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AVMA Take 2
help
Yes, it's another round of that classic guessing game - Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, Abstract [or any combination thereof]. This effort - '03/'04 should address any queries, but then again, may just serve to confuse and baffle which some might say is the point of the game. Patience, integrity and a decent search engine may be useful ....
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Counting sheep jumping over a wooden stile/fence?
Is the animal alive, at least when it's being the thing on the card?
[irach] No (sheepishly).
[Raak] Depends which animal. No, the primary animal element is not alive when it's being the thing on the card. Yes, the animal connection is alive.
Is the non-ruminant mammal in question typically a predator of the ruminant one?
[irach] Yes, the non-ruminant animal often eats the ruminant animal.
Is the "non-ruminant" mammal that eats the ruminant mammal human?
Flogging a dead horse?
[irach] Yes! That non-ruminant mammal is human.
[Raak] No, not that common expression. Nor (hint) any other common expression.
Is the vegetable wood?
Is the human component a specific individual, or a class/group of person? [cfm] There is a little confusion here, because in the very start, in response to the first question you indicated the animal was not human. Did you change the original "words on the card" after capitulation?
[Raak] Yes. There is often a wood component.
[irach] The words on the card have not changed. The thing named on the card is not human. The animal connection noted from the beginning is human. Does that clarify?
No, not a specific individual nor a specific class or group of humans. However, in the sense that the humans are connected to the thing named on the card, they are involved in the same activity.
Is the vegetable paper?
[Raak]No. Paper is not involved. When there is a vegetable component, I believe it is safe to assume the vegetable is wood.
Is the the "primary animal element which is not alive when it's being the thing on the card" leather?
[irach] Yes, the element is leather. Simply stated :-)
A drum?
[Raak] No, not a drum. *a few rhythmic claps from the audience*
Some other sound-making instrument?
Tamborine?
[Raak] No. Not a sound making instrument.
[Software] No. Not a tambourine. *more claps and murmurs from the audience*
Is the leather stretched over a wooden frame?
Connected with dancing?
[Raak] No, the leather is not framed.
[Dujon] Yes, connected with dancing. *there is some dancing in the aisles*
Dancing shoes?
[Raak] No, that is not the answer. But yes, the thing named on the card could be characterized as a dancing shoe.
Surely not a leather clog, eee by gum?
[Software] No, not a leather clog.
Leather spats?
[irach] No, not spats. But you and Software and Raak might want to....er...you know....put your feet...wait...i mean...heads together.
Dancing spats?
Does the answer have another meaning which relates, for instance, to the movement of water?
Drum mallets?
[GL] No, not dancing spats.
[Dujon] No, there is no other meaning to the words on the card.
[Software] No, not drum mallets.
Here's what we know for sure -- that the words on the card represent an item made of leather and wood. The animal connection is human. The item(s) are connected with dancing and could even be characterized as dancing shoes. Drums and tambourines drew appreciative reactions from the audience. Do you think it might be helpful to explore some of the abstract connections?
Tap shoes?
Does the abstract term refer to a particular form of dancing, e.g. tap, flamenco, calypso?
[GL] No, not tap shoes.
[irach] Yes--although I am having a little bit of trouble with the word "refer" in your question. The abstract connection(s) call to mind a particular form of dancing, without naming it directly. The words on the card do so, as well.
Blue suede shoes?
[Raak] No. Not blue suede shoes. *audience applauds encouragingly*
Are the words on the card connected with a specific performance piece?
[Raak] No, they are not connected with a specific performance piece. However, they are connected with a specific style of performance piece.
Wooden heeled stiletto shoes for dancing tango?
Is the style specifically associated with one country?
Soft-shoe shuffle?
Reel shoes?
[irach] No, not that kind of shoe. But shoes for dancing is still a valid general concept.
I am not sure if this will be helpful but I think I should add a note that the words on the card name something that may also be constructed from synthetic materials.
[INJ] Yes. Originally, the style of performance piece was strongly associated with one country. Then performers in a second country made a very strong contribution and a second strong association was created.
[Chalky] No, not a soft shoe shuffle.
[Raak] No, not reel shoes.
Ballet shoes?
Bluegrass clog dancing?
[Chalky] No, not ballet shoes.
[irach] No, not bluegrass clog dancing or bluegrass clog dancing shoes. But you are getting warm geographically. :-)
South American?
[Raak] No, not South American.
Is the type of shoe in question generally (or exclusively) worn by a female dancer rather than a male one?
[irach] Yes, this particular style of footwear was far more likely to be worn by female dancers. I wouldn't swear to exclusively, though.
A form of dancing in the United States?
[irach] Yes, though not exclusively, the foremost association of the words on the card (and associated abstract concepts) is with the U.S.
Square dancing?
[Raak] No, not square dancing.
Can-can?
[irach] No-no, not the can-can (or can-can footwear.)
Flamenco dancing shoes?
Line Dancing?
[Software] No, not Flamenco dancing shoes. I think we covered that earlier.
