways - I was thinking about the second word of the name, not the second word on the card. If I have misapprehended, then please amend my answer as appropriate - especially as St Margaret is a 'better' answer.

Den. Margaret Thatcher it is! A delicate flower if ever there was one (and, yes, I puzzled over the meaning of "second word" too). *hands hybridized baton to INJ*

*ponders the matter of how confusing the term "second word" can be, given that one had just been informed of the correctness of the first word* The list of 1900 dendrobia did not include that one :-(

[Phil] Nothing wrong with your question, and I answered it correctly -- but I did have the same initial reaction as INJ. I think that, mentally, the first word was out of the way, and we were now concentrating on a two-word name, so it was easy to think of the second word in that delimited context.

(Or, possibly, it's some kind of genetic defect.)

I put it down to dipping in and out very quickly.
The next one is MINERAL with ANIMAL connections

The Old Man of Hoy?

[CdM] - A Hoy there? - NO

I'm pretty much in wall-to-wall meetings today, so may not get back to this until later. So here's a few answers in advance:
- NO
- Partly
Damn, I didn't think you'd ask that - YES

[INJ] Are you a carpet fitter by trade?

Is the animal human?

[INJ] Is dipping in and out a genetic defect too? *grins*

Mineral metallic?

Is it pig iron?

OK here we go

[Kim] - Carpet Fitter? - NO ;-)
[Phil] - Human? - NO (anticipated as first question)
[Software] - Metal? - NO (wrong question)
[Kim] - Rock Island Line cargo? - NO (you were obviously put off by Software getting it wrong)

Is the animal a bird?

[Néa] - a bird? - NO

Is the animal a mammal?

Rock lobster?

[Irach] - a mammal? - YES
[Phil] - Rocky Lobster Show - NO

A farm animal?

Is the subject a representation of said mammal?

[irach] - cowsheepchickenllama? - NO
[Dujon] - a representation? - NO (but *some applause*)

Tiger-eye (the gemstone)?

A natural feature?

Does it begin with P?

[irach] - Eye of the tiger? - NO
[Rosie] - Natural? - NO
[CdM] - P-led? - Damn, I didn't think you'd ask that - YES

Is it the animal component that begins with the letter "P"?

[irach] - Panimals? - NO

Unique?

[INJ] Is that because you thought I'd ask that, not CdM?

The "Pink Panther" gem of Clouseau infamy?

[Tuj] -Unique - YES (No, just because it hadn't been asked so much recently)
[irach] - La Panthère Rose? - NO

Smaller than a toaster?

[INJ] Ah. Well, I've not spent much time MCing lately =)

[Tuj] < Toaster - NO

Would this be a fossil?

A work of art?

[Dujon] - Fossil? - NO
[CdM] - Work of art? - NO is probably the most useful answer, though there will be dissenting voices

A work of architecture?

[CdM] - The Built Environment? - YES (I couldn't have made that much more obvious, could I?)
Oh, and *audience applause*

Is the animal feline?

Spooky

[Iroul] - with cat-like tread? - YES *considerable applause*

Is it a building with a feline link in the name?

Just to confirm

[Phil] - Is it a building with a feline link in the name? - it is a work of architecture with a feline link in its name

Is the work of architecture in the USA?

[Kim] - In USA? - NO

Is it zoomorphic?

Is the "cat" actually a puddy tat as opposed to, say, a lion?

A lion in Trafalgar Square

A few weeks ago, only one team out of eight in my pub quiz got the correct answer to "How many stone lions are there in Trafalgar Square?"

Hidden text

None, they are made of bronze

[GIII] - zoomorphic - NO
[Rosie] - Minimog? - NO *applause*
[Phil] - I knew the answer to that question, therefore I refer you to my answer to Software (OK then, - NO - to save you looking)

Sports connected?

Arts connected?

Is the work of architecture in England?

[Iroul] - Sporty? - NO
[Kim] - Arty? - NO
[Rosie] - Anglo-Saxony? - NO

The Pantheon

[Software] - Pantheon? - NO

Is it in Asia?

[Phil] - In Asia? - NO *audience remains interested*
BTW - as a clarification - the words on the card do begin with a 'P'. However, I would accept an answer that doesn't. Is that confusing enough?

In Australasia?

Is it a club?

[Phil] - OZ? - NO
[Kim] - clubbable? - NO

Is it on an island?

ie as opposed to a continent

[Iroul] - On an island? - NO
Don't read too much into the audience reaction - it would be helpful to find out where this is, but that's not the only line of approach.

In Europe?

[Rosie] - In Europe? - YES

In Spain?

Homing in

[Kim] In Spain - YES *audience applauds eagerly*

"El Gato de Botero" en Barcelona?

[irach] - Puss in Boots? - NO

Is it Moorish architecture?

Does the P stand for "Plaza"?

Worth waiting for

[Néa] Moorish? - YES *loud applause*
[Phil] - P-laza? - NO

Patio de los Leones?

It's the CdM and INJ show

[CdM] Claro que si
It is the Patio de los Leones, or Lion Courtyard, in the Alhambra in Granada.
*hands an exquisitely carved baton to CdM*

That was dangerously close to a lurker's victory. This next is I think best described as
ANIMAL
though some might make a case for ABSTRACT with ANIMAL connections.

A lion's share?

Lion's share? No. (For the record, that is much more definitely abstract than what is on the card.)

An animal product?

A breed of animal?

An expression?

Animal product? No (at least not in the sense that I presume you mean).
Breed of animal? No.
An expression? No. *some muttering and discussion in the audience, however*

The title of a work of art/literature/other stuff like that?

Is it something that is made from Animal?

A collective term?

Entitlement? No.
Made from animal? No.
Collective term? *audience goes "oooooh"* Yes, sort of. Or possibly No, not exactly.

Is the animal a particular species?

Is the animal human?

A particular species? No.
Human? I've been waiting for this question, yet I'm still not quite sure how to answer it. In a more narrow and literal sense, the best answer is probably No, but in a broader and/or figurative sense the answer is Yes, in some cases.

Does this relate to intelligence?

Related to intelligence? No. (There might sometimes be a connection with the figurative sense of the words on the card, but I think No is the best answer.)

Herd instinct?

Herd instinct? *a moment of surprised silence, followed by loud applause* No.

Does the answer on the card describe a type of behaviour?

A type of behavior? Yes (for a reasonably broad definition of behavior).

Is the behaviour aggressive?

Herd mentality?

A swarm?

Migration?

It being that time of year.

Aggressive? Not aggressive as such, but still *a smattering of applause*
Herd mentality? No.
A swarm? No, but * applause*
Migration? No, but *a little applause*

A stampede?

A stampede is correct! *throws the baton in Rosie's direction and runs out of the way as quickly as possible*

(CdM) Fear not. Now, where's Mandelson?

This next one is A N I M A L.

Non-human?

Non-human? No.

Alive?

A specific, named individual?

A specific named individual? - No. *mild audience amusement*
Alive? - Some are, some aren't.

A race?

nights

A nationality?

Holders of a particular office?

(Phil) Not a race. A race apart, some would say.
(nights) Not a nationality.
(Irouléguy) Not a holder of a particular office.

The words on the card are singular, preceded by the indefinite article.

A Corporation Sole?

(Kim) Er, wossat then? I don't think it's the answer.

The rich?

...being different from the rest of us.

A spin-doctor?

A pejorative description applied to a group?

A royal family?

(Irouléguy) No, not the rich.
(Softers) Spinner/Spinster? No, but *some audience murmurs of appreciation.*
(INJ) Not pejorative, but a group, yes.
(Graham III) Not the royals. *some mild audience laughter.*

The Government

A Governmental or political post or office?

A Corporation Sole is an entity in law comprising, at all times and from time to time, a single individual. It enables property to vest in the entity without having to be transferred each time the individual changes. Its helpful, for example, in ecclesiastical matters, where the property (churches, land, etc) subsisting in a particular diocese (eg, Chelmsford) vests in the Corporation Sole (eg, "The Diocesan Bishop of Chelmsford") rather than the particular individual who happens to hold that post at that moment (currently, The Rt Revd John Gladwin). Hope that helps.

(Phil) Not the government.
(Kim) Not a political office. Not an office at all, really.

Is this an occupation (e.g. Soldier, Sailor, Candlestick maker)?

Is one of the words on the card a collective noun?

Is this specific to a particular culture or country?

To do with the written word?

Is it related to a game or pastime?

Related to the military?

(Dujon) An occupation - YES
(CdM) Any collective nouns? NO.
(Irouléguy) Particular country or culture? No, but certainly more prevalent in some cultures.
(Softers) Written word? YES. *vigorous audience applause*
(Bigsmith) Game or pastime-related. Can be, but certainly not necessarily. *some scattered hesitant applause*
(Raak) Militarily related? NO.

Second thoughts

The audience could possibly have made a bit more of Bigsmith's question.

Connected with education?

Are there TWO words on the card in addition to the indefinite article?

