mc5 - AVMA Take 2

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AVMA Take 2

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Yes, it's another round of that classic guessing game - Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, Abstract [or any combination thereof]. This effort - '03/'04 should address any queries, but then again, may just serve to confuse and baffle which some might say is the point of the game. Patience, integrity and a decent search engine may be useful ....

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A utensil?

A saucepan?

(Raak) I'm not a metallurgist but I'd say an alloy is any metallic mixture in which the minor component is metallic and deliberately added or not removed. So ordinary steel, minor component carbon, no, railway lines, 1% manganese, yes, and saucepans, duralumin (aluminium + a few percent copper) yes.

is the useful object commonly used in the present day?

[irach] Not a utensil.
[Rosie] Not a saucepan. According to the web, despite its elemental name, iron in all its engineering uses is an alloy with carbon and possibly other components. So that's what I went with.
[cfm] Used in the present day.

Does it sometimes have non-metallic parts as well?

[irach] Yes, see earlier answer "partly of stone".

Bigger than a toaster?

Used indoors?

(irach) It probably is a toaster.

[irach] Bigger than a toaster.
[Rosie] Not used indoors.

Agricultural connection?

[cfm] Not agricultural.

Connected with transport?

[INJ] Not connected with transport.

Connected with recreation?

[cfm] Not connected with recreation.
Currently batting 16 no to 4 yes and 2 partly.

Connected to telecommunications?

[irach] Not connected to telecoms.

Static?

Once it has been placed in its functional position, that is.

[INJ] Um...mostly static.

A piece of road "furniture"?

Static until someone drives into it.

Lamp post?

[Rosie] *applause* Yes, it is road furniture.
[irach] Not a lamp post.

Is this normally shaped in the form of a lens?

A lamp-post?

A Lamp Post?

Oh-Oh, Have we hit a 'lamp-post' loop?

Hang on, I think I can see the problem.
Pass me that Birmingham screwdriver.
*Clannggg!*

A post box?

There, that's better.

[Dujon] Not lenticular.
[Rosie,INJ] Not a lamp post, a lamp-post, or a Lamp Post. Nor even a lamppost.
[INJ] Not a post box.

a fire hydrant?

[cfm] Not a fire hydrant.

Garbage dumpster?

Bollards?

[irach] Not a dumpster.
[GL] Not a bollard.

A Bus Stop pole?

[irach] Not a bus stop pole.

More general questions might be more helpful.

Related to the energy industry?

If not a lamp-post, then a lamp-post?

Oh dear me, more haste less speed.

On the pavement, as opposed to in the road?

[Rosie] Could be in the pavement or the road.

[cfm] Not related to the energy industry.
[Rosie] Not related to lighting fixtures.

Manhole cover?

[irach] **CLANGGGGG** It's a manhole cover. *Peers down hole in ground* irach? irach?

Phew... Glad to ge out of that hole.... The next one is ABSTRACT with VEGETABLE AND MINERAL AND (STRONG).

Begins with P?

(STRONG) as in Strong Animal Connections?

Fictional?

[Tuj] Does does not begin with "P". Don't know what happened...Should have read ABSTRACT with VEGETABLE AND MINERAL AND (STRONG) ANIMAL CONNECTIONS.

[GLogin] Yes, fictional, I guess.

Connected with food?

[INJ] Parts (but not all) of the vegetable and animal connections are related to food.

Is it festive?

[Tuj] Yes, festive.

Connected with Christmas?

[Raak] Yes, connected to Christmas.

Related to snowmen?

Anything to do with stables?

[GLogin] No snowmen.
[Dujon] No, not really. Maybe a very peripheral connection to stables, but the best answer is no.

Santa's sleigh?

Twelve Days of Christmas?

[Raak] Not the Santa sleigh.
[cfm] The "Twelve Days of Christmas" it is! Not only is a baton handed off to you, but because my true love and I have split up, and I have no need for them, I will also hand over Twelve drummers drumming, Eleven pipers piping, Ten lords a-leaping, Nine ladies dancing, Eight maids a-milking, Seven swans a-swimming, Six geese a-laying, Five golden rings, Four calling birds, Three French hens, Two turtle doves, and a partridge in a pear tree!

[irach] Oh my my, thank you. I am overwhelmed by your generosity. Curiously, was the tangential connection to stables related to the maids-a-milking? Next we have something

ANIMAL with ABSTRACT CONNECTIONS

[cfm] Yes, the very periperally, tangential possible connection to stables was the "maids-a-milking".

"Rudolph, the Red Nosed Reindeer"?

Is the animal human?

[irach] NO, not poor Rudolph.
[INJ] YES, the animal connection is human.

Christmassy?

Human fictional?

[Raak] NO, nothing particularly festive about it.
[Rosie] NO, not fictional.

A specific, named individual, or a type/class of person such as a "Member of Parliament"?

Linked to a particular country or culture?

[irach] Two questions posed there, I think. NO, not one named individual. YES membership is a relevant idea.
[CdM] Hmmmmm. Very challenging to answer that one. But I think the best answer is YES, originally.

Anything to do with sport?

An ethnic group?

Connected with an occupation?

Are there more than a million members of this group alive today?

Related to religion?

[Rosie]NO, unrelated to sport.
[Raak] NO, ethincity is unimportant
[INJ] YES, related to an occupation! *audience re-engages, claps*
[CdM] NO, no million alive today.
[Tuj] NO, secular in nature.

Did more people practise this occupation in the past than nowadays?

[Raak] NO, the related occupation is more common now.

Did the occupation exist 100 years ago?

Are there more than a hundred members of this group alive today?

Tattoo artists?

[Raak] YES, the related occupation existed.
[CdM] NO, there are not 100 members alive.

Are members of this group generally viewed favourably?

Repeating my above question....Tattoo artists?

[Rosie] YES, they are well regarded.
[irach] So sorry to have overlooked your question. NO, not tattoo artists.

Are they involved in any of the fine arts?

The Beatles?

[irach] YES. They are.
[CdM] NO. More than four in the group--I'll throw that in for free. :-)

Are these people members of an elite group of award winners?

[Dujon] NO, award-winning is not what defines this group.

Performers of music?

[Rosie] NO, they are not musicians.

Actors and/or actresses?

Monarchs?

[Rosie] NO, neither on stage nor screen.
[INJ] NO, they are commoners.

Dancers?

[irach] NO, but you are narrowing the field!

Acrobats?

[irach] NO. *re-directs you to the YES answer to your question about fine arts*

In the graphic arts?

[Raak] YES. Related to the graphic arts.

Do they form an organisation?

[Raak] YES. They organized.

Young British Artists?

As depicted in Private Eye.

[Rosie]NO. Not YBAs.

Was this organisation founded before 1800?

Members of the Royal Academy?

[Raak]NO. More recent than1800.
[INJ] NO. Not the Royal Academy.

The Impressionists?

[irach] NO. Not The Impressionists.

Did the group organise after 1900?

[irach] YES. After 1900.

Cubists?

TO DO WITH MOVING PICTURES?

Er, excuse the caps lock there.

[irach] NO. Cubism did not define the group. *audience claps anyway* (which is to say there might just be a connection of some kind...)
[Raak] NO. Not moving pictures. *audience claps anyway again*

To do with cartoons/comic books?

[irach] NO. Not particularly funny.
Hint: Raak's questions about the related occupation were significant.

Does the name of this group itself contain a name?

[Rosie] NO. The name contains no name.

Was this group more important in the past than it is in the present day?

Is this primarily a European grouping?

[CDM] Hard to say about importance. The group's influence is still significant but is pretty much taken for granted today.
[INJ] No, not primarily European.

Anything to do with photography?

[Rosie] YES. Proceed. :-)

Any connection to Alfred Stieglitz?

So (I presume) the related profession is photography, and we are looking for a group of individuals, fewer than 100 but greater than 4 in number, who had a significant influence on the profession in the past but whose influence is now taken for granted. We don't know if any of this group are alive today, but we do know that the group organized after 1900. It's possibly linked to a particular country/culture which is not primarily European.

[CdM] YES. And well summarized. :-)

Begins with P?

[CdM] Ta.

Was Ansel Adams a leading light in the original group?

[Tuj] Was waiting for you. YES. Begins with P.
[Dujon] NO. Adams' group began with F. :-)

The Photo-Secessionists?

I left a decent interval, but no one is stepping in...

Click!
[CdM] YES. Steiglitz was among the first to argue that the camera could be an instrument of fine art--an idea we rather take for granted these days.
[Iraak] The connection to cubism is Steiglitz'a gallery 291, where many avant garde European artists, including the cubists, first exhibited in the U.S.
*Hands CdM the baton, again.*

This one is ANIMAL and VEGETABLE with a minor MINERAL component.