[GL] No, not line dancing per se, though I believe there have been instances of this type of dance which involved lining up for a set of choreographed steps.
Here's a recap of what we presently know: the words on the card represent a type of footwear worn all but exclusively by women, while dancing in a particular way that is associated with another particular type of performance that is most closely associated with the United States but which also became associated with another country when performers from that country made a very strong contribution. Drums and tambourines drew favorable responses from the audience, which could suggest that what distinguishes the style of performance or dance is its rhythm or beat. You may also wish to consider that the kind of clothing worn on the foot is not always called a shoe. :-)
Footwear connected to belly dancing with drums and tambourines?
[irach] No, not related to belly-dancing.
Connected to salsa/mambo?
[irach] No, not connected to salsa, mambo, cha cha, tango or any other Latin-identified style.
(I'm getting the feeling that the words on the card never made it too far outside of the U.S.)
Related to any sort of African dancing?
[Raak] Yes. There is a strong African American influence/connection and I expect that influence traces back to Africa. *question engenders exuberant applause*
But definitely not clogs or taps?
I've googled this, and that's all I can find.
[Raak] No, not clogs or taps.
*Wonders, should I offer a few suggestions to the players? Is that how this works?*
Is the vegetable (often wood) connection previously referred to part of the footwear, or is it an entirely separate entity related to the words on the card?
[irach] The wood is not a separate thing; it is what the heel of the footwear often is or appears to made from.
I'll try "jazz dancing shoes" although the tambourine connection is rathe remote.
[irach] No, not jazz dancing shoes. The word "shoes" does not appear on the card at all.
pattens?
[Raak] No, not pattens. I had to look that one up; like the words on the card, they are not so much in fashion these days. Come to think, it might help to keep in mind that dancing, music and fashion all change with the times.
sabots?
Running out of synonyms for "clog"...
[Raak] No, not sabots. (Uhmmmm, did I say they were clogs?)
A type of sandal?
[Raak] No, not a sandal. *audience applauds this line of inquiry nonetheless*
A boot?
Stilts or something similar that raises the participant a distance off the ground?
I'm pretty certain this is going to be a subject that would annoy Rosie;-)
[CdM] Yes. A boot. *audience cheers as if its team has just won the world cup*
[INJ] No, not stilts. But yes, I have been expecting the hand of Rosie to come and smite me any moment now. :-)
Buskins?
[Raak] No, not buskins.
Gumboots?
[Chalky] No, not gumboots. *a minor hullabaloo, however, arises from the audience*
Related to Mariachi/zapateado?
Related to cheerleading?
[INJ] No, not related to Mariachi/zapataedo.
[Raak] Yes, I can think of at least one professional cheer leading squad I associate with this footwear. (However, the footwear was originally more connected with the runway than with running backs.) *Texans in the audience nod, approvingly*
Gaucho boots?
[Chalky] No, not gaucho boots.
Sequined cowgirl boots ( a la Dallas Cowboys' cheerleaders? thigh-high, or otherwise?)
Ballet shoes?
[irach] No, not sequined cowboy boots. (but the DCC connection is a good one...)
[software] No, not ballet shoes.
Were these boots in fashion in the second half of the twentieth century?
(picking up on your fashion comment earlier)
[CdM] Yes, originiated in the mid-20th century. *audience members rock in their seats! roll in the aisles!*
Go-go boots?
Not sure why I keep guessing - I have no desire to be in the chair next time round. Guess I'm intrigued ... and if the solution turns out to be ridiculously obscure ... I can then 'do a Rosie' [sans swearage] :-D
[Calky] Hallelujah, yes! *gratefully passes one white patent leather baton to Chalky (while doing the Froog)*
None the wiser
Can't find any reference to these as either dance-specific or made of leather and wood (wikipedia refers to them in purely fashion terms and often/mostly made of plastic - which is what I would have guessed). Can someone point me at a helpful reference. Not annoyed, you understand, I just stopped guessing because I'd explored everything I could given the information available and I'd like to know how I could have got there.
Oh, and:
[INJ] Alas, I didn't check wikipedia before I chose the words on the card. My bad--I will remember to do so should I ever be handed the baton again. I relied on my memory of my first pair of go go boots: they where white patent leather and had a stacked wooden heel. I believe I answered the question about dancing shoes early on by saying the the item on the card could be characterized as a dancing shoe without saying it was a dancing shoe directly; I thought I was giving the best answer possible. Later when I realized that it was limiting everyone's thinking, I tried to draw attention to the fashion connection. I was surprised how few questions focused on the style of music connected with the dancing (particularly after some pretty direct hits and/or hints e.g. American-originated, distinguished by its beat, African American influence, etc.) or (until CdM) inquired whether the shoes were currently or historically popular. Anyway--while I am very glad you are not annoyed, INJ--still I am apologetic. This was a round of Painfully Difficult AVMA. Sorry.
Oh...and
Ah ... Ooo-Kaaaaay
Thanks cfm - don't feel you have to apologise. It's tough in the chair.