(INJ) Connected with education? NO.
(Chalky) Two words plus indefinite article? YES.

Do either of the two words begin with P? :-)

A sci-fi writer?

(Chalky) Pinitial? - Psorry but NO.
(Phil) NO, not sci-fi.

A Poet Laureate?

(irach) The poet Laurie ate? NO. *cruel audience laughter*

A Weather Forecaster?

(Chalky) Not a forecaster. (See Softers' last question).

Are puzzles involved?

(Dujon) Puzzles? NO.

related to journalism?

A critic?

(INJ) Related to journalism? Strictly speaking no, but there is frequently a connection. *audience applause*
(Softers) Not a critic.

An author?

Related to the law?

A Movie (or Theatre) critic?

(Phil) Author? A case could be made out for YES. *applause*
(Kim) Not law-related.
(irach) Not any kind of critic. (see Softers' last question).

A sports writer?

A ghost writer?

(Softers) Could be, but not the words on the card.
(irach)_ A GHOST WRITER it is. Well done, as long as it's your own words. :-). Over to you; make it easy.

Okay, this one is ABSTRACT WITH MINERAL CONNECTIONS

Coal mining?

[Rosie] Not coal mining.

A human concept?

Neil Young's 'After the goldrush'?

Between a rock and a hard place?

[Software] Not as such.
[Irouleguy] No. [Bigsmith] No. (Smattering of audience attention)

Visible in nature?

[Kim] Figuratively, yes....

Ahem...

Begins with a P?

Is it a saying?

[Tuj] Ahem...Ahem... No.
[Graham III] Yes, a saying of sorts.

Does it involve a natural feature?

{Rosie] Not so much a natural feature as a natural object.

Is the mineral rock?

A gold mine?

Are precious metals involved?

[ImNotJohn] The mineral component is composed of rock, but not the word "rock" per se.
[Software] Not a gold mine.
[Kim] No precious metal.

A stone's throw?

[Software] You got it! Close enough and yes, cigar."Just a Stone's Throw Away" were the exact words on the card.

Linesperson

P

This round begins with a "P".

Perfect :)

Looks to me like it began with a T.

[CdM] Hmm, I think you're right. Maybe we should wait 'til it's penelope's turn to set one.

startingagain

Who? Me?

Well I never! I actually guessed it!!

Mmmm, bu**er! That means I'll have to think of something.

I know!

ABSTRACT with ANIMAL, MINERAL and VEGETABLE connections.

Anarcho-Syndicalist Recipe for Pot-roast?

One day, mark my words....!

Does it appear in the works of Douglas Adams?

A television series?

Does it start with a B?

[Tuj] ;-Q

Raak - No, but could easily have done so :o).
Tuj - No.
G III - B? No.

"The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe"?

Is it unique?

[GIII] Well, what face are you pulling there?

A human construct?

An imaginary planet from a science-fiction novel?

Tuj] I think it's 'tongue-in-cheek'.

irach: Nope.
Tuj: Well, yes and no. * audience mutters *
Rosie: Yes, absolutely.
Iro: No.

Is the answer the title of an artistic work?

I'm assuming that Anarcho-syndicalist watsit was off the mark....

Anything to do with the current banking crisis?

Kim: - That's a matter of opinion, but the least misleading answer is No.
Rosie: - Yes.

Is it a collaterised debt obligation?

A sub-prime mortgage?

Is it a financial vehicle?

Soft

G III: - A what? er No.
Raak: - No. * audience mutters *
IMJ: - Not a financial vehicle.

Is the vegetable connection paper?

A set of rules or protocols?

CdM: - Yes
Rosie: - No.

A legal document?

Is the word "money" in the answer?

Frozen pig belly futures?

Don't believe me?

Hmm, case of the disappearing web reference. Try Here

Dow Jones' Industrial Average

The Financial Times?

Raak: - Not a free lunch for a lawyer, No.
Tuj: - Not as such, No.* audience stirs *
G III: - Interesting, but No.
irach: - No. * audience nervous laughter *
Phil: - No.

Monetary policy?

Is a particular currency part of the answer?

The RPI?

Was it originally 3 pages long?

CdM: - No.
Irouléguy: - No.
Raak: - No.
G III: - No.

Payment in cash?

Was it something that the typical player of this game was likely to have given much thought to a month or more ago?

Rosie: - No. * audience chuckles *
CdM: - It's probably something that has been on many a morniverser's mind, so Yes.

"The stock market"?

Anything to do with pensions?

Is the answer an abbreviation?

Anything to do with mortgages?

Is Tuj an abbreviation?

Any chance that you might answer the questions by indicating which question you are referring to?

The credit crunch?

Do the paper and mineral connections refer to money?

irach: - No. * audience mutters *
Tuj: - No.
Kim: - Yes. * a few claps from the audience *
Chalky: - I didn't think there was any ambiguity.
Irouléguy: - Spot on! YES. Over to you!
CdM: - Close, but no cigar.

*steeples fingers* Ex-cellent! Smithers, throw another pauper on the fire.

OK, our next is ANIMAL or VEGETABLE or MINERAL, or possibly a combination thereof.

McDonald's Meal?

Michael Jackson?

irach] McDonald's Meal? No
Tuj] Michael Jackson? Nice one - but no

Human animal?

Is this one thing in three or more different versions?

Is it always the same size/shape?

Software - Human animal? No
Rosie - Is this one thing in three or more different versions? *murmurs of approval from the audience* Yes, though the versions part is a bit of a red herring.
Tuj - Is it always the same size/shape? *hum of discussion in the audience* Size, no; shape - umm, sort of.

Glue or Adhesive? It can be derived from animal, vegetable or mineral.

Would this be a carving?

I do not mean the head of the house at Sunday dinner.

Manufactured?

[Software] I think you may have misread my extremely awkwardly worded penultimate question in your round, but no matter. :-)

(or maybe not, I suppose -- I think that there was more credit crunch talk in the UK than in many other places following the Northern Rock failure...)

# irach] Glue or Adhesive? It can be derived from animal, vegetable or mineral. *applause* No, though glue or another adhesive could well be involved.
Dujon - Would this be a carving? No
CdM] Manufactured? Yes (though not necessarily machine-made)
CdM] I think you're right the second time - my guess was a response to yours and Rosie's questions together, so Softers' answer worked.

Can one make one of these things oneself?

Rosie] Can one make one of these things oneself? *applause* Yes

Is it a one-word answer?

Tuj] Is it a one-word answer? One word plus an indefinite article

Have you made one of these things?

Is it decorative rather than functional?

CdM] Have you made one of these things? Yes, though not very well.
Rosie - Is it decorative rather than functional? No - the other way round.

Hint - sometimes it's plural rather than singular.

Is the animal connection in the form of a material, like leather?

Is it an item of clothing?

Software - Is the animal connection in the form of a material, like leather? * loud applause* Yes
Kim - Is it an item of clothing? *muted applause* No

Is it an item of footwear?

A bag or similar functional container?

Kim - Is it an item of footwear? No
irach - A bag or similar functional container? No

A belt?

Is the animal material actually leather?

irach - A belt? Yes
Rosie - Is the animal material actually leather? It could be, but not necessarily.

An item of national dress?

Graham III - An item of national dress? No

Suspenders?

irach - Suspenders? No

Is this an article into which an object (or objects) are inserted?

I am thinking here about tool belts, bandoliers, holsters and their ilk.

Dujon] Is this an article into which an object (or objects) are inserted?
Interesting guess, but no. Some of those things might have one (or more) of these, though.

Hint the second - it's not any type of undergarment.

A watch strap?

Would it normally be worn by a person?

(Rather than an animal)

Software - A watch strap? No
ImNotJohn - Would it normally be worn by a person? Person rather than an animal, yes - but it's not 'worn' as such.

Is it associated with a particular profession?

Graham III] Is it associated with a particular profession? No

A buckle or similar fastener?

Garters?

A dog tag?

Fanny Pack? Bum Bag?

CdM] A buckle or similar fastener? *some applause* No
Rosie] Garters? No
Software] A dog tag? No
irach] Fanny Pack? Bum Bag? Nono

A safety harness?

A seat belt?

Rosie - A safety harness? An interesting guess, but no
irach - A seat belt? Hardly

A bandolier?

A noose?

Is its primary function to attach something to some other thing (for a broad definition of thing)?

Also, does it begin with P?

Phil]A bandolier? Er, no
Graham III - A noose? My word, no
CdM - Is its primary function to attach something to some other thing (for a broad definition of thing)? *applause* Attaching - yes, sort of. Something to something else - no.
CdM - Also, does it begin with P? No (though it was Tuj who gave me the idea).

Dog leash?

A knee pad?

irach] Dog leash? No
Software] A knee pad? No

As CdM is wont to say, examine your assumptions. There's one assumption in particular that is leading people in the wrong direction.

A pair of hand cuffs?

Or any other sort of bondage equipment?

Is it usually part of a larger item?

Oh dear.

A Conveyer belt?