Is it a food item with salt being the minor mineral component?

Salted food item? Yes. *audience applauds the bright start*

Begins with P?

*sigh*

[Tuj] Are you feeling typecast?
Begins with P? Yes.

Is it festive?

I've only got myself to blame!

Ham and bean soup?

Ooops. guess that doesn't begin with P. how about pea soup with ham? :-)

Pork pie?

Festive? No.
Pam and bean soup? No.
Pork pie? No.

Is the animal portion meat (rather than dairy)?

A "snack" food or something more substantial?

Meaty? Yes.
Snacky? More substantial than a snack food. *a little murmured discussion in the audience*

Would this be a food which most people are likely to have purchased in a 'take-away' form rather than in a restaurant (e.g. a kebab)?

Take-away vs Restaurant? No simple answer to that. It could be purchased for consumption on the premises; it could be purchased in a take-away form for eating elsewhere; it could be purchased for consumption at home. All three are perfectly normal for this particular foodstuff.

A sandwich of some kind?

Sandwich? No, but *considerable applause* nonetheless.

Some form of dough stuffed with meat?

Does the 'meaty' bit come from a fowl?

Meatfilled dough? No. *smattering of applause from the more generous audience members*
Fowl? Not usually, but it can.

Something with dumplings in it?

Pizza?

Pepperoni Pizza?

Pepperoni, pork and papaya pizza, with a side order of peanuts?

Dumplinged? No.
Pizza (with pepperoni, pork, papaya, peanuts, pumpkin, and peas)? No.
(On reflection, the audience should not have applauded cfm's last question; the applause for his/her sandwich question was sufficient.)

Pasty (or pastie)?

Pasty? No.
Edible pastie? Definitely no. This is a family game.

Are the words on the card English?

e.g. Pasty rather than pasta.

Pilaf?

Pastrami?

Porchetta panini?

Ding! Ding! Ding!

English? Yes-ish. Fortunately I don't have to think too hard about this one because...
Pilaf? No, but...
Pastrami? Yes! [From Wikipedia] It is cured in brine, coated with a mix of spices such as garlic, coriander, black pepper, paprika, cloves, allspice, and mustard seed, and then smoked. Finally, the meat is steamed..." and "...although beef navels are the traditional cut of meat for making pastrami, it is now common to see pastrami made from beef brisket, beef round and turkey."
*hands GL one thinly sliced baton on rye*

Oh, darn um... OK MINERAL with ABSTRACT connections

Is it festive?

Is the mineral metal?

That's annoying - I'd thought of pastrami, but rejected it because I thought it had to be beef. YLSNED.

The star that the Three Wise Men followed?

[Tuj] festive? No.
[ImNotJohn] metal? Yes.
[Raak] the comet? No.

A musical instrument?

Unique?

[INJ] I like how that looks like a past participle.

[Raak] musical instrument? No
[Tuj] unique? Yes

Fictional?

The Angel of the North?

[cfm] fictional? It depends who you ask, I would say on balance - No.
[INJ] the angel? No.

A work of art?

Is the abstract connected with literature?

[Raak] work of art? *Some tittering from the audience* No.
[INJ] abstract connected with literature? No.

Bigger than a two-up-two-down?

Is the sometimes-considered-fictional element of the thing its abstract connection??

To do with the Yuletide season?

[Raak] bigger than a house? Yes, more so if you include the concrete part I'd forgotten about.
[cfm] sometimes-considered-fictional element; the abstract connection? The abstract connection is not universally considered factual... But is abstract either way
[irach] to do with yuletide? Still not Festive

Is it a monument?

[Raak] monument? No

Is the abstract-connection-not-universally-considered-factual religious in nature?

[cfm] is the abstract religious? No.

Is it in Europe?

[Tuj] in Europe? Yes

In the UK?

[Tuj] UK? If the abstract is fictional it's in the UK.

Is it more than 100 years old?

[Raak] created before 1st Jan 1912? No.

Is its whereabouts known and constant?

Hmm!

[Tuj] fixed location? Yes

Is it a building?

Sealand?

Is the abstract component related to government/politics?

[Raak] building? Yes
[cfm] government related or political? Yes
[Tuj] Principality of Sealand? YES. Have a semi-autonomous baton.

Well, shiver me timbers!

So! Let's have a nice bit of

ABSTRACT

Related to the current season?

Funny how that's become a default question this month

Raak] Festive? NO

A title? (Such as of a book, song, movie?)

irach] A title? Do you know what, the word(s) on the card do form the title of one of those things, so YES, though as far as my setting is concerned that's coincidental.

Seeing as you cannot pose the quetion, Tuj, does the answer begin with a 'P'?

Sorry. My ring finger had a brief holiday. 'question' not 'quetion'.

An emotion?

An imaginary character?

A well known phrase or saying?

Dujon] I could hardly resist ;) YES!
Rosie] An emotion? NO
Raak] Imaginary character? *audience gives a brief burst of laughter, applause* NO. There are elements of truth in what you ask, like with irach's happy happenstance, but it's certainly not imaginary.
GL] Phrase or saying? NO

Is it the name of a role?

An activity?

Raak] Name of a role? NO
Rosie] Activity? NO

Does this have anything to do with Ovid and sculpture?

Is the coincidental link a title of a movie?

MC to all MCers

Dujon] Ovid and sculpture? Not that I know of
irach] A film title? YES

A human construct?

CdM] Human construct? NO

A film made in the last twenty years?

Will be asking the Internet all about this film

Rosie] Was the film the answer on the card coincidentally shares its name with made after 1992? YES

Is the answer to do with the 'arts'?

Could animals be aware of this abstract quality?

Penelope?

Did the film the answer on the card coincidentally shares its name with star that guy, name's on the tip of my tongue, you know, was in the movie with whatshername, you know, who got the oscar nomination for that movie about the guy and the other guy, played by that really tall bloke, and the girl who had the problem with whaddyacallit?

Good questions all!

Dujon] Arts? NO
Rosie] Animal awareness? NO, I doubt it. Though I could imagine some bored scientist making a case about bees or something, like they do.
Chalky] pen? NO =)
CdM] ...? This was particularly hard to research, but I'm pretty sure the answer is NO

Related to biology?

Can it be measured?

cfm] Biological? NO
Rosie] Measured? YES (though that may not quite be the right word) *some appreciative audience noise*

Something to do with the weather?

We're stalling. Time for a summary?

Rosie] Your favourite subject? NO

To do with magic?

A purely physical effect?

Favourite subject? Well one of them. :-)

Keep fishing

irach] Magical? NO
Physical? NO

Do do with something monetary?

Related to mathematics?

irach] Monetary? NO
jim] Mathematical? YES! *standing ovation*

Pi?

Eureka!

INJ] Pi? YES *audience fire party poppers*

Here, have this cylindrical baton, and I won't even ask you to calculate its volume.

Lurker? Me?

OK, this one is MINERAL

Metal?

Manufactured?

Unique?

[Raak] Metallic? - NO
[GL] Manufactured? YES (in the broadest sense)
[Tuj] Unique? - YES is probably the most helpful answer *some muttering in the audience*

Assuming a unique instance

Was it made in the last 20 years?

Concrete (in the concrete sense)?

[Merlyn] Naughty nineties? - NO
[Raak] Concretion? - NO

A reservoir?

Could it be seen from space?

[Rosie] The big reservoy? - NO
[Tuj] Spatial visibility? - Well, space is a big place - did you have any particular bit of it in mind? How big a pair of binoculars have you got with you?
Anyway, the sensible and useful answer is NO

Is the mineral water?

Is the mineral water what?

[Rosie] Perrier? - NO

Is the 'manufacture' of this mineral natural, in the sense, say, of granite or pumice?

[Dujon] Naturally manufactured? - I think I see what you mean and the answer is NO. I probably should have said 'In a broad sense' for manufactured, just as a clue that you shouldn't interpret it too narrowly. This is the product of a human process.

Is the mineral a by-product of another process?

Is it in a specific fixed location?

[Dujon] Mineral a by-product? - NO
[CdM] In one place? - YES *a few appreciative murmurs in the audience*

Located in Europe?

[cfm] European? - NO

On Earth?

Has this thing necessitated the shifting of large quantities of rock, soil etc?

Begins with P?

[Chalky] Terrestrial? - YES
[Rosie] Moving rock/soil - YES *some applause*
[Tuj] THE QUESTION? - NO

Fracking?

[Raak] Fracking? - Frack NO!

If it's not fricking fracking - is it in aNY WAYconnected to fuel extraction

Cold

[Chalky] Drilling/mining/etc? - NO

Is it linked to death?

[GL] Morbid? - To some extent but not exclusively or even chiefly *whispered discussions in the audience*

Connected with transport?