I'll have a go ...

ANIMAL, MINERAL & VEGETABLE
Is it unique?
I could have sworn I posted this helpful reference for INJ yesterday, but I guess I must have hit preview instead of stand, or something.
Noah's Ark?
[irach] Surely that would be ANIMAL, ANIMAL, MINERAL, and VEGETABLE?
[CdM] Is it unique? YES
[irach] Noah's Ark? NO :)
Is it extant?
[cfm] I've genuinely learnt a couple of things1 from your question, so no need to apologise.

1. Although it's at least partly my era I didn't know that go-go was actually a style and I didn't know the boots had any descriptive name.

[CdM] Not that helpful a reference to look up in an open office!

Begins with P?
Bad news, I'm back...
[INJ] Extant? YES
[Tuj] P-word? NO
Salty bacon crisps?
Edible?
Would one wear it?
Unique?
Primarily a decorative object (vs. ulititarian)?
Unique?
Hang on that's been asked twice already. Make that... Man made?
[Raak] Salty bacon crisps? NO :)
[irach] Edible? NO
[Software] Wearable? NO
[cfm] Primarily decorative as opposed to utilitarian? NO - mostly utilitarian
[GL] Man made? In the main - YES.
Made of leather, wood, and metal fixings?
*cough* Unique?
A piece of furniture or home furnishing?
Is the vegetable wood?
[Tuj] It was unique when CdM asked I doubt that has changed.
Fictional?
[Raak] Made of leather, wood, and metal fixings? The wording of your question requires a NO answer, even though leather, wood and metal are all components of this.
[Tuj] YES - still unique :)
[irach] Furniture/home furnishing - NO, not alone [although your question prompts a murmur from the very sleepy audience]
[GL] Wood? YES - wood is one of the vegetably bits of this
[cfm] Fictional? NO
Would it be used in an office?
[Raak] Used in an office? NO. Definitely not used. It might be contemplated when in an office, but then I expect most things are ..
Does it move - i.e. change location?
[INJ] Move/change location? NO *audience nods approval for question*
Uniq-... Is it for entertainment?
Do any of the elements operate upon or effect the other elements in some way?
Does it have moving parts?
Bigger than a phone box?
[Tuj] Entertainment? NO not really ... aw, maybe in some respects but - my reply really won't help.
[cfm] Elements effecting/affecting each other? Oh YES - absolutely.
[Raak] Moving parts? YES
[GL] Bigger than a phone box? YES - massively so.