Graham III] A pair of hand cuffs? No (vegetable hand-cuffs?)
Raak - Or any other sort of bondage equipment? No, perfectly SFW
Tuj - Is it usually part of a larger item? *applause* Yes, always
irach - A Conveyer belt? No

A collar?

they could be made of string? Not necessarily good hand-cuffs, but hand-cuffs all the same.

Graham III - A collar? No
Hand-cuffs] Touché

A dressing gown cord?

Is it elastic?

When you made this thing, did you also make the larger item?

I think it is INJ who is wont to want you to examine your assumptions.

Graham III] A dressing gown cord? No
ImNotJohn] Is it elastic? No (hypothetically, I suppose it could be)
CdM - When you made this thing, did you also make the larger item? *murmurs of 'Good question' from the audience* No. If you made the larger item, you would also make this (or these) in the process, but people will also make (or remake) this (or these) having bought (or otherwise acquired) the larger item.

Apologies for any false attribution - it's good advice, whoever said it.

Is it decorative?

Graham III - Is it decorative? It can be, but it's primarily functional.

A saddle?

Is it used to carry something?

OK – let’s try to see what we know:
It is a belt but it is not worn as such and is not an item of clothing. It is a part of a larger whole, but can be made separately (a replaceable part?) It may be made of A, V or M and is always ‘sort of’ the same shape although the size can vary. If Animal this could be leather. Manufactured although not necessarily by machine. Irg has made one. It is functional rather than decorative. It has some 'sort of' connection with 'attaching' but not of one thing to another (still slightly confused by that). The answer is one word plus the indefinite article, but this could exist in the plural. It is not normally elastic (although that is not impossible). It does not normally contain or hold other things (bandolier, tool belt)
It is not: a buckle or fastener (applause), garters, dog tag or leash, safety harness, seat belt, handcuffs or other bondage gear, a conveyor belt or a number of other things excluded by the things we know.

Is it a drive belt?

Raak] Is it a drive-belt? YES! (Specifically a fanbelt, but that's good enough).Apologies for the 'connecting one thing to another' answer, which I think was wrong now - I was trying to get at the idea of it being internal. And the answer to Dujon's tool-belts question was misleading, as I didn't read it properly. Not one of my better ones. One baton improvised from tights handed over to Raak.

That was unexpected. Hmm... MINERAL and ANIMAL, with ABSTRACT connections.

Is it manmade?

By the by, the answer "Would it normally be worn by a person? Person rather than an animal, yes - but it's not 'worn' as such." rather threw me. Did you mean "NO"?

[G III] Man-made? Something man-made is involved.

Is the mineral metal?

But is it art?

[Software] Partly metal.
[G III] Not art.

Is the animal portion canine?

An everyday object?

Begins with a P?

[Irouléguy] Can I ask about the "it was Tuj who gave me the idea"?

[irach] Not canine.
[Rosie] Not an everyday object. Not in the sense you mean, that is. *laughter*
[Tuj] Yes! It does indeed begin with a P! Is that a first?

P-research

[Raak] No, it is a seventh, though I have asked the question 59 times.
People who aren't me have an improved success rate of 3 out of 12.
Meanwhile Raak has asked if the word has ended in P, and CdM set the answer "the set of all words beginning with P".

Does this relate to time?

[Dujon] Relates to time? In a way.

Is the animal part living?

Are the abstract connections to a work of art?

[Tuj] Also related: around the same time I also set "A P" in the sense of the Associated Press, and "urine".

[Tuj] The animal part is living.
[CdM] Not related to a work of art.

A horse and cart?

[Rosie] Not a horse and cart.

A cage?

[Rosie] Not a cage.

"Pig in a poke" ?

[irach] Not a pig in a poke.

Is the animal a source of energy to be used as, for example, motive power?

[Rosie] The animal makes it happen? Yes.

A Pony and Trap?

[Software] Not a pony and trap. The "motive power" thing may be misleading.

Is it the animal part that begins with the "P"?

[irach] The animal part is not the part beginning with P.

A rat-race?

[Rosie] Not a rat-race.

Is there an agricultural connection?

[Kim] Nothing to do with agriculture. *snoring from the audience*

Is the animal a mammal?

[Rosie] The animal is a mammal.

Is the animal normally associated with human contact (e.g. pet or livestock)?

[G III] Not a pet, not livestock. Associated with human contact? Well...you're thinking on the wrong lines. Hint: a frequently asked question has not yet been asked.

Animal human?

Why the FAQ didn't I ask that earlier?

Is the abstract connection a metaphor?

Fictional?

[Rosie] At last! The animal is himan.
[CdM] The abstract connection is a metaphor.
[Tuj] Not fictional. (Knowledgeable members of the audience and those who have just googled it murmur.) Not intended as fictional.

Is it "Manpower"?

[Kim] Not "Manpower".

Related to the bible?

Is the mineral part a specific object?

[G III] Not related to the bible.
[Rosie] Yes, a specific mineral object.

Is the human currently living?

[Kim] Not applicable. Not a specific human.

"People Power"

Is the mineral object implied rather than specified?

[Rosie] Yes to both.

Is this a phrase?

[Tuj] It is a phrase.

Is the word that begins with P "Power"?

[irach, sorry I overlooked this] Not "People Power".
[Kim] P is not for "power".
Summary: the phrase describes a specified mineral object, an implied one, and some human activity, and the whole is also a metaphor. Not biblical, artistic, or any of the specific guesses so far. It begins with a P.

The Press?

[Rosie] Not The Press. The very first word of this begins with a P.

Is the animal human part a plural noun?

[irach] The animal human is not mentioned.

Is the mineral partly glass?

staniel

Platinum artist?

[CdM] No glass.
[staniel] Not a platinum artist. (Not an artistic thing.)
*the audience sign up for cryonic suspension*

Is the metaphor assoicated with human endeavour (eg, nose to the grindstone, shoulder to the wheel, that kind of thing)?

[Kim] Yes! Exactly that sort of thing!

Are the second and third letters U and T?

[CdM] Putting? No.

Is it also the title of a film?

First word a present participle?

Are the second and third letters U and L?

[Kim] Not the title of a film, according to IMDB. I think it ought to be, though. It would be rather a long one.
[Rosie] The first word is a present participle.
[Tuj] PULl the other one, it's got bells on.

Is there a mythical connection?

[Kim] No mything links.

Pulling your weight?

[Rosie] Not pulling your weight.

Are the second and third letters of the first word "U" and "S"?

[Kim] Pushy? No.

Any links to a game?

[INJ] Nothing to do with a game.

There are four words on the card.

I see my summary left out the information that this thing has a connection with time.

Painting the Forth bridge?

Aha!

[INJ] We have a winner! One bottomless bucket and a paintbrush handed over.

semi-lurking

I didn't think anyone would object, given how long this one has been going.
Rather more quickly, I hope, you will get to:
Abstract with Animal Connections - (Actually I could claim it as Abstract with Animal connections on 2 counts and Animal with Abstract connections on 1 - but don't let that confuse you)

Leaving now

Won't be looking at this until tomorrow morning now, I'm afraid.

Is the animal part human?

An activity?

[Kim] Human? - NO
[Rosie] Activity? - NO

An expression?

[Software] Expression? - NO

Is the animal of a species that exists in the world today?

IMNotJohn

Good question

[Kim] Animal species exists today? - NO (however, I am just a little wary of the exact form in which the question was asked)

Is the animal mythical?

[Raak] Mythical animal? - Hmm - NO, unless you mean 'is it fictional?', in which case, the answer is YES

A specific fictional animal?

(i.e., an individual animal like "White Fang")

Animal common in fantasy literature?

[CdM] Specific animal - YES
[G3] Common in Fantasy Literature? - NO

Begins with a P?

Does the animal appear predominantly in books?

[Tuj] THE question? - NO
[Kim] booky animal? - NO

From a children's movie?

[CdM] From children's film? - NO (and he claims he doesn't speak American)

Is the animal a human construction?

[Kim] Human Construction? - YES (in the sense that I think you mean)
Also YES in another sense *a few chuckles from the audience* and NO in a very obscure sense.
Confused enough now?

An animal bred for some purpose?

Is it an animal of legend (as distinct from myth)?

[G3] bred for some purpose? - NO
[Kim] Legend rather than myth? - NO - If anything the reverse, but neither is a good description

Is the animal a member of a real species (dog rather than hipporhinocecow, for example)

trying to hone in based on some previous answers...
And I never claimed any such thing. I speak American almost fluently.

[CdM] Member of real species? - YES

[CdM] "hone in"? **bang!!**

[Raak] ooops...

An animal of folklore?

[Raak] Although... maybe I was just demonstrating my command of fluent American for INJ. According to the M-W Dictionary of English Usage

The phrase [hone in] seems to have become established in American English, and is apparently beginning to be used in British English (Garner has a British example). If you use it, you should be aware that some people will think you have made a mistake.

Not surprisingly, the folks at Language Log have have also discussed it quite a bit. One of the interesting things is that though the verb to home has been around a long time, home in and hone in are both recent coinages. None of which is meant as a serious defense in my particular case, by the way; had I noticed it, I would have certainly chosen home in in preference.