[Rosie] Transport-related? - NO

Is this an individual object?

[Raak] Individual object? - NO (this explains the hesitation over Unique). Strictly speaking it's a group, but the words on the card card refer to the whole group.

Current hours of business

I will respond as quickly as I can between 8am & 6pm UK time, but I'm not carrying my laptop the 2 mile walk to my hotel.

Is this collection to be found in China?

The Pyramids?

[Dujon] Sinitic? - NO (but it so easily could have been since I was in Xi'an in October)
[Rosie] Pyramids? - NO, but *some applause*

Does it end with P?

[CdM] Pending? - NO

Stonehenge?

[Raak] Stonehenge? - NO (it was still in Europe last time I looked)

Does it contain a P?

[GL] Pinternal? - NO

Should the fact that you were in Xi'an in October (or at all) influence our search?

[Rosie] China etc? No, not in any obvious way and if at all, then probably only after the fact. Certainly thinking along lines suggested by China and terracotta armies isn't likely to help. My comment was only because I thought that was what Dujon was thinking of.

The statues of Easter Island?

In the Americas?

[Raak] That looks a good guess.

You were correct in your thoughts, ImNotJohn.

*Awaits response to Raak's query before losing any more podumes*

In the Middle East?

[Raak] Moai? - NO
[Tuj] American? - NO
[Dujon] There you are, you could have had a go
[irach] Mediaorientalist? - NO (but tying this down geographically is a good approach)

Australasian?

Manufactured/constructed/whatever within the last 100 years?

[Tuj] Built upside-down? - NO
[CdM] - Less than 100 years old? - NO

In Africa?

A bit warmer

[Chalky] Africa? - YES *applause*

Taller than a double-decker bus?

Resisting guessing "the twin peaks of Mt. Kilimanjaro"

[Tuj] The routemaster measurement? - In one sense, YES, in another, NO *audience nods knowingly*

Is it in a single country?

[Tuj] In 1 country? - YES

BTW - with an arm up my back I'd plump for 'taller than a bus' but you'll understand why I answered as I did when you get the answer, or very shortly before.

Do people live in it?

The Kimberley Mine (aka The Big Hole)?

(Although I now see you answered the earlier fuel-extraction question with a general negative comment about mining, so I suspect my guess is not right.)

[Tuj] Inhabited? - NO
[CdM] Big 'ole? - NO
*audience applauds both questions*
Re mining/drilling - if it had been a diamond mine, even if open-cast, I wouldn't have replied as I did, but you have got the right idea as to the bus answer, so don't read too much into it - and don't forget Rosie's early question.

Is this conglomeration situated in Ethiopia?

Celle-ci n'est pas une question

So, if I am inferring correctly from the answers, we are looking for something underground or below ground level, but not linked to mining, not inhabited, created by humans more than a century ago and not containing water. Man-made caves? Tunnels? Tombs?

[Dujon] Abyssinian? - YES! *loud and prolonged applause*
Why didn't you just have a guess at it?
[CdM] Fairly accurate, but Dujon has leap-frogged you.

The Sof Omar Caves?

[Raak] Sof Omar caves? - NO, but they look fascinating - however they're too natural.

Royal Tombs of Aksum?

Isn't that in Earthsea?

[CdM] Axum tombs - NO (my reading is that they are megalithic, which I would take as being above ground)
Come on, someone must get it soon!

The pyramids of Meroe?

I didn't think there were so many possibilities

[Raak] Pyramids of Meroe? - NO
Basically below ground level, remember

Lalibela churches?

That has to be it! :-)

At Last!

YES
It is the rock-cut (or monolithic) churches of Lalibela, where I hope to be in about a week's time.
Here's a mountain and a chisel - carve your own baton.

(INJ) Could you and CdM conduct your nerdy little game in private and give the rest of us a chance? It seems pointless and time-wasting to ask questions when one has no chance whatever of guessing the answer, and this is not for the first time, either.

[INJ] Exceedingly cool.
[Rosie] Really? I had no idea you felt that way. In future you should make sure we all know if you are unhappy about how the game is played.
MINERAL

~~In Ethiopia?~~ Unique?

Man made?

Unique? Yes.
Man-made? No.

(CdM) Fuck off, Cunt de Melbourne. What a pair of irritating nerdish selfish twats you and your brother are.

Terrestial?

[Rosie] Behave! :)
[Tuj] Behave! ;)
[INJ] Because I have no desire to 'win'. ;)

Terrestrial? No.
[Rosie] Your recurring temper tantrums really are getting a little tiresome. Perhaps it's time for you to take your ball and go home again for a couple of weeks. I don't think you've done that yet this month.

Oops

Sorry. YES to Terrestrial

Is the mineral water?

Water? No.

A geological feature?

Geological feature? Yes.

A mountain?

Well, whilst I feel a little guilty in banging in consecutive questions no one else has bothered for a day or so.

A mountain? Yes. *applause* [Dujon] Better be careful. You might end up winning. :-)

In Africa?

Yes it does! Er. Oops. I mean
Under African skies? No.

Surely it's more obscure than...Kilimanjaro?

Begins with P?

In Europe?

Ooops :-)

Under African skies? Still no.
Begins with P? Yes. (That was what I meant with my last answer.)
In Europe? No.

Pinatubo?

Does this edifice have an attraction for motor sport?

Pinatubo? No.
Motor sport? No.

Popocatepetl?

Popocatepetl? No. (I can't help feeling that there are a lot of non-European, non-African mountains beginning with P.)

In the Americas?

[CdM] Ahh, I wondered what that answer meant!

Puncak Jaya?

Pike's Peak?

In the Americas? Yes
More random mountains beginning with P? No.

In the US?

In the US? Yes.

This mountain does have a claim to fame, by the way, so it is certainly possible to approach the questioning by routes other than the purely geographic.

Mount Palomar, with its additional claim to fame in astronomy circles?

Famous for a specific event?

Palomar Mountain? Yes! *hands irach hollowed baton with lenses in each end*

Dizzied with my success I see stars....!!!! The next one is ABSTRACT WITH A STRONG ANIMAL CONNECTION

Is the animal connection human?

Is it a single-word answer?

[CdM] The animal connection is not human.
[Tuj] The answer is multiple-worded.

A symbolic animal?

Begins with P?

a well-known phrase or metaphor?

A phrase containing the name of an animal (e.g. lion's share, dog's breakfast etc)?

Is it a fictional part of a real animal? (eg hen's teeth, horse feathers etc)

[Raak] The animal in qustion is not exactly symbolic or iconic, except in one limited way.
[Tuj] Does not begin with "P".
[cfm] YES, a well-known phrase.
[jim] Yes, the phrase contains the name of the animal.
[GLogin] No, not a fictional part of a real animal.

Is the answer a title (e.g., of a book, play, film, TV show, work of art by Tracey Emin...)?

Is the animal a mammal?

Is it the Bee's Knees? (with or without an arrow through them)

[CdM] Not the title of anything, as far as I am aware.
[cfm] The animal in question is not a mammal.
[GLogin] Not the bee's (or any other arthropod's) knees.

Is the animal a reptile?

Is the animal a fish?

Is the fish a reptile?

Does it fly?

Is it a metaphor?

[cfm] Yes, the animal is a reptile.
[Tuj] A reptile, therefore not a fish.
[CdM] ibid.The fish is no reptile.
[Raak] Does not fly.
[Chalky] Not a metaphor.

Leaping lizards?

Is the animal a kind of snake?

[cfm] Not leaping lizards.
[CdM] Not a snake (in the grass or otherwise).

(I had stated that this phrase was not the title of anything, as far as i was aware. Googling it now shows that it also happens to be the title of an obscure something, but the words on the card are much more well known to the public when used as the phrase itself).

Crocodile tears?

[Software] Not crocodile tears; yet the audience is now all agog.

See you later, alligator?

YES, it is the phrase "See you later, alligator". In lieu of a conventional baton, a long stick, to keep the 'gator at bay while saying fond goodbyes to it, is duly handed over to cfm.

Er...thank you. What? Hey! Oh dear...down boy!
This one is VEGETABLE AND MINERAL WITH A STRONG ABSTRACT CONNECTION.

Salt and pepper?

Chalk and cheese?

Vegan cheese, obviously.

Edible?

[irach] Bill Haley and 'See You Later, Alligator' is obscure? Shame on you, sir, shame. ;)

Darn it, I forgot, cfm. Short term memory?

[irach] Well seasoned: NO
[raak] Cuisine du pica: NO
[CdM] Cuisine at all: NO
[Dujon] Was there a question in there somewhere? :-)

Begins with P?

Is the vegetable wood?

Is the mineral metal?

Unique?