*is wondering if the word ABSTRACT should have been part of the opening clue*
A manufacturing facility of some kind?
[cfm] Manufacturing facility? Forms part of this - yes.
Located in Europe?
Is leather the only animal element?
Life, the Universe and Everything?
Do some of the various moving parts (particularly the mineral components) need periodic lubrication for their proper functioning?
Is it a factory?
[CdM] Located in Europe? NO *audience vociferous in their approval of a CdM question*
[cfm] Leather only animal element? NO
[INJ] LtUaE? Life and Most things might be found within this :)
[irach] Lubrication? I expect so - but knowing this isn't particularly useful.
[Raak] Factory? The answer on the card is NOT a factory, although factories are part of the answer [as are moving parts and lubrication] ;-)
Does it have to do with extracting resources from the ground?
Is it in North America?
Is it a country?
Is the other animal element human? *wonders why CdM warrants cheering and if the rest of us are chopped liver*
... sorry for absence - holiday time, etc.
[Raak] Extracting resources? Not really NO
[Tuj] N America? NO *audience applauds this line of questioning*
[GL] A country? NO ... but *audience sees no need to hold back ...*
[cfm] Human? YES! *... claps, cheers and wild excitement accompany the reply to cfm's question*
Is it located in a single continent?
Is it at sea?
Is it a planet?
[CdM] Located in a single continent? YES
[Raak] At sea? NO - assuming I have grasped your gist .. ahem
[GL] A planet? NO
Is just one type of item produced at the manufacturing facility or are there many?
[cfm] I think the phrase 're-examine your assumptions' has been used in this game when it's fairly clear that a player is not moving in the right direction. Apologies if, by inaccurate replies, I have misled you. Having said that - I owe you an answer:

[cfm] Many types of items are likely to be produced at the manufacturing facilities which are likely to be a part of the answer. :-)
Is it a city?
[Chalky] You can grasp my gist any time. :-)
So, bearing in mind that the item is unique and yet is only _likely_ to encompass a manufacturing facility/factory, does that mean that the composition of thing on the card changes over time? It evolves?
Allelulia!
[Raak] A City? A City! YES - yes - it's a city *audience collectively faints with relief*
[cfm] Sort of YES to everything you said - and now you know what you're looking for ... name that city :-)
Does it have more than 5 million inhabitants*
*defining the city in terms that would be generally understood -- i.e., including a surrounding metropolitan area if appropriate.
Is it in Japan?
[CdM] 5m +? YES indeed
[Raak] In Japan? NO
In Asia?
Carrying on the process of elimination
[CdM] correction to above ... Just under 5 million incl surround but still classified as a Metropolitan City.
Sydney?
[INJ] In Asia? YES
[GL]. Sydney? NO
In China?
Singapore?
In East Asia?
[cfm] In China? NO
[Raak] Singapore? NO
[INJ] East Asia? YES! *thunderous applause from audience*
South-East Asia?
Keeping going on this line.
[INJ] SE Asia? NO - which should narrow things down .. :-)
In Korea (either half)?
[Raak] In Korea? YES :-)
Pyongyang?
Busan?
[Raak] Not Pyongyang oop north because ...
[CdM]... BUSAN it is! [my eldest has just returned from a wonderful year there teaching primary school age kids]

*hands the shiny clean and impeccably-mannered baton to CdM*
Oops, sorry, busy day.