Not well-honed

[Kim] Folklore? - NO

Is this animal primarily known for some artistic representation of it?

[CdM] artiswtically represented - NO (except for fairly wide definitions of 'artistic' and 'representation')

Is it a species of animal, rather than a single example?

[Kim] Species? - The answer would technically be a species, but it is known by a single example

From an adult film?

Not an "adult" film, you understand. Just an adult film.

(We now know that this animal is fictional, but not from a book, children's film, or known from an artistic representation...)

Would the aminal/species be known conventionally as a "dinosaur"?

[CdM] Film for adults - NO
[Kim] Dino? - NO
So, by a process of elimination....

From a teenage film?

Is the animal the subject of a poem?

Building on CdM's summary, if I have this right, the individual animal has never actually existed but is a human construction, represented not in books or artistic representation (which I take to mean painting, drawing, sculpture, etc) and not in any film made for children, adults or teenagers but in some other artistic form; moreover, the species to which the animal belongs is a real species, but the species does not exist in the world today, nor is it what we would call a "dinosaur".

Trojan horse?

From TV?

At last

[Kim] Subject of poem? - NO *some chuckles in the audience*
[G3] Trojan Horse? - NO
[CdM] TV - YES *sighs of relief*
The summary is correct, except around the 'species' (and this is my fault). It's probably best to say that the genus is real and current, but this particular creature isn't. After all, it doesn't exist, so has never been classified, so I'm extrapolating here - is it a species or a sub-species - search me. However, I suspect that you would probably think of it as part of an existing species.

Is/was there a real animal or animals who played the part of this fictional animal on TV?

(e.g., Flipper the wonder horse, Lassie the bush kangaroo) (I'm assuming not, because otherwise I think INJ would have led with Animal rather than Abstract ... but INJ's original definition did seem to leave the door open for lots of things.)

Mister Ed?

Was it a TV cartoon?

Associated with a particular actor?

Is the TV show named after the animal?

[CdM] Real Animal played part? NO (or I certainly hope not)
[Phil] Mr Ed? - NO
[Raak] Cartoon? - NO
[Projoy] Particular actor? - NO, not as such *Some muttering in the audience*[Kim] Named after animal? - NO

Mr. Blobby?

Is the animal a puppet?

Was the audience muttering because a known actor voiced this character?

Is our elusive friend a puppet?

Whoops! Sorry, Kim.

I'm also going to request a clarification on the classification. Though you have classified this primarily as abstract, does (or did) it still have some physical (presumably vegetable or mineral) existence? (Although maybe that is just a very roundabout way of asking Kim's question for the third time!)

[Raak] Mr Blobby? - NO
[Kim] Puppet? - NO
[CdM] Voiced by well-known actor - NO
[Dujon] - still no
CdM - Some physical existence? - YES *some applause* (but the classification is still correct)

Was this animal played by an actor in costume?

Not a real animal, not a puppet, and not a cartoon. Not many possibilities left.

Was the animal invisible?

Do we take your earlier rejection of "cartoon" to include all forms of amination?

Is it a logo or mascot?

I am thinking along the lines of something like Pudsey the bear (though not him of course as he begins with P).

One of the Playschool toys?

Just as an observation, we have nothing indicating that this is a children's show, though I think we are all tending to assume that it is.

[CdM] Gorilla-suited? - N)
[Raak] Invisible? - NO
[Kim] animated? - NO (I don't split hairs in this game)
[Bigsmith] Logo/Mascot - NO
Playschool? - NO
[CdM] Good point, well made.

Pantomime horse?

Well this is proving harder than I had ever imagined

[Software] Panto pony? - NO (precluded by answer to CdM's previous question)

Not a real animal, not a puppet, not a costumed actor, not invisible, not a cartoon or other animation. We are obviously missing something here but I am drawing a blank.

Was this animal ever seen (in some form or another) by the TV viewers?

Avian?

getting warmer

[CdM] Was the animal seen? - YES (it will become clear)
[irach] birdy? - YES *relieved applause*

"Phoenix rising from the ashes"?

[irach] Phoenix? - NO

Did the animal have an individual name?

"Eagle eye"?

Did the TV show feature a representation of this bird (e.g., a picture) rather than the bird itself?

[Raak] Named? - NO *a few murmurs in the audience*
[irach] Eagle eye? - Never heard of it, so NO
[CdM] Representation? YES(ish), a picture? - NO
There are 3 words on the card, including the indefinite article.

Is this from a comedy show?

[CdM] comedy show? - YES Loud and relieved applause*

Is it visible during the show?

[Phil] Visible? - YES

A Liver Bird?

[CdM] Liver Bird - Good guess, but NO

Was this seen in a pet shop?

"Dead Parrot" a la Monty Python?

Close enough for jazz

I don't want to draw this out so I declare irach the winner! The answer on the card was A Norwegian Blue
[CdM] The category that had not been suggested was 'a prop/model'
(To explain the convoluted intro 'a Norwegian Blue' can also be an orienteering course or the nickname of the earliest fossil proto-psittacoid, which was found in Scandinavia.)
One baton totally bereft of life handed on to irach.

Simulposted with:

That must be it, though I am guessing that "A Norwegian Blue" are the actual words on the card. (That's irach's win, not mine, if correct.)

Well, that one was put to rest at last. The psittacoid in question pining for the fjords is now in birdie Valhalla.... The next one is ANIMAL with an ABSTRACT Connotation.

Human?

A single individual animal?

Is the answer a phrase?

[CdM] Non-human.
[IMJ] More than one.
[Rosie] Sort of a phrase.

Lemmings?

A single species of animal?

A team or pack?

[Tuj] Not lemmings.
[CdM] Not a single species.
[Rosie] A team of sorts, not a pack.

Domesticated animals?

Likely to be seen in the wild?

(in counterpoint to INJ)

[INJ] Not domesticated.
[CdM] Yes, and no.

Fictional?

Dickybirds?

Land animal?

[Tuj] Fictional in part.
[Rosie] Not dickybirds.
[Software] Yes. Land animal

Does it begin with P?

To business.

[Tuj] 'Pologies, but no "P" whatsover, in either the beginning, middle, or end.

The Circle of Life?

Ouch.

[Tuj] Not the circle of life.

An animal of which there are both domesticated and wild examples?

[Kim] Only wild or presumed wild.

Does the name of an animal (or several) appear on the card?

[INJ] Yes, the animals are named.

Indigenous to the UK?

"Wild? I was absolutely livid!"

Do they form an heraldic or symbolic group?

[Bigsmith] Not indigenous to the US individually, but togeter, yes, very British.

[INJ] Yes, they form a heraldic or symbolic group.

Lion and Unicorn?

[Software] The Lion and the Unicorn it is. The baton is passed

Bu**er! That means I'll have to think of something. Right, after 30 seconds deep thought here it is:

VEGETABLE with ANIMAL and ABSTRACT connections.

Terry Schiavo?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Is the vegetable wood?

I Can't Believe It's Not Bu**er!?

Smaller than a toaster?

[Raak] Yowzer!

[Raak] Terry? No
[INJ] Wood? Yes.
[CdM] er.. No.
[Tuj] Toaster? Difficult one, probably Yes.

Are the animal connections human?

Is there only one of these?

A board game?

[Raak] Human? Yes.
[Kim] Unique? No.
[Tuj] Boardo? No.

A tool?

Found in a kitchen?

Long and thin?

[INJ] tool? some may say so, but a sensible answer is probably No.
[irach] kitchen? some would say Yes.
[Rosie] phalic? No.

Edible?

Chopsticks?

*wonders about the short fat approximately toaster-sized chopsticks that irach eats with*

[CdM] edible? theoretically, Yes.
[irach] ching-chang-chew? No.

Part of a foodstuff that is not normally eaten? (eg fish bones)

[Rosie] Fishy? No.

A container of some kind?

Specific to a particular culture or country?

[Tuj] Container? No.
[CdM]Specific country/culture? No.

Serves a decorative purpose?

I'm struggling with the edible wood.

Heart of palm?

[INJ] Decorative? No.
[Raak]Swamp cabbage? Had to Google that! No.

Advent calendar?

About the size of a toaster in all three dimensions, two dimensions, or one?

Found in most homes?*

* for a definition of home based on the Western European model

[G III] Chocolatey date thing? No.
[irach] Toaster sized? In one dimension maybe. Yes.
[INJ] Domestic? Yes. (random claps from audience)

Used in the preparation or serving of food?

Is the abstract connection something to do with the arts?

[INJ] Jamie Oliverish? Nah.
[CdM] Arty-farty? No.

Associated with apparel?

[INJ] wear it? No.

Clue?

Is the abstract connection a phrase or saying?

Does it begin with a 'P'?

Sorry Tuj, but we can only wait so long for you.