[Tuj] NO, not this time.
[G] YES, there is wood involved.
[CdM] NO, not unique.
And my apologies, players: as I reviewed the composition of the word on the card in my mind's eye, I realized there is sometimes a minor ANIMAL component as well.

[Jim] YES, there is metal involved.

Is the wood component processed?

Is the Animal component more minor than the Vegetable and Mineral-iness, which in themselves aren't as major as the obviously strong Abstractiness of this thingy?

Alternatively - is this game quite difficult to play 'from the chair'?
Just say yes.

[Chalky} LOL! er....YES!

[CdM] YES. The wood is subject to human/mechanical intervention.

Is the wood in the form of paper?

[CdM] NO. There is no paper involved.

*back to basics* Is this the name of a place?

[Chalky] NO. Not a place.

Are there other significant vegetable and mineral components other than wood and metal?

Is this a well-known phrase or saying?

Is the animal component leather?

[CdM] Complicated question. How do you define signifcant? Here is what I think will be a helpful answer. Plastic/resin elements may be involved. Plastics/resins may have both vegetable and mineral components.
[Chalky] NO. Not a well-known phrase or saying.
[irach] NO. The animal component is not leather.

Would the wooden element likely be found indoors?

[irach] You might encounter the word on the card indoors or outdoors. The wooden element is integrated with the other elements.

Do you think a typical morniverser would own one of these?

[CdM] MAYBE Not knowing any morniversers, I can not say what is typical.

Fine, whatever... :-) Do YOU own one?

[CdM] That's a pretty personal question. Can someone consult the rules? Is that allowed?

[CdM] Well, alright. Since no one appears to be troubled by the nature of your inquiry... :-)
YES. I own one.

Is the wooden element a piece of furniture?

[irach] NO. Not a piece of furniture.

Are you male or female?

If it's not a personal question: Are you a virgin?

OK - I'll re-phrase that. Given your reply to CdM - is this more likely to be owned by a male?

... and there's no need to be rude. Trolling isn't tolerated here.

Is it portable?

[Chalky] I believe "Fakename"'s question is inadmissible anyway, since it doesn't refer to the item we're trying to guess.

[Chalky] YES, is my best guess, men own more of these. But I have no statistics and Google isn't helping.
The personal question comment was a joke, you know. :-)
[jim] YES. It is portable.
[Fakename] Fake off.

Is it functional?

(and that's not a personal question)

[CdM] YES, it is functional as opposed to decorative.

An object often carried in a wallet or purse?

Bigger than a toaster?

[Tuj] Between bills and baby pictures? NO.
[CdM] YES. Even a DeLonghi 6-slice.

Is it powered?

A microwave ready meal?

[CdM] YES. Some of these are powered. But some are not.
[Software] NO. See above, it is bigger than a 6-slice toaster.

Is it connected with agriculture or gardening?

Is it propelled on the ground?

A barbeque?

[jim] Seedy reputation? NO. No agricultural connection.
[irach] Moving right along...? NO. Neither the ground nor propulsion are relevant.

[Software] Toss it on the grill... NO. Fire hazard indoors, too. :-)

Would it typically be described as a tool?

[CdM] NO. It would not be described as a tool.

Is it used for recreational purposes?

Is it stationary whilst in use?

[irach] YES. Sometimes. But not in the sports sense of word recreational and it may also be used, in a professional context.
[Gusset Login] YES. Sometimes. But it's never completely immobile.

Does it contain electronic components?

[CdM] NO. Not necessarily. But electronic components may be added to increase its functionality.

A rabbit hutch with optional built-in clock radio and microwave?

[CdM] NO. I think that would constitute a major animal component.

[cfm] I didn't say anything about it containing a rabbit.

Is the wooden bit a handle?

[irach] NO. The object has no handle.

Any musical connection?

[INJ] YES. There is a musical connection.

Is the musical connection a guitar?

Is it a musical instrument?

[INJ] The audience probably should have made a bigger fuss over your last question...but they were really sleepy that night. :-)
[irach] YES. Bingo. *hands irach a rosewood baton with mother-of-pearl inlay*

(Strumming the newly acquired baton while contemplating the next puzzle should be, still wondering what the 'abstract" element in a guitar is)...ah, here goes, the next one is ABSTRACT

A human construct?

[irach] Not presuming to speak for cfm, but s/he specified an abstract connection, which I take to be music/songs.

[irach] What he said. [CdM] What you said.

[cfm] Yes, a human construct.

Connected to geography?

Connected to the arts?

Bigger than a virtual toaster?

Anarcho-syndicalism?

Mark my words, one day it's going to be right.

[Tuj] Tangentially, yes, related to a "geographical" location.
[Raak] Not connected to the arts.
[Software] In the abstract world, if bigger is better, it is better known than any virtual toaster.
{INJ} Drat, not this time around.

Topical?

[irach] I like the toaster answer very much.

Related to a specific belief system?

An organisation?

[INJ] Not related to a belief system.
[Raak] Not an organisation.

Topical?

Does that include the flying toasters that were once ubiquitous on Windows PCs?

[GLogin] Not particularly topical. It would not come up in normal everyday conversations, except perhaps in very select limited circles.
[CdM] Perhaps not, in retrospect.

To do with science?

[Raak] No scientific connection, but perhaps a tangential link to scientific method.

A phrase or saying?

[Software] Not a phrase in the true sense of the word, or a saying.

A sensation?

Related to sport?

[cfm] Not a sensation.
[Tuj] Not sport-related.

A state of mind or emotion?

[cfm] Not a state of mind or emotion.

An activity?

[cfm] Not an activity, but rather a hub of "activity".

A location?

[cfm] Yes, a location.

A unique location or a common location?

Related to economic activity?

[cfm] A unique location.
[CdM] Not related to econmoic activity.

A location in Europe?

[cfm] A location in Europe - "Yes", and no.

Does this location move?

[Raak] The location does not move, it is fixed, but remember, it is in essence ABSTRACT.

Is it defined by its position in relation to other things?

Such as 'the pole of inaccessibility' or 'the centre of the UK'

[ImNotJohn] It is a much more specifically pinpoint-able locale than a place defined by its relationships to other things; yet it is abstract in that it is in fact not a "real" locale. Therefore my earlier answer "Yes" and no about it being located in Europe.

Does it appear in a work of fiction?

Like the Reichenbach Falls

[ImNotJohn] Yes, it does appear in a work of fiction. It is not Reichenbach Falls, but quite a few in the audience clap and nod appreciatively at its mention.

221b Baker Street?

YES, 221b Baker Street it is. See, 'twas elementary, my dear Watsons. It's through sleuthing with proper questioning, not by sheer luck one homes in to the right answer. A calabash pipe, in place of a baton, is handed over to Raak.

The next is VEGETABLE, ANIMAL, and MINERAL.

Does it begin with a P?

Does not begin with a P.

- oh

Is it unique?

Is it edible?

Is it a domestic article?

Is it Groucho Marx (the animal) smoking a cigar (vegetable) an dropping the ashes (mineral)?

[Tuj] Not unique.
[CdM] Inedible.
[INJ] Not really a domestic article.
[irach] Grouchy marks? No.

Is the vegetable paper?

Is the vegetable component wood?

[GL] Not paper.
[irach] The vegetable is wood.

Is the animal component leather?

Bigger than a toaster?

[cfm] Yes, leather.
[Tuj] Bigger than a toaster.

A lacrosse stick?

[cfm] Jolly lacrosse sticks? No.

Is the mineral metal?

[irach] Yes, metal.
What can you make with wood, leather, and metal? Actually, technically I think the animal part is not "leather", but it is skin processed in some way.

An old steamer sea trunk?

"skin processed in some way"? Whoa. Weirdness.

Just sayin....

Related to interment, memorialization?

[irach] Not a trunk.
[cfm] Not six feet under.

Bigger than a phone box?

[CdM] Not bigger than a phone box.

Would one normally find it indoors?

Is it musical?

[jim] Can be indoors or outdoors.
[Tuj] *applause* It is musical.

A concertina?

Oh, hang on, you said it was musical.

[INJ] It is both musical, and not a concertina.

A drum?

A tambourine?

[Tuj] *more applause* It is a drum.
[INJ] But not a tambourine.

Bongo drums?

[irach] Not bongos.

Associated with a particular people or location?

[INJ] Yes, associated with etc.

Bongo druums?

A djembe?

[cfm] Not a djembe.

A Taiko drum?

Is this a drum which is struck with an implement - as opposed to the hand?

A tabla?

[Dujon] Yes, [irach] No, [CdM] su-ku-DON!! YES, a taiko. Have this pair of bachi.

Baci? Yum! *unwraps and eats*
That was not a lucky guess; I just have a long memory :-)
All right, this next one is probably best thought of as ABSTRACT with ANIMAL and VEGETABLE connections, although you might be able to make a case for ANIMAL with ABSTRACT and VEGETABLE connections

Begins with P?