MINERAL and VEGETABLE with various ANIMAL connections. Or possibly ABSTRACT with MINERAL, VEGETABLE and ANIMAL connections
A zoological park?
A tool?
?
A song?
A zoo? No
A tool? No
?? !!
A song? No.
Human construct?
Human construct? Very definitely.
A phrase or saying?
Would it fit inside a kitchen drawer?
A book?
To do with music?
A sporting activity?
A building?
Phrase or saying? No.
Kitchen drawer? No. *laughter*
Book? No.
Music? No.
Sport? No.
Building? Yes. *applause*
In UK?
Built before 1900?
In UK? and Built before 1900? Here is where I need to remind you that I equivocated about defining this as abstract. Neither question really makes sense. (However, I can say that it has its origins in the UK before 1900.)
I should also perhaps add that there are certainly connections to books and music. I wouldn't have found them helpful, but some here might, I suppose. This is the kind of thing where Wikipedia has a long list of references in popular culture/examples in modern society.
A type of building?
A museum?
Does (or did) the thing on the card have an actual physical presence?
Is this a fictional building?
Did a specific person (or people) live there?
Type of building? Yes *applause*
Museum? No (although there are some connections).
Actual physical presence? *audience applause for the question* The answer is debatable. I'm going to go with a qualified Yes.
Fictional? No (although there are certainly fictional connections).
Specific person or people live there? No, not exactly. Depends what you mean by "specific", I suppose.
A palace?.
An industrial type of building?
Palace? No. *ironic laughter from audience*
Industrial? No. (Or at least only if you were to take a very broad definition of the term.)
Related to the area known as St. George's Fields?
Related to St George's Fields? No.
Related to farming?
Agricultural? No.
Are there several of these?
Are there several of these? Well, as my earlier answer to cfm suggests, it is debatable whether there is (or was) even one of these. But I will again answer with a qualified Yes.
Does this maybe building have religious significance?
Is it mythical?
BC?
Does it have a metaphorical meaning?
(as for 'Skid Row')
Religious significance? No.
Mythical? No.
BC? No.
Metaphorical? Interesting question. I think it's more concrete and not as obviously metaphorical as your example. As against that, the Wikipedia article on this does include a section entitled "The P__________ as Metaphor", so the answer is clearly Yes. (I was/am more aware of the literal meaning, but it is possible that others here are more aware of metaphorical senses; I don't know.)
A Panopticon?
The Poorhouse?
Yes! Following on my pantechnicon when I was last in the chair, this was Jeremy Bentham's revolutionary prison design that allows a single guard to observe all the prisoners. (It's still not clear what the single guard does when he observes all the prisoners rioting, mind you.)

*hands Raak a baton that, rather curiously, can be seen on all sides at once from a single vantage point*
MINERAL, with ANIMAL and ABSTRACT connections.
The Bastille?
Not the Bastille.
larger that the toaster unit?
Larger than a toaster.
Begins with a P?
Does not begin with P.
Is the mineral component largely or entirely metal?
[irach] Yes, mostly metal.
A precious metal?
Not precious.
Bigger than a phone box?
Unique?
Unique?
Er. Sorry. That was not a unique question.
A statue?
[GL] Smaller than a phone box.
[Twins] Unique.
[INJ] Not a statue.
A sculpture?
[CdM] Not a sculpture.
Does it have moving parts?
[INJ] No moving parts.
Man-made?
Found in a domestic environment?
Is the associated animal human?
[jim] Man-made.
[Chalky] Not found at home.
[INJ] The animal is human.
Associated with a single, specific individual?
[CdM] Not associated with a specific individual.
In Europe?
[Tuj] In Europe.
Of scientific significance?
[CdM] No scientific significance.
A pillar box?
[Software] Not a pillar box.
BTW, I've complained in the past that "ABSTRACT" is over-used, and I may have been guilty of that myself here. Pretty much everything has "abstract connections", and I don't think this is especially connected to the abstract. Just a unique object of non-precious metal, somewhere in Europe, with animal connections.
Smaller than a toaster?
[irach] (Still) bigger than a toaster.
Is the non-metal mineral part made of stone?
I'll include stony stuff like brick & concrete in that.
[INJ] Not stony.
In the UK?
[Tuj] In the UK!
A fountain?
Not a fountain.
Is this of historical importance?
In England?
It's Friday afternoon, I'm not up to thinking of original questions.
Is it partly constructed of wrought iron?
Is the non-metal mineral part glassy or crystalline?
Anything from a pane of glass to the Cullinan
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