[Tuj] Clue? OK. This is a give away: almost everyone has used one of these.
[CdM] Abstract? Not a phrase or saying as such, but a familiar term.
[INJ] P? Not in the answer itself. * audience murmurs.*

Paper of some sort?

Toilet paper?

[Chalks] Paper? Yes. *audience claps*
[GIII] Bog roll? No.

Advent Calendar?

ooops - CANCEL THAT

Box of Tissues

Newspaper?

[Chalks] Advent calendar? You wish! And not paper hankies either. No.
[irach] The fourth estate? No.

Paper Towels?

[irach] Towels? No. Hint: it is paper, approximately toaster sized in one dimension.

Is is typically written on, e..g. foolscap paper?

[irach] Written? Not by hand, but Yes. * audience claps * Foolscap? Are you a lawyer?

A Telephone Directory?

A fortune cookie?

[CdM] Directory? The exact words on the Card!!!

Well done and over to you!! I'm glad that its gone because I'm away from a computer for the next 5 days and there would have been a big gap!

That was unexpected

OK. I am going to designate this as ABSTRACT with ANIMAL connections, while acknowledging that many of you might have deemed this ANIMAL with ABSTRACT connections.

Begins with P?

Anubis?

Mythical?

A well-known phrase?

Pinitial? No.
Anubis? No, but *a tiny smattering of applause*
Mythical? No, but *some audience murmuring and consultation of dictionaries*
Well-known phrase? In a sense, yes, although that's not the best way to think of what you are looking for.

Fictional?

Fictional? In part, Yes; in part, No.

extinct?

Extinct? Er. I think the only reasonable answer is No.

Legendary?

Legendary? Yes, but *some audience murmuring and consultation of dictionaries*

A single, named creature?

Single, named creature? Yes. *applause*

An object of worship?

Object of worship? No (except perhaps in the exaggerated metaphorical sense)

An object of fear?

Object of fear? No.

In place of my rather convoluted introduction, it is probably better to describe this simply as ABSTRACT and ANIMAL.

But does it begin with P?

Pinitial? Still No.

Is its existence controversial?

Controversial existence? Not in the slightest. (I confirmed its existence a few days ago, as a matter of fact.)

Does it have a physical existence?

The MerLion?

Connected with a particular country?

[CdM] I'll believe you this time.

The answers to several of these questions differ depending on whether I am focusing on the abstract or animal component of the answer. My answers to date have been primarily directed at the abstract component (although I don't think any of them would be badly misleading when thought of as applying to the animal component as well.* With that in mind

Physical Existence? The abstract component has various physical manifestations (so I could also add MINERAL connections to the definition). As for the animal component, the best answer is probably No, (or perhaps Yes, of a sort), but had the question been phrased slightly differently I could have much more easily just answered Yes.
Connected with a particular country? Not exactly, but *applause*.
Merlion? No.

*Though I have never confirmed the existence of the animal component.

Does the animal represent in any way a particular human?

Particular human? The animal is a particular human, yes. *applause*

Is the human the holder of a certain position or title?

Connected with a particular religion?

Holder of position or title? Not exactly, but *applause*
Religious connection? No.

The Statue of Liberty?

Long shot.

Lady Liberty? Nope.

So is the animal fictional and the abstract nonfictional?

Fictional status of animal and abstract: The animal is non-fictional. The abstract is partly fictional and partly non-fictional.

Something like "Tom Thumb"?

Like Tom Thumb? Not at all. I would call that totally fictional.

Tom Thumb fictional? Perhaps not.

[Software] Ah. Well, that's what I get for taking Wikipedia as the last word on something. But, in any case, I think the answer is No.

{Software] By the way, I love the picture at top right in your link. "Tom Thumb's Waistcoat," it is labeled. But since there is nothing else in the picture to indicate scale, the waistcoat in question might just as easily be too big for Kobe Bryant....

Male?

Male? Yes.

This is proving harder than I expected, so I'll offer a clarification/clue with regard to the mythical/legendary questions. The answer on the card does not refer (in either the abstract or animal sense) to something mythical or legendary in a narrow, literal myth-or-fable sense of those terms. The answer (in both senses) is legendary in the broader celebrated-renowned sense of that term, and possibly even mythical in the very broad sense of that word ("idealized").

Is the human the holder of a particular record or accomplishment?

Holder of record or accomplishment? The human is known for certain accomplishments.

Dead?

Sporting accomplishments?

Dead? Yes.
Sporting? No.

A war leader?

A war leader? Sort of, yes. *applause*

Well, this is starting to get silly.

Did the human die within the last 100 years?

Alive sometime after1908? Yes.

Notorious rather than universally celebrated?

The Unknown Soldier?

Notorious? The human in question is perhaps not universally celebrated, but certainly "celebrated" is a better term than "notorious". The abstract sense is pretty much universally celebrated.
Unknown soldier? Hardly. *some laughter*

Born after 1908?

Born after 1908? The human in question was not born after 1908. The abstract sense cae into being after 1908 though.

Because you will probably have forgotten most of this when you resume this game in a post-Christmas alcoholic haze, here is a review.

The words on the card are sort of a well-known phrase that does not begin with P. The words have both an ANIMAL sense and an ABSTRACT sense. There is no controversy about the existence of either.

The ANIMAL sense is a particular male human, who was born before 1908 and died after 1908. He is known for certain non-sporting accomplishments and was sort of a war leader. He is celebrated rather than notorious, though not universally celebrated. He is legendary in the sense of being celebrated and renowned, and possibly mythical in the sense of being idealized, but he is not legendary or mythical in the more literal senses of those terms. He is not exactly connected to a particular country, but the question earned applause. He is not exactly the holder of a position or title, but that question also earned applause. He has no religious connection. He is not Anubis, the Merlion, Tom Thumb, Lady Liberty, or the Unknown Soldier.

The ABSTRACT sense came into being after 1908, and does have physical (mineral) manifestations. It is partly fictional and partly non-fictional, and it is likewise legendary in the broad senses of the words, but not in the narrow senses. I recently confirmed its existence.

T. E. Lawrence?

T.E. Lawrence? The human is T.E. Lawrence, yes. *sustained applause*. But, though this one is now clearly there for the taking, I cannot declare Raak the winner.

Come on, Raak, get a wriggle on. ;-)

Lawrence of Arabia?

Lawrence of Arabia is indeed the correct answer. One Aqabaton delivered from the Turks to Raak.

The next is ABSTRACT.

The Riemann ζ-function?

	_n=∞
Not	Σ	1/n^s
	ⁿ⁼¹

Cognitive dysfunction?

Could be regarded as a symptom of one.

"Happy New Year"?

Oh, and Happy New Year to all.

Not a happy new year.

A human characteristic?

E.g. numeracy :-)

Not a human characteristic.

An organisation?

Not an organisation.

Anything to do with religion?

According to Wikipedia, no connection with religion.

Christmas?

Not Christmas.

A well-known phrase or saying?

Not a phrase or saying. Well, there's a phrase on the card, of course, but the mystery object is what it refers to, not the words themselves.

Is the mystery object Animal?

No, it's ABSTRACT.

Connection with science or scientific endeavour?

No connection with sciency things.

A human construct?

'cos somebody had to ask it.

Yes, a human construct.

Does the mystery object instil fear?

Any connection with the arts?

[Rosie] (laughter) Does not instil fear.
[INJ] No connection with the arts.

Does the mystery object represent an achievement?

Is this a sporting accolade?

[Rosie] No, but there could be an achievement involved.
[Dujon] Not sporting.

Related to Politics?

[INJ] Not related to politics.

Is it an activity?

[Kim] Not in itself, but activity could be involved.

Does it normally involve more than one person?

[INJ] Generally involves just one person.

Could it be considered enjoyable?

Might or might not be enjoyable.

An attitude or state of mind?

Not an attitude or state of mind.

Scientific/technical connection?

No scientific/technical connection.

I expected this one to be really easy..

Related to humour?

Not related to humour.

Anything to do with employment?

Nothing to do with employment. (The audience devolve into cockroaches and scuttle away between the floorboards.)

Any connection to sleep?

Zzzzzz....

How about a hint?

Seasonal relevance

New Year Resolution?

I resolve to hand the baton over to Chalky!

Have we taken a resolution to terminate old games?

No, I don't think we have.

It's been slowing down recently - but I still look at it and try to contribute at least once a day when I'm able to get online (though I try not to ask successive questions). Maybe we need fewer ABSTRACTs in order to get the thing moving along. After all, it's not as if other games are flying along.

Chalky appears to be fairly abstract at the moment ;o)

I'm sure she's here in spirit.

Absent friends

I don't get the feeling we are going to see Chalky soon.

EEEK!

sorrysorry. Have been away for a few days - had completely forgotten I'd posted that. Thanks for your patience ....

Next one: ANIMAL/MINERAL/VEGETABLE with ABSTRACT connections

I should be around for mornings and evenings for a few days so pile 'em up ....

Life, the Universe and Everything?

Animal is human?

One step at a time ...

Is it manufactured?

Is it a place or geographical location?

Is it you?