Is it Malcolm's army approaching Dunsinane under cover of foliage cut from Birnam wood?

P-begun? Yes.
Branches of the military? No.

Phrase or saying?

A work of art?

A title of a movie or work of fiction?

A particular recipe?

Phrase or saying? No, or at least only if you adopt a very broad definition of that term.
A work of art? I realise now that I should really say that, as well as being abstract, this has abstract connections. The answer, as I am interpreting it, is not a work of art. The abstract connections include a work of art, although that is unlikely to be helpful.
Title of a movie/work of fiction? Both, as it happens, although that is also unlikely to be helpful. *some applause, but for the question rather than for the answer*
Recipe? No.

Was this invented by a specific person?

A branch of study or learning?

Invented by a specific person? No.
Branch of study? No.

Mythical / legendary?

Mythical/legendary? No.

Appears in a work of fiction?

Is the animal in question human?

Appears in a work of fiction? Undoubtedly in many. The principal abstract connection is also certainly referred to in works of fiction, though I know no specific examples.
Animal in question human? Yes.

As so often seems to happen, I'm finding it hard to give answers that don't mislead, so let me attempt to clarify. The words on the card have a fairly generic sense, and I am taking that as the main definition. However, the words on the card are more notable in reference to a particular abstract connection. Googling reveals that the words on the card have been used as a title for a book, a movie, and a painting, but none of these is the significant abstract connection.

A werewolf?

Werewolf? No.

Does the word "man" appear on the card?

Word "man"on the card? No. *tiny smattering of applause*

Do the words on the card describe a human condition?

Human condition? Not a human condition, but in their generic non-abstract sense, they do describe (an exemplar of) a class of humans.

Is the class of humans distiguished by some physical characteristic?

Physical characteristic? No.

Would this be more applicable to the female of the species?

Reference to angels?

Do the words on the card convey the vegetable element?

More applicable to women? I don't know any statistics but there is no obvious reason to think so.
Angelic? No.
Vegetable element on the card? Yes.

Does the vegetable element begin with P?

A Paper Tiger?

Does vegetable begin with P? Yes.
Paper Tiger? No. *some applause*

Is it only a paper moon?

Is the vegetable element paper?

Is the vegetable element papyrus?

Paper Chase?

Paper Moon? No.
Vegetable = paper? Yes
Papyrus? No.
Paper Chase? No.
Two clues, because I am feeling generous. First, the words on the card describe something less abstract than your guesses. Remember I said that this could also be described as Animal with Abstract/Vegetable connections. Second, the string of letters "paper" does appear on the card, but strictly speaking the word "paper" does not.

pDoes a word beginning with "paper" appear on the card?

pWord beginning with Paper? pYes.

Paperback Writer?

Dear INJ, that baton you took
It took me years to make, won't you take a look

Looks at baton, sees 'Lear' crossed out and 'CdM' written in its place
OK, we'll go for Mineral

Is there only one?

[Phil] Unique? - YES

A monument?

[Software] Monumental? - NO

Does it belong to one person?

[Tuj] Mine, all mine!? - NO

Earthly, terrestrial, or otherwise on this planet?

[irach] Third rockish? - YES

Is there metal involved?

A human artifact?

[cfm] Metal involved - NO, well, only sort of... *audience chuckles*
[Raak] Man-made? - NO

A disputed territory?

[Dujon] Disputed territory? - NO

Uluru?

[GL] Uluru? - NO

Watery?

Is it of substantial scientific interest?

Moving on a bit now

[CdM] Watery? YES - *applause*
[Raak] Scientifically interesting? - NO (IMO)

A lake?

[jim] mere, pond, tarn, inland sea? - NO

A geographical entity?

Begins with P?

[Phil] Geographical entity? - NO (by any reasonable sense of that term)
[Tuj] P......? *audience sits up as one* - NO *audience collapses, deflated*

Is it underground?

[Raak] Underground? - NO
As is traditional at about this point can I suggest you examine your assumptions.

Is the water actually what it is made of?

As opposed to "watery" just being taken to mean wet.

[jim] Made of water? - YES

Is it potable?

A glacier?

Is it located in a specific continent?

A Snowflake?

[Chalky] Drinkable? - NO
[Software] Glacier? - NO but *considerable audience applause*
[Tuj] - In a specific continent? - NO
[GL] Snowflake? - Nice idea, but NO

The Arctic ice cap?

The ice hotel?

The iceberg struck by the Titanic?

Any old iceberg?

An avalanche?

That's the way to do it!

Well - without beating about the bush - CdM is right.
It's the iceberg struck by the Titanic.
The point that people were missing and that I hoped to catch you on was that it no longer exists.
Take this baton before it melts.

MINERAL AND VEGETABLE (and also, by my best guess, ANIMAL, as well as having ANIMAL connections)

A manufactured thing?

Manufactured? Yes.

Begins with P?

Larger than the toaster size standard ?

Begins with P? Need you ask? Yes.
Bigger than a toaster? Yes.

Unique?

Partly made of wood?

Unique? No.
Partly wooden? Yes.

Is the mineral metal?

Is it a weapon?

Is it a vehicle?

Is it a tool?

Is it musical?

Metal? In part, yes
A weapon? No.
A vehicle? Yes *applause*
A tool? No.
Musical? No.

Is this 'vehicle' something that travels on water?

Aquatic? No.

Does it fly?

Is it more than 50 years old?

Aeronautic? No. (A few audience members, who chuckled quietly at the notion of this being aquatic, find this question even more amusing.)
More than 50 years old? Yes (although there are modern versions).

Is is restricted to a track?

A rickshaw?

Does it run on animal power?

A Phaeton?

On rails? No.
Rickshaw? No.
Animal powered? Yes (though not the more modern versions)
Phaeton? No. *smattering of applause* (but only a smattering; don't get too carried away)

Plough?

Plough? No.

Is the answer a form of public transport?

On the buses? No.

Is it a vehicle primarily for carrying goods?

Primarily for goods? Yes. *applause*

Ox-cart type of thingy?

Pantechnicon?

A milk float?

A Pantechnicon (or more precisely, a Pantechnicon van, which is what the original horse-drawn vehicles of the Pantechnicon company were called) is the correct answer. Would you like us to store this baton for you, or should we deliver it?

When do you want me to email you the answer?

Well, this is getting a bit embarrassing. But, since I had already thought of pantechnicon when I asked my penultimate question, I don't feel sufficiently awkward about setting another one.
So, the next one is MINERAL, with some Abstract connections

Unique?

Metal?

Whitney Houston's coffin?

Begins with P?

[Raak] Only one? - NO
[Phil] Metallic? - YES
[Dujon] The last resting place...? - NO (one of these days the pin in the encyclopedia method is going to work, but not today)
[Tuj] Pfirst? - Why, YES

A phone box?

[jim] The oeuvre of G G Scott? - NO

A ubiquitous object?

Bigger than a phone box?

Which was what I was going to ask first, but I thought I'd cut to the chase :)

[cfm] Can't get away from it? - NO
[jim] - Dimensionally excessive K2-wise? - NO

A toaster?

[Software] The other toaster question - NO

Naturally occurring?

A tool of some kind?

[Raak] Naturally Occurring? - NO
[jim] A tool? - NO

A decorative object?

[cfm] Ooh, innit pretty? - NO (though it/they may be found attractive by some)

Associated with a particular country?

Mass-produced?

Does it have moving parts?

[Tuj] One country? - YES
[CdM] Mass-produced? - YES
[Raak] moving bits? - NO

Is it a model of something?

[Raak] A model? - NO

A bell?

[Raak] Belly? - NO
As a help, I can expand on my particular country answer to Tuj. They are/were associated with and produced in one country, but have/had a wider presence.

Still mass-produced?

[Phil] Still in production? - NO (Thank you - that'll make it easier for me to write comments and clues)

Does the answer contain a brand or company name?

[jim] Branded? - NO (Well, actually, I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that it has been used as a brand name at some point somewhere, but that won't help you)

Smaller than a toaster?

[Phil] The first toaster question? - YES, smaller
In looking up the answer to jim's question I discovered this had been used as the name of an album, a book and a shop amongst other things but I can't see that helping much.

Associated with a European country?

[jim] Associated with European country? - YES * a few murmurs, but no dissent, among the audience*

Entirely metal?

[Phil] All metal? - YES *the audience are beginning to show some interest*

Is the abstract connection closely related to the country of origin?

Turkish?

Russian?

[Raak] We're thinking along the same lines, I think.