Is it Animal AND Vegetable AND Mineral in one instance?

[INJ] Life etc? NO
[Softers] Animal a Human Beeng? NO
[Raak] Manufactured? mmmm ... erm ... sometimes.
[INJ] Place or Location? NO
[Kim] Moi? NON :-)
[Phil] AVM in one instance? Good question - YES, it can be, but then, can, as likely, not be.

Objects that bear a miracluous resemblance to Jesus/Mother Teresa/Tony Blair/etc.?

[Raak] Incredulous Looky-likes? NO - but I suppose one could discern a resemblance given a vivid imagination :)

Would the animal be mythical?

foody?

Sorry for delay

[Software] Mythical? NO
[CdM] foody-y? YES!

A dish?

Food, not ceramic

[INJ] A dish? NO - not a dish

Some sort of convenience snack?

Mmm, salted crisps cooked in lard....

Pork Scratchings?

[Raak] Salty snack? Yes - could be
[Software] Pig scabs? Yes - could be

[INJ] I have cast off my pedant's hat to amend my reply to your recent question: Yes - could be

Normally eaten in a pub?

[Rosie] Pub Grub? Yes - could be

Is the occasion on which it is eaten significant?

Cost under a quid? (£1 Sterling, whatever that's worth today?)

[Raak] Eaten on significant occasion? Yes - could be
[Bigsmith] Low Cost? Yes - could be

Food in general?

A generic description of a meal?

(like 'a square meal' or 'breakfast')

A Tasty Snack?

[Raak] Food in general? YES! *audience cheers because the Animal/Vegetable/Mineral boxes have been ticked*
[INJ] Generic description of a meal? Not exactly 'generic' - but you're heading in the right direction..
[Softers] Tasty Snack? Yes - could be

A snack?

The "Mediterranean Diet"?

[Rosie] A snack? Yes - could be
[Raak] The Mediterranean Diet? Yes - could be

It may be more useful if I change the definition to ANIMAL/MINERAL/VEGETABLE/ABSTRACT [rather than 'with Abstract connections']. We can discuss the rights and wrongs of such a move when this has been guessed :)

Is it to do with dieting in general?

Consumed at a single sitting?

(I know - 'Yes - could be')

[Kim] Dieting? NO *audience chuckles*
[INJ] Single sitting? Funny you should say that/ Yes - it could well be consumed at a single sitting :-)

Overeating?

Munchies?

[Raak] Overeating? Not exactly - but * the audience applauds your attempt to explore the Abstract nature of this little puzzle*
[irach] Munchies? well - having the Munchies certainly links neatly with the words on the card.

Brunch?

Does the card include the word "traditional"?

{Raak] Brunch? Yes - could be
[Dujon] The card does NOT include the word 'traditional'

Cocktail party?

Does it have to do with the enjoyment of good food, but not necessarily to excess?

Who ate all the pies?

[irach] Cocktail party? Yes - could be
[Kim] Non - excessive enjoyment of good food? Yes - could be
[Software] Who Ate The Pies? No - but *audience applauds another attempt to explore the Abstract element*

[Aside to Softers - Are you in Jersey or Guernsey? My memory fails me]

Eating in general?

[Raak] Eating in general? The AotC certainly suggests eating in general *< mode:clue > however, it isn't an action < /clue >*

A square meal?

[Chalky] Guernsey? Wash your mouth out!

[Software] A square meal? Yes - it could include one of those

What I (you? someone?) ate last night?

Entertaining in general?

[CdM] What we ate last night? Yes - it could include this
[Kim] Entertaining in general? Remember - The AotC is not an action. However, it IS entertaining :) <<<<< points to another clue

Finger foods?

Sierra Mike

A TV Dinner?

Food groups, nutrition triangles, or some such thing?

[irach] Finger foods? Yes - it could include these
[Sierra Mike] TV Dinner? Yes - it could include this
[CdM] Food groups, nutrition triangles, or such-like? OK - it could include these 'though such dour terminology sits uneasily with the AotC.

Hint: It may be helpful to approach this puzzle from the ABSTRACT angle as it's clear that the A/V/M part is 'food'.

Cookery programmes?

Junk food?

[Raak] Cookery progs? NO
[IruleOK] Junk? NO

Related to any grading system, e.g. Michelin stars?

A banquet?

[Raak] Michelins? NON
[Rosie] Banquet? NO

The negative replies only indicate that the guesses are not the Answer on the Card. How can something so tangible as food become an Abstract?

Fictional?

*applauds Raak*

[Raak] Fictional? Ooh - good question. YES - but I reply with some hesitation.

A work of fiction containing embedded recipes?

"Like Water for Chocolate", etc.

[Raak] fiction - embedded? NO

Food for Thought?

[Softers] Food for Thought? NO - but you and Raak are moving in the right direction.

Summary: The Animal/Vegetable/Mineral part is FOOD [any food in any guise]. The Abstract part originates from a work of fiction - but many things do! There is a key question that hasn't been asked yet. Oh - and it IS a well-known phrase or saying.

The Food of the Gods?

Does it begin with one of the letters A-O or Q-Z (inclusive)?

[Rosie] The Food of the Gods? NO - but *audience applauds with gusto!*
[CdM] At last! Not P? YES :)

The Staff of Life?

[Raak] The Staff of Life? Not the AotC, NO.

My response to Kim's question may provide a clue to the 'key question'

A Bun Fight?

getting desperate

[Softers] A Bun Fight? NO :)

Iron Chef?

The food of love / An aphrodisiac?

sneaking in two related guesses for the price of one.

Sierra Mike

Clarification please

AotC????????

[Raak] Iron Chef? [Who is this person?] NO
[CdM] Aphrodis/Lovin'food? NO
[Sierra Mike] Answer on the Card [as per the original ISIHAC game :)

There is still a key question that should bridge the gap between 'originates from a work of fiction' and the answer. There is an intermediate level. Please keep asking Abstract-type questions and forget about guessing random food-related phrases.

Supping with The Devil?

Use a long spoon, they say.

tum te tum te tum

[Rosie] Suppin with Devil? NO

Is the work of fiction (primarily) a book

i.e. best known as a book rather than say, the film of a book

Was the phrase coined in the 20th century?

[INJ] Book/Film? Good question. Originally a BOOK - which is very well-known by a very well-known author. The book has been adapted [I use the term deliberately] to make a FILM - which is well-known in a different way. The AotC comes from the FILM.
[Graham III] Coined in C20? Absolutely YES - the second half of the century.

*hints that the Book has been mentioned in 'Ex Libri Bardus'*

SIerra Mike

Wuthering Heights

In my own defense I Googled it before I asked.
AOTC Attack of the Clones (Star Wars Episode Two)
AOTC Australian Overseas Telecommunications Corporation
AotC Ark of the Covenant (gaming)
AOTC Ahead of the Curve
AotC Aspect of the Cheetah (gaming, World of Warcraft)
AOTC Associated Offices Technical Committee (UK)
AOTC Ahead of Time Crew (band)
AOTC Autodesk Official Training Courseware
A.O.T.C. - Association of Orthopaedic Technologists California
AOTC - Amarillo Obedience Training Club
AotC Army of the Cumberland
AOTC Atlantic OSHA Training Center
AOTC Administrative Office of the Trial Court
I also swept back in the game itself, though obviously not far enough.

The Naked Lunch?

Eats, Shoots and Leaves?

la la lala la la lala

[INJ] The Naked Lunch? NO
[Kim] Eats Stuff? NO *audience sighs and seeks alternative entertainment*

I might well have missed something or other in this rather drawn out seeking: Given that - is this (at least) something like 'Manna from Heaven' ?

[Duj] Manna from Heaven? Yes - it could be - but it's not the AotC

*attempting to entertain the audience*

In addition to the BOOK and the FILM there is also a STAGE production.

Food of the Gods?

[Softers] Food of the Gods? I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous reply to Rosie. ^^^^

...and while you're up there - you may spot all the clues I've been giving. [Where's Projoy when you need him?]

food, glorious food?

Damn! How did I miss that?

Answer, Glorious Answer!

At last dear CdM - the very Words on the Card *audience applauds, cheers and generally goes wild*

The SONG from the FILM and the STAGE production which is an adaptation of the BOOK. A well-known phrase all about FOOD which is very entertaining.
Thanks for letting me off the hook.
[INJ] shame on you :)

* hands over a stuffed baguette to CdM*

[Chalky] Please miss, can I have another?

[CdM] um ... only if I can guess yours :)

All right. This is ABSTRACT with ANIMAL and MINERAL connections.

Is the answer an Abstract Noun?

Abstract noun? No. The answer is a noun phrase that refers to something abstract.

A saying?

A Place?

A human construction?

Mineral metal?

Fictional?

A saying? No.
A place? No
Human construction? Yes.
Metal? No.
Fictional? Yes.

Would this abstractness be . . . well . . . revelationary?

revelationary? I'm really not sure I understand the question. But I can say that it would be useful to learn what kind of abstraction this is. Also, some claim that this abstraction is something some claim to be very revelatory or revelationary or something.