[cfm] Abstract connection related to country of origin? - Not especially, though there is some link
[Raak] Turkish? NO (I don't count that as European, despite Istanbul)
[jim] Russian? - NO (I see how your minds are working, but that's not the reason for the (very minor) audience reaction - The country of origin is fully and completely European)

A coin?

A peseta?

Here we go

[Raak] A coin? - YES *applause and even a couple of 'Huzzah's from the audience*
[Phil] Peseta? - NO *some more applause*

An Irish pound?

A currency in common usage today?

Can't take much longer

[jim] Taking a punt at a punt? - NO
[GL] In common use? - NO

Rendered obsolete by the Euro?

The pfennig?

Arrgh, I think I know the answer, but I can't bring myself to double-guess :(

[jim] The Belgian Drachma? - NO
[Phil] I bet you're right, so it's not the pfennig. I admire your restraint.

Ahem, the peso?

Well, that's a let-down

[Phil] Peso? - NO, that word is not on the card, but.....

LMAO - back to the drawing board!

A piece of eight?

Which amounts to almost the same thing ...

Oh sugar, beaten to it. Just what I was about to type

We have a winner!

[Phil]Well, it's always easier when you know the answer, but I think we're now at the cryptic crossword clue stage so that when you think of the answer, you know it's right.(simulposted)
[jim] You have just proved me right - The words on the card are Pieces of Eight (aka Peso de Ocho, aka Spanish Dollar)
Polly, take this baton over to Jim lad.

I'm actually kind of tempted to concede the win to Phil, since "peso" is so nearly there and we practically simul'd it. If you've got a clue lined up, Phil, you can take it if you want, otherwise I've got one I can do.

No, I haven't got one ready, so do go ahead, jim.

"Apres vous!" "Non, apres vous!"

OK, I am thinking of a ABSTRACT, with ANIMAL and MINERAL connections.

A kobold?

Is this a question?

Is Beauty Truth?

One day, someone will get a hole in one ... but ...

[Raak] NO, not a kobold.
[Tuj] If this is an answer ...
[GL] Only if the truth in question is particularly beautiful.

Human construct?

Associated with a particular country?

[CdM] YES, a human construct.
[Tuj] NO, not associated with a particular country.

Related to the arts?

[cfm] Depends how you define "the arts", but in a broad sense, YES, related to the arts.

A rock carving?

Ancient cave paintings?

Something that no longer exists?

[Dujon] NO, not a rock carving.
[Raak] NO, not ancient cave paintings neither
[Tuj] NO, it still exists.

Are the animal connection human?

Associated with a craft?

Is the mineral connection metal?

Begins with P?

Ach sorry, low on willpower.

[INJ] YES, human.
[cfm] I have heard it described as a craft, but if you mean handicraft, NO.
[CdM] YES, metal. some applause from the audience
[Tuj] NO, alas, does not begin with P.

A memorial?

A ritual?

Blacksmithing?

Body Piercing?

[Software] NO, not a memorial.
[Raak] NO, not a ritual.
[irach] NO, not blacksmithing.
NO, not body piercing.

Religious significance?

An Action?

A Statue?

[Raak] It can have, but not in any sense that I think is going to help you.
[INJ] In a certain sense yes, but as generally understood NO.
[GL] A statue would be mineral with abstract/animal connections, so NO.

A figurative expression?

Connected with communication?

Connected with personal relationships?

[Raak] YES, in that the words on the card denote the answer in a figurative rather than a literal sense, although the expression is not the answer.
[INJ] YES, again in a broad sense, connected with communication.
[Tuj] It frequently is, but need not be.

A speech act of some sort?

Is the metal connection a specific metal item?

An advertising sign?

[Raak] NO, not speech as such (although it can be involved, but generally isn't).
[Tuj] NO, not a specific item.
[Software] NO, not an advertising sign.

Does it have a dircect connection with computers?

Involves the written word?

[Dujon] NO, no direct connection with computers.
[INJ] NO, does not (directly) involve the written word.

Is the metal in question as single metallic element found in the Periodic Table of Elements (such as iron or copper or lead), as opposed to a combination or alloy (e.g. brass, bronze, gunmetal)?

An astronomical constellation?

[irach] NO, not a specific metal, elemental or alloyed.
[Raak] NO, not an astronomical constellation.

An emotion or state of mind?

Associated with a particular place?

[CdM] NO, not an emotion or a state of mind.
[Tuj] Certain kinds of it are associated with certain regions, but not exclusively, and I shouldn't say the answer as a whole was associated with a given place.

An organisation?

[Raak] NO, not an organisation, although it involves a large number of small organisations.

Freemasonry?

Connected to commerce, business, or economics?

[Raak] NO, not freemasonry.
When I said "large number of small organisations" they wouldn't normally be referred to in those words, I should point out.
[CdM] YES, but the business side isn't generally considered the important bit.

A form of badge denoting membership of an organisation/club and their ilk?

Heavy metal music?

I like that guess!

Makes the sign of the horns

[Dujon] NO, not a badge, because ...
YES! The words on the card are Heavy Metal. At the end of the game, I fling my baton out into the crowd, where it is caught by irach.

I found it quite difficult answering all the "connected with X" questions without being misleading, since of course it can be connected with just about anything, if somebody writes a song about it. Relationships and (in one form or another) religion are frequent themes. The "small organisations" I referred to above would, of course, normally be called "bands" :)

Okay then.... The next one is ABSTRACT with STRONG ANIMAL CONNECTIONS

A unicorn?

Are the animal connections human?

Anarcho-Syndicalism?

Surely, this time.

[Tuj] Not a unicorn.
[CdM] The animal connections are not human.
[ImNotJohn] Rats! Doggone it! No, not this time, either.

Is it more abstract than a rhetorical question?

[Phil] About as abstract, I would expect, although it is not a rhetorical question.

Begins with P?

[Tuj} No "P" in the beginning.

Is it from fiction?

That's the formalities out of the way then.

Are the animal connections rats and dogs?

[Tuj] Not from fdction.
[CdM] One of the animal connections is a dog.

Is it an event?

[Phil] The words on the card do describe an action, if that can be called an "event".

A well-known phrase or saying?

Related to something dogs do?

[ImNotJohn] Yes, a well known phrase.
[cfm] Yes, related to what a dog does (or should I say doesn't do).

Is the word 'bite' on the card?

The dog that didn't bark in the night?

Hair of the dog?

[Dujon] The word "bite" is not on the card
[ImNotJohn] See above, therefore, no.
[Software] Not the hair of the dog.
It may behoove one to consider my earlier response that one of the animal connections is a dog.

Raining cats and dogs?

[Chalky] No, no felines involved.

Is/are the other animal connection/s mammals?

Yes, the other animal connection is mammalian.

Let the dog see the rabbit?

Is the other animal a cat?

[ImNotJohn] No, no rabbits involved.
[Tuj] As indicated in my response to Chalky, above, there are no felines (including domesticated cats) involved.

"That dog won't hunt"?

"dog eat dog"

Maybe the other connection is a dog as well.

[cfm] Not "That dog won't hunt".
[Raak] Not "dog eat dog"; the other animal connection is not the dog, Canis lupus familiaris. Nevertheless, some dogged audience members do sit up and take notice.

Proverbs 26:11?

[Raak] No, not Biblically proverbial.

A wolf in sheep's clothing?

Does the word "dog" appear on the card?

Does it involve the idea of hunting?

A dog's dinner?

The dog's bollocks?

Well someone had to say it ...

[Phil] Not a wolf in sheep's clothing... (yet a few audience members give faint nods of appreciation)
[CdM} The word "dog" does indeed appear on the card.
[ImNotJohn] No, the words on the card do not involve the idea of hunting, yet there is a tangential connection.
[Raak] Not a dog's dinner.
[Chalky] No bollocks involved.

dog and pony show?

Time for a recap, perhaps - The answer is a well-known phrase that contains the word "dog'; does not refer to cannibalistic dogs; there is at least one other mammalian animal connection, non-human, which is not the domesticated dog Canis lupus familiaris or rabbits, or any Felidae; the phrase is non-Biblical; perhaps tangentially connected to hunting, and that the phrase "wolf in sheep's clothing" evoked a couple of faint nods of appreciation, as though tracking in the right direction.

[cfm]Not a dog and pony show.

A dog in the manger?

[Raak] Not a dog in the manger. (Remember, the phrase has another mammalian non-human animal connection in addition to "dog").

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog?

Related to Sheepdogs/shepherding?

[ImNotJohn] Not related to sheepdogs/shepherding.
[cfm] The pangram, "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" it is! A baton long enough to pole vault over the said lazy dog is duly handed off to cfm.

*lands, none too gracefully*
So let's try this:
MINERAL WITH ABSTRACT AND HUMAN CONNECTIONS

A diamond in the rough?