A book?

Book? No.

Anything to do with the internets?

Does it begin with P?

Internetty? No.
P-begun? No.

Science Fictiony?

Sciffy? No.

Mineral stone?

Mineral stone? Yes.

Related to the arts?

Arty? Yes, for a reasonably broad definition of "arts".

A statue?

Statue? No. (abstract, remember)

A pillar of some kind?

A monument?

Pillar? No. (abstract, remember)
Monument? No. (abstract, remember)

Between a Rock and a Hard Place?

ImotJohn

Is the animal connection human?

Hard rock? No.
Human animal? Yes.

Is it a painting?

A specific human?

e.g. The Iron Chancellor

Specific human? Yes, but be careful how you interpret that answer.

Err....is it a painting?

Oops

Repainting? No. (abstract, remember)

Sierra Mike

The Theory of Evolution?

Talking about an evolution? No.

Related to a craft?

Crafty? No.

The Man in the Moon?

Mr. Moonlight? No.

Is it a title (e.g president of blahland)?

Blob

Religiousy, faithy ?

Is the human a single named real person

(Now, how many questions is that?)

Lady? No.
Madonna? No.
Single named real person? Yes, yes, yes and no.

Perhaps I should punctuate that less ambiguously as: yes; yes; yes and no.

A fictionalised representation based on a real person?

A character in literature?

Fictionalised representation based on real person? Yes.
Based on a novel? No.

irach`

Political?

You say you'll change the constitution? No.

Is it associated wih a specific country?

Know where land? No.

I should qualify that last answer. It is probably associated with a particular country but I don't think those associations are particularly relevant or useful.

Kick Start

Give us a clue

A little help

It was getting lonely in this game without you; I thought you were all leaving. I've already peppered clues throughout my last few answers, being for the benefit of you all. Really, I thought you were all getting better at these, but now I don't think you are going to work it out for another fifteen years.

Softweare

John Bull?

Is 2024 significant?

Some connection with popular beat combo The Beatles?

John, Paul, George and Ringo

Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds?

Such a lovely audience

John Bull? Er, no.
Is 2024 significant? I dunno, Projoy. Will you still be sending me a valentine?
Beatly? The audience would applaud this preternatural leap of deductive logic, but they are all too distracted by something shiny.
LitSwD? Yes! Phil gets the psychedelic baton.

A hint of lurking, but I think I did ask a question earlier.

Let us proceed with ANIMAL

The obvious:

Human?

[Dujon] Human? YES

Male?

[Rosie] Male? YES

A male human. That reduces the chances so:

Is this a male human who lives or lived?

[Dujon] Extant or extinct? YES

Alive?

[Rosie] Alive? NO

Was he alive some time in the 20th century?

[Raak] Alive during 20th century? YES

A political figure?

[Rosie] Political figure? NO

Your answer to Rosie's and Raak's questions does indeed raise other buts and ifs:

Was this man a scientist?

[Dujon] A scientist? NO

A writer?

Alive in the year 2001?

[Software] A writer? NO
[CdM] Alive in 2001? NO

A celebrity?

[Software] A celebrity? Hmmmm....if you mean "a famous person" then YES. But if you mean someone who seeks fame then NO.

A performer of any kind?

Alive in 1900?

[Rosie] Performer? NO
[GIII] Alive in 1900? NO

Famous largely for a single thing (is a single event rather than a whole career)?

[CdM] Famous for a single event? NO

A novelist or playwright (either)?

[Rosie] Novelist/Playwright? Neither

Someone who became accidentally famous?

[Software] Became famous accidentally? Tricky...probably YES *some interest from an intelligent audience*

Someone who was naturally reclusive?

Is there a sporting connection?

An academic?

Corpuschristitrimble.

[GIII] Naturally reclusive? I think I'll go for YES, although there could be some debate on "naturally".
[CdM] Sporting? NO
[Rosie] Academic? NO

A songwriter?

A Nobel Laureate?

[Rosie] A songwriter? NO
[Dujon] A Nobel Laureate? NO

A public servant?

[Rosie] Public servant? NO

An actor?

[GIII] An actor? NO

Some who makes things?

[Rosie] Makes things? NO

Did he live to more than fifty years old?

[CdM] Lived > 50yrs? NO

A soldier?

Were cyanide and an apple involved in this man's death?

[Rosie] A soldier? NO
[Dujon] Cyanide and an apple? NO

I'm tempted to give a clue, but I don't think it's needed just yet.

Did he give his name to something known by people of all ages?

[Rosie] Gave his name to something? NO

Eddie "the Eagle" Edwards?

grasping at straws

Notorious?

[Software] The Eagle? NO (no sporting connection)
[CdM] Notorious? YES *hearty applause*

Did he disappear?

A serial killer?

Criminal?

[GIII] Disappear? NO
[CdM] Serial Killer? YES *Even heartier applause*
[Projoy] Criminal? YES

British?

Hannibal the Cannibal?

[GIII] British? NO
[irach] Hannibal? NO

Did this man 'operate' from a shack somewhere in the U.S. of A.?

Mack the Knife?

[Dujon] Various questions asked, but I'm guessing that what you want to know is that the person in question is from the USA.
[Rosie] Mack the Knife? NO, it's a real person, as previously established.

The Boston Strangler?

[Software] Boston Strangler? NO

This shouldn't really take long, now that we've established that it's a real American serial killer, who lived in died in under 50 years, some time between 1901 and 2000.
A curious aside: no-one was ever arrested, charged or convicted of the "Boston Strangler" murders, and criminal theorists now believe that more than one person was involved.

Thanks Phil. That narrows it down to a hundred or so.

Fried?

That should narrow it down considerably.

Son of Sam?

Aka David Berkowitz

[IS,P!] Fried? If you mean did he fry his victims, then NO. If you mean was he executed on the electric chair, then also NO.
[INJ] Son of Sam? NO

Died of natural causes?

[Phil] Bollocks. I was sure it was Ted Bundy.

[IS,P!] Natural causes? NO

Was this 'gentleman's' fate (read death) brought about by a fellow prison inmate?

[Dujon] Done in by a fellow lag? YES *Intense applause*

Jeffrey Dahmer?

who I looked up last night on google, and have since been regretting ever reading about.

[Projoy] J. Dahmer? CORRECT! I thought that would go quicker, as he was the first serial killer that sprung to my mind. Not a terribly nice chap, but I do find the US police's attitude to their inept, racist, homophobic officers rather disgraceful and distasteful. Anyway, I hand over a baton made of nothing ghastly, thankfully.

So, Jeffrey Dahmer, then. Not exactly a name on everyone's lips. What proportion of the people in this country have ever 'eard of the bugger? The square root of a mouse's ear'ole, at a generous estimate. What on earth is the point of all this? There are better things to do than ferret around websites looking for the name, amongs hundreds, of American serial killers. The answer should be in one's head, if the spirit of the original game is to be followed. This game is a waste of time.

Yes but

As often happens, I find myself broadly in agreement with Rosie’s viewpoint, though not with his way of expressing it or conclusion. I lose interest in this game the moment it becomes evident that I’m going to have to start searching the web for the answer. I know others take the view that doing so is not unreasonable given the fact that this is an online game, so I won’t stop playing. However, if I get in again, I won’t select answers that I wouldn’t expect a good proportion of participants to know about.
Having said all that, I had heard of Jeffrey Dahmer, although it was only passive knowledge and I doubt if I would ever have dragged the name up without googling.
Over to Projoy

[INJ/Rosie] I apologise. I thought Jeffrey Dahmer was as well known as, say, Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hindley, Harold Shipman et al. I didn't expect anyone to need to search the web to find the answer. It appears that I know a dangerously disproportionate amount about serial killers, and I did not intend that one to be so hard. My thought process was "Umm...what to do? I think I'll make it simple by just doing a person. Who shall I do? How about someone infamous rather than famous. Oh, I know...Jeffrey Dahmer." I even had a mental image of his photo in my head. Soz!

[Phil] You are obviously the person to have on one's pub quiz team - or are you the one who sets them?

Magnanimity

(Phil) A generous apology. The thing is that it is very frustrating, having scratched one's head throughout over what the answer could be, to find that you could never have got it in the first place. It's not as if I lack general knowledge, or was born, er, yesterday. On with the show, then.

Hm.

Well, I certainly had heard of Jeffrey Dahmer. I only resorted to google to get the fact about his being killed by another prisoner (which I didn't know). I certainly think of him as sufficiently infamous to be on the tip of people's tongues.

That said, I'm one of those who's happy to google and isn't disappointed to discover the answer was something I couldn't have guessed. For then I learn something new I did not know before and my life is just that bit brighter... and sometimes I still get to win the round despite only pretending to have known all along about the obscure answer. :-)

Anyway, my turn. This is something players may or may not have in mind already. ABSTRACT

Murder? ;-)

[Software] Both, actually - I write a quiz every week for the pub, so I tend to have a scant knowledge of a wide range of not terribly useful subjects.