[irach] No hole in one, sorry. :-)

Hmmmm. None too gracefully indeed. Let's make that abstract with animal connections, which we now know are human. :-)

The Anarcho-syndicalist Society's crazy golf runners-up cup?

[cfm] Can you just clarify - is it still Mineral (with A & A) or is it just Abstract with Animal.

Begins with P?

I had to ask it this time, as it's one of those questions that works regardless of the confusion being cleared up.

Is the human connection animal?

A single individual?

Meaning, the mineral thing, rather than its connections.

[INJ] ASS cup? Nope. But Abstract and Animal, yes.
[Tuj] Next time, I Promise.
[CdM] *laughs*
[Raak] Yes. One individual.

Mineral = metal?

Owned by a specific person?

Is it extremely valuable?

[Software] To the best of my knowledge, sometimes yes, sometimes no.
[Tuj] Multiple owners. *Audience raises a collective eyebrow*
[Raak] Valuable, yes. Extremely? Depends on how much you have in your checking account, I suppose. But it ain't cheap.

I'm still not clear on your answer to INJ. This is MINERAL with ABSTRACT and ANIMAL connections; is that right?

An item of jewellery?

[CdM] So sorry. That is correct. Mineral with abstract and animal connections.
[Raak] To the best of my knowledge, no. *A few murmurs from the audience* *

Some sort of regalia?

Are computer/'phone screens pertinent to the answer?

Smaller than a toaster?

[Raak] No, nothing royal about it
[Dujon] [No, not at all.
[CdM] i am guessing yes, once in a rare while. But not usually.

I need another clarification. Raak asked if the mineral thing was a single individual, which I took to mean he was asking if it was unique, with only one instance in the world. You replied Yes. Am I misunderstanding your answer to Raak's question?

Invented in the last 200 years?

I would love to see video footage of the audience's response to my previous.

Related to arms or militaria?

[CdM] Sorry for the confusion. No, the mineral thing is not a single item. The animal connection is to a single individual. And thank you for clarifying.
[Tuj] Yes, invented in the last 200 years.
[INJ] No, not related to militaria.

Is the "single individual" the inventor of the item?

[Jim] Yes, the single individual invented the words on the card.

A communication device?

[Raak] No, not a communication device.

Is the inventor still alive?

Is the name of the inventor on the card?

[jim] No, the inventor is dead.
[INJ] Yes, the inventor's name is on the card.

Related to medicine?

Associated with a particular country?

[Raak] No, nothing medicinal. Though it might make you feel good to encounter it. :-)
[Tuj] Yes -- but not strongly so. I would guess that many people know the thing on the card but don't make that association.

Do you think that the typical morniverser owns one of these?

A household article?

[CdM] No, the average morniverser probably does not have one stashed out back.
[Raak]Yes, often but not always.

Functional as opposed to decorative?

[CdM] No, not functional as opposed to decorative.
You may wish to rephrase your question(s).

Is the first of these reputed to have been made for Tsar Alexander III?

[Dujon] No. We're not making omelettes. :-) Fun guess, though.

A timepiece of some sort?

[INJ] Yes, sometimes. I know of at least one instance.

Tiffany glass/window?

[irach] Yes! The words on the card are indeed Tiffany glass. *very carefully hands off a fabulous opalescent baton (signed!) to irach Don't drop it. :-)

Ooofff! It's tough lugging that glass baton all the way from 57th and Fifth Avenue after a heavy breakfast at Tiffany's ... so let me pause and consider the next puzzle... ah, yes...ABSTRACT with a MINERAL connection.

A Tiffany design?

[Raak] Not a Tiffany design.

The title of somthing?

Fictional object(s)?

Is the mineral natural?

[cfm] Not a title per se, but has been used as a title on occasion.
[GLogin] Not fictional object(s).
[Dujon] The mineral component is made up of natural elements.
...Upon capitulation, there is also an element/aspect of "Animal", without which the overall abstract element would be incomplete.

A human invention?

[Tuj] I guess the words on the card qualify as "a human invention".

Begins with P?

...more straightforwardly.

[Tuj] If you ignore an indefinite article in the beginning, yes it does in fact begin with "P".

Related to the arts?

[ImNotJohn] Unrelated to the arts.

Paperweight?

A geographical feature?

Does the mineral connection appear as one or more of the words on the card?

[Software] Not a paperweight.
[Raak] Not a geographic feature.
[cfm] The mineral connection is one of the words on the card.

Is the mineral metal?

Picking up on the answer to Dujon

[ImNotJohn] Yes, the mineral component is metallic.

Is it gold?

[Raak] Not gold.

A precious metal?

[ImNotJohn] Not a precious metal.

Is the metal connection the word on the card that begins with P?

Any reference to a weapon?

Connected to a particular person or group of people?

Is it an article described in a work of fiction?

[cfm] It is the metal connection word on the card that begins with "P".
[ImNotJohn] Not weaponry related.
[Tuj] Connected to all people.
[Kim] The metallic article itself is often mentioned in numerous works of fiction; yet the words on the cards are not directly related to a work of fiction.

[Hint- A standard question often asked for "abstract" categories has not as yet been asked in this case].

Is it bigger than the concept of a toaster?

Was that the one you meant?

Is it smaller than a hypothetical phonebox?

Related to a state of mind or emotion?

Fictional?

A human concept?

[ImNotJohn] Not the question I was thinking of...nevertheless, the metallic object in question is (considerably) smaller than a toaster.
{GLogin] See response above.
[cfm} Yes, related to a state of mind or emotion! (The snoozing audience awakes!)
[Raak] Not fictional.
[imNotJohn] Yes, a human concept.

Angels dancing on the head of a pin?

[ImNotJohn] No celestials or pins (or needles) involved.

A metaphorical expression?

[Raak] Not quite metaphorical, but yes, a relatively commonly used expression (with a metallic connection,related to a state of mind or emotion).

A penny for your thoughts?

[cfm] The expression, "A penny for your thoughts", it is! A newly minted penny is handed over to cfm to reward this mental acuity.

Oh. Er...thank you, Irach. I will try not to spend it all in one place.
So this one is ANIMAL with ANIMAL and ABSTRACT connections

Human?

[CdM] No, not human.

Also, upon further reflection, I think I must revise to say this one is ANIMAL and VEGETABLE with ANIMAL and ABSTRACT connections.

Toad-in-the-hole?

[Raak] No, no sausages involved.

Is at least one of the animal connections canine?

Begins with P?

[irach] No, no pups involved in either case.
[Tuj] No. And now I recall that I did promise. Ooops. :-(

Are either of the animals mammals?

Yes. Both are mammmals

Are either of the mammals ruminants?

Are either of the animals commonly eaten by humans?

*audience applauds politely*
[irach] Yes, one of the mammals is frequently ruminant.
[CdM] Yes, one of the mammals is commonly eaten by humans.

Is this the name of a dish?

Hamburger?

[Raak] No, no culinary connection
[Software] No, see above.

Is the abstract connection religious?

[Raak] No, not religious.

Does the word 'Cow', 'Cattle' 'Beef' or 'Steak' appear on the card?

[INJ] No, none of those words appear on the card.

Counting sheep jumping over a wooden stile/fence?

Is the animal alive, at least when it's being the thing on the card?

[irach] No (sheepishly).
[Raak] Depends which animal. No, the primary animal element is not alive when it's being the thing on the card. Yes, the animal connection is alive.

Is the non-ruminant mammal in question typically a predator of the ruminant one?

[irach] Yes, the non-ruminant animal often eats the ruminant animal.

Is the "non-ruminant" mammal that eats the ruminant mammal human?

Flogging a dead horse?

[irach] Yes! That non-ruminant mammal is human.
[Raak] No, not that common expression. Nor (hint) any other common expression.

Is the vegetable wood?

Is the human component a specific individual, or a class/group of person? [cfm] There is a little confusion here, because in the very start, in response to the first question you indicated the animal was not human. Did you change the original "words on the card" after capitulation?

[Raak] Yes. There is often a wood component.
[irach] The words on the card have not changed. The thing named on the card is not human. The animal connection noted from the beginning is human. Does that clarify?
No, not a specific individual nor a specific class or group of humans. However, in the sense that the humans are connected to the thing named on the card, they are involved in the same activity.

Is the vegetable paper?

[Raak]No. Paper is not involved. When there is a vegetable component, I believe it is safe to assume the vegetable is wood.

Is the the "primary animal element which is not alive when it's being the thing on the card" leather?

[irach] Yes, the element is leather. Simply stated :-)

A drum?

[Raak] No, not a drum. *a few rhythmic claps from the audience*

Some other sound-making instrument?

Tamborine?

[Raak] No. Not a sound making instrument.
[Software] No. Not a tambourine. *more claps and murmurs from the audience*

Is the leather stretched over a wooden frame?

Connected with dancing?

[Raak] No, the leather is not framed.
[Dujon] Yes, connected with dancing. *there is some dancing in the aisles*

Dancing shoes?

[Raak] No, that is not the answer. But yes, the thing named on the card could be characterized as a dancing shoe.

Surely not a leather clog, eee by gum?

[Software] No, not a leather clog.

Leather spats?

[irach] No, not spats. But you and Software and Raak might want to....er...you know....put your feet...wait...i mean...heads together.

Dancing spats?

Does the answer have another meaning which relates, for instance, to the movement of water?

Drum mallets?

[GL] No, not dancing spats.
[Dujon] No, there is no other meaning to the words on the card.
[Software] No, not drum mallets.
Here's what we know for sure -- that the words on the card represent an item made of leather and wood. The animal connection is human. The item(s) are connected with dancing and could even be characterized as dancing shoes. Drums and tambourines drew appreciative reactions from the audience. Do you think it might be helpful to explore some of the abstract connections?

Tap shoes?

Does the abstract term refer to a particular form of dancing, e.g. tap, flamenco, calypso?

[GL] No, not tap shoes.
[irach] Yes--although I am having a little bit of trouble with the word "refer" in your question. The abstract connection(s) call to mind a particular form of dancing, without naming it directly. The words on the card do so, as well.

Blue suede shoes?

[Raak] No. Not blue suede shoes. *audience applauds encouragingly*

Are the words on the card connected with a specific performance piece?

[Raak] No, they are not connected with a specific performance piece. However, they are connected with a specific style of performance piece.

Wooden heeled stiletto shoes for dancing tango?

Is the style specifically associated with one country?

Soft-shoe shuffle?

Reel shoes?

[irach] No, not that kind of shoe. But shoes for dancing is still a valid general concept.
I am not sure if this will be helpful but I think I should add a note that the words on the card name something that may also be constructed from synthetic materials.
[INJ] Yes. Originally, the style of performance piece was strongly associated with one country. Then performers in a second country made a very strong contribution and a second strong association was created.
[Chalky] No, not a soft shoe shuffle.
[Raak] No, not reel shoes.

Ballet shoes?

Bluegrass clog dancing?

[Chalky] No, not ballet shoes.
[irach] No, not bluegrass clog dancing or bluegrass clog dancing shoes. But you are getting warm geographically. :-)

South American?

[Raak] No, not South American.

Is the type of shoe in question generally (or exclusively) worn by a female dancer rather than a male one?

[irach] Yes, this particular style of footwear was far more likely to be worn by female dancers. I wouldn't swear to exclusively, though.

A form of dancing in the United States?

[irach] Yes, though not exclusively, the foremost association of the words on the card (and associated abstract concepts) is with the U.S.

Square dancing?

[Raak] No, not square dancing.

Can-can?

[irach] No-no, not the can-can (or can-can footwear.)

Flamenco dancing shoes?

Line Dancing?

[Software] No, not Flamenco dancing shoes. I think we covered that earlier.
[GL] No, not line dancing per se, though I believe there have been instances of this type of dance which involved lining up for a set of choreographed steps.
Here's a recap of what we presently know: the words on the card represent a type of footwear worn all but exclusively by women, while dancing in a particular way that is associated with another particular type of performance that is most closely associated with the United States but which also became associated with another country when performers from that country made a very strong contribution. Drums and tambourines drew favorable responses from the audience, which could suggest that what distinguishes the style of performance or dance is its rhythm or beat. You may also wish to consider that the kind of clothing worn on the foot is not always called a shoe. :-)

Footwear connected to belly dancing with drums and tambourines?

[irach] No, not related to belly-dancing.

Connected to salsa/mambo?

[irach] No, not connected to salsa, mambo, cha cha, tango or any other Latin-identified style.
(I'm getting the feeling that the words on the card never made it too far outside of the U.S.)

Related to any sort of African dancing?

[Raak] Yes. There is a strong African American influence/connection and I expect that influence traces back to Africa. *question engenders exuberant applause*

But definitely not clogs or taps?

I've googled this, and that's all I can find.

[Raak] No, not clogs or taps.
*Wonders, should I offer a few suggestions to the players? Is that how this works?*

Is the vegetable (often wood) connection previously referred to part of the footwear, or is it an entirely separate entity related to the words on the card?

[irach] The wood is not a separate thing; it is what the heel of the footwear often is or appears to made from.

I'll try "jazz dancing shoes" although the tambourine connection is rathe remote.

[irach] No, not jazz dancing shoes. The word "shoes" does not appear on the card at all.

pattens?

[Raak] No, not pattens. I had to look that one up; like the words on the card, they are not so much in fashion these days. Come to think, it might help to keep in mind that dancing, music and fashion all change with the times.

sabots?

Running out of synonyms for "clog"...

[Raak] No, not sabots. (Uhmmmm, did I say they were clogs?)

A type of sandal?

[Raak] No, not a sandal. *audience applauds this line of inquiry nonetheless*

A boot?

Stilts or something similar that raises the participant a distance off the ground?

I'm pretty certain this is going to be a subject that would annoy Rosie;-)

[CdM] Yes. A boot. *audience cheers as if its team has just won the world cup*
[INJ] No, not stilts. But yes, I have been expecting the hand of Rosie to come and smite me any moment now. :-)

Buskins?

[Raak] No, not buskins.

Gumboots?

[Chalky] No, not gumboots. *a minor hullabaloo, however, arises from the audience*

Related to Mariachi/zapateado?

Related to cheerleading?

[INJ] No, not related to Mariachi/zapataedo.
[Raak] Yes, I can think of at least one professional cheer leading squad I associate with this footwear. (However, the footwear was originally more connected with the runway than with running backs.) *Texans in the audience nod, approvingly*

Gaucho boots?

[Chalky] No, not gaucho boots.

Sequined cowgirl boots ( a la Dallas Cowboys' cheerleaders? thigh-high, or otherwise?)

Ballet shoes?

[irach] No, not sequined cowboy boots. (but the DCC connection is a good one...)
[software] No, not ballet shoes.

Were these boots in fashion in the second half of the twentieth century?

(picking up on your fashion comment earlier)

[CdM] Yes, originiated in the mid-20th century. *audience members rock in their seats! roll in the aisles!*

Go-go boots?

Not sure why I keep guessing - I have no desire to be in the chair next time round. Guess I'm intrigued ... and if the solution turns out to be ridiculously obscure ... I can then 'do a Rosie' [sans swearage] :-D

[Calky] Hallelujah, yes! *gratefully passes one white patent leather baton to Chalky (while doing the Froog)*

None the wiser

Can't find any reference to these as either dance-specific or made of leather and wood (wikipedia refers to them in purely fashion terms and often/mostly made of plastic - which is what I would have guessed). Can someone point me at a helpful reference. Not annoyed, you understand, I just stopped guessing because I'd explored everything I could given the information available and I'd like to know how I could have got there.
Oh, and:

[INJ] Alas, I didn't check wikipedia before I chose the words on the card. My bad--I will remember to do so should I ever be handed the baton again. I relied on my memory of my first pair of go go boots: they where white patent leather and had a stacked wooden heel. I believe I answered the question about dancing shoes early on by saying the the item on the card could be characterized as a dancing shoe without saying it was a dancing shoe directly; I thought I was giving the best answer possible. Later when I realized that it was limiting everyone's thinking, I tried to draw attention to the fashion connection. I was surprised how few questions focused on the style of music connected with the dancing (particularly after some pretty direct hits and/or hints e.g. American-originated, distinguished by its beat, African American influence, etc.) or (until CdM) inquired whether the shoes were currently or historically popular. Anyway--while I am very glad you are not annoyed, INJ--still I am apologetic. This was a round of Painfully Difficult AVMA. Sorry.

Oh...and

Ah ... Ooo-Kaaaaay

Thanks cfm - don't feel you have to apologise. It's tough in the chair.

I'll have a go ...

ANIMAL, MINERAL & VEGETABLE

Is it unique?

I could have sworn I posted this helpful reference for INJ yesterday, but I guess I must have hit preview instead of stand, or something.

Noah's Ark?

[irach] Surely that would be ANIMAL, ANIMAL, MINERAL, and VEGETABLE?

[CdM] Is it unique? YES
[irach] Noah's Ark? NO :)

Is it extant?

[cfm] I've genuinely learnt a couple of things¹ from your question, so no need to apologise.

1. Although it's at least partly my era I didn't know that go-go was actually a style and I didn't know the boots had any descriptive name.

[CdM] Not that helpful a reference to look up in an open office!

Begins with P?

Bad news, I'm back...

[INJ] Extant? YES
[Tuj] P-word? NO

Salty bacon crisps?

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