Spring?

[Phil] And when dey met, it wuz... NO
[Rosie] Grass is riz? NO

To do with endings?

[Raak] Terminates here? NO

Homophobia?

Just a thought.

[Dujon] Filthy Prancing Shirtlifters? NO

A phrase or saying?

Connected with the arts?

[Phil] No apology required - my comment read as more critical than I intended. I was trying to agree with Rosie's general point rather than criticising your choice of subject, which may well have met my criteria for reasonableness. Casting my mind back, some of my subjects were probably not justifiable by those criteria anyway.

[Software] Linguistic trope? NO
[INJ] Artful? NO (only very tangentially and unhelpfully)

Scientific?

I know we keep having the same discussions over and over again in the morniverse. It may be one of its defining features. Still, this one is a more than a bit tiresome, because the discussion really is identical each time. Someone (usually Rosie, to be honest) complains that the chosen subject was unsuitable because they hadn't heard of it, and they conjecture that most others have not heard of it either. Someone else (often me, to be honest :-) ) observes that there is no requirement for this game to follow the "spirit of the original game", because this game is on the internets, where we have search engines. Can we just agree to disagree on this one, and accept that people have different standards for what makes a reasonable/good subject?

I'd add two points. First, I think Rosie may have actually misjudged Dahmer's notoriety. I certainly knew of him, and I suspect the majority here have heard of him as well (which probably says something good about Rosie and bad about the rest of us, come to think of it). Second, this is an international community, so I don't think the trivia of "this country" should be privileged: in the global scheme of things, I expect that Dahmer is much better known than Sutcliffe, Shipman or Hindley.

Specific to a single culture?

[CdM] Point taken - and I think my lack of knowledge about Dahmer probably reflects on me (I do tend to avoid that sort of story). That said; to me, googling to get the answer feels like cheating.

A human concept?

I'd never heard of him but I did Google-up 5 US serial killers wiped out in jail. I do, however, suspect that Shipman and Hindley are much better known this side of the pond.

[CdM] Scientific? IN BROAD TERMS
[INJ] Specific to a single culture? NO
[Software] A human concept? YES *some discontented muttering from epistemologists*

Mathematical?

[INJ] To be clear, if something can't be guessed with good questioning and a little googling, then I too would judge it a bad subject. I gave up on my experiment of using randomly generated topics from Wikipedia because they too often failed that test (an Estonian province comes to mind...).
[Software] Well, for some definitions of "this side" and "pond", yes. Very possibly not for my current definitions of those terms. Which was my point.

[CdM] Numbery? NO

Learning?

Could we please cease to comment on the previous challenge? Thanks.

Connectivity?

[Dujon] Learning? NO *a ripple of interest in the audience*
[Rosie] Connectivity? NO

Medical?

[Chalky] Medical? KIND OF *a couple of claps from the audience*

An idea?

[SW] An idea? YES, a sort of idea.

Related somehow to the discussions raised by the previous topic?

Sorry Dujon!

[Biggsy] Related to the Internet vs. Rosie's general knowledge, and which is better debate? Thankfully, NO.

Harry Hill

Hm. Rosie's General Knowledge and The Internet. They're both rather marvellous bases for games... but which is better? There's only one way to find out!

Something to do with mental processes?

[Rosie] Mental processes? YES! *applause*

Would this have a direct relationship to the lore of the Australian Aborigine?

Risk aversion?

[Dujon] Dreamtime? NO
[Rosie] Risk aversion? NO

Is the answer a term for the analysis of certain mental processes?

A Freudian slip?

Memory?

[Rosie] Term for Analysis? NO
[irach] Saying one thing but meaning a mother? NO
[Phil] Memory? YES! But that's not the whole answer *muchos applausos*

Genetic memory?

[Dujon] Twisted to fit? NO

Nostalgia?

Projoy, you know perfectly well that my stockings are always seamless or straight. ;-)

[Dujon] Nostalgia? CLOSE! *"ooooh" from audience, and collective intake of breath, causing momentary decompression and fainting spells*

Long-term memory?

[Phil] Long-term? NO a couple of applaus.

Collective memory?

[Software] Collective? NO.

Folk memory?

[CdM] Recollections of The Seekers? NO

Is this a one-word answer?

[Chalky] Monolexical? NO. The word "memory" is on the card with one other word + an article.

A Recovered Memory?

Distant memory?

...Should have read "A Distant Memory?

A false memory

IIRC

[Rosie] A recovered memory? NOT QUITE, but you're practically treading on its tail now.
[irach] Distant memory? NO.
[Software] A false memory? YES! That is the exact answer I started with on the card... or at least... I think it was.

You know, I could have sworn I put a line under that last move.

I find myself winning again. That's a bummer, now I'll have to think of something. Wait there, I'll be back in a jiffy.

[Projoy] I was awake all last night trying to remember the proper word for memory loss...I ended up with insomnia...

I am obviously completely out of kilter with you lot, having never heard of the phrase 'false memory'...
;-)

[Chalky] Don't worry, you're in kilter with me...I'd never heard of it before either. Actually, you might want to worry, on reflection.

[Phil] Not even in the phrase "false memory syndrome" (a frequently occuring concept in crime stories!)

I'm fairly sure I've heard of false memory....fairly sure....

I knew it at one time - or did I?

[Projoy] No. Not until I looked it up - I don't read much any more, alas :-(

Got it!

Abstract with Animal, Vegetable and Mineral connections.

"An Iron hand in a velvet glove"?

A religious icon of some sort or other?

Software, you really must realize that this is a family friendly site and that the word 'vegetable' should never have any less prominence than the words 'meat' and 'three'. I bet you hate Brussels sprouts, cabbage and cauliflower too. ;-)

Animal human?

(Duj) And so do I. I'd rather chew on a baby toad.

This game?

[Irach] Saw? NO
[Duj] Iconic? NO
[Rosie] Manly? YES
[Phil] Morniverse? NO

An invention?

Related to athletic pursuits?

[Rosie] I love vegies, Brussels Sprouts in particular.

[Rosie] Genius? NOish
[Duj] Humping? NO

An activity?

IT-related?

Including software.

[INJ] moving? NO
[Rosie] Me related? NO - audience mermers

Someone involved in the theoritcal construction of what we now know as a computer?

[Duj] Virtual Babbage? NO.

Does the animal lend its name to this?

Related to the Arts?

(defined as widely as you like)

Does what some animals do lend its name to this?

Does it begin with a P?

** Back from London conference **

[Rosie] Animal cracker? NO
[Duj] Beastly habits? In a loose kind of way, YES
[ISP] P? NO, not a one.

Is this a physical process?

[Rosie] A process? NO

[ISP] a slight update, there is actually a word beginning with P in the phrase

Is it a single specific mineral?

And my previous question as well please - (Arty?)

[INJ] Arty? NO; Specific mineral? NO

Would this be a mariner's term?

[Duj] A term? YES! but not a mariners

specific to a profession or trade?

[INJ] Trade or Profession oriented? Well, in a way, YES!

Would this be a verancular expression - such as 'taking the piss'?

[Duj] Mickey? NO. Hint: This is a 3 word phrase very much in the news at present.

Pigs might swim?

The Credit Crunch

Someone had to say it

[INJ] Cash shortage? NO. Not the words on the card but on the right track.

It's terribly, terribly quiet in here, Software. Perhaps all are awaiting the answer to my last?

[Duj] Swine fever? NO. [I've been on holiday :o)]

Popeye Eats Spinach?

This one was 'set' on 24th March - 7 flippin weeks ago!
[Softers] Bearing the above in mind - is your clue/hint still valid?

Is it related to the world financial situation?

[Chalks] Bluto? NO! (Welcome back, Chalky. Yes, it is still valid)
[INJ] Money, money, money? YES!

To do with MPs' expenses?

Simply gotta be.

sub-prime mortgages?

[Rosie] I think this clue pre-dates the breaking of that scandal.

[Rosie] Parliamentary rip-offs? NO. INJ has it in a nutshell, this game has been like the Mouse Trap.
[INJ] Toxic debt? NO. much less specific to the current times

Is the word "recession" on the card?

[Projoy]Lack of business confidence? NO.

To do with a healthy economy?

[Projoy] Boyancy? YES! actually can cut both ways but essentially correct

Inflation?

(it probably says something about my age that I associate inflation with economic health)

[Projoy] Bulging cost? YES Remember 3 words on the card !! have we made this a private game? ;o)

Any reference to bubbles?

Retail Price Index?

The housing boom?

Ding!

Passes the baton over to Chalks. Nice to see you back and in fine form!

[Softers] Thanks mate :-) Delighted and all that.
However, is this a poisoned chalice/baton I be picking up? I really don't want to set a new one unless I know for sure that all interested parties are going to play nicely and in a regular manner. [In otherwords: I'm not sure if I can sustain a chairpersonship for 9+ weeks - which is what you had to do]

Patience is a virtue ...

or so it's oft said. Just dive in the deep end and let it flow. I'm sure some people will play.