Previewing my move meant I didn't notice/wasn't alerted to the fact I had been simuplosted. Blob's explaniation is far more eloquent than mine! sorry!

Foreign words are often used - but generally only tiddlers, such as "The French" for LE or LA (possibly LES), or "With German" for MIT.

[Lib] I did the same just now. ... And of couerse I meant "knew" not "new"
[Lib again] How to do hyperlinks :
<A HREF="www.thisisthesite.com/thisisthepage.htm">This is what I want it to say</A>

Thanks Blob. Testing my new found hyperlink skill to send ferdle to this aforemetnioned page.

I'll bear in mind that when previewing you're not alerted to a simulpost. Before I can make the necessary changes though, I'll need to sort out my laptop's hard disk because it has various versions of different pages that are stored on a range of servers. At the risk of upsetting the Breadmaster I think I'll need to work out how to set up virtual servers in apache to solve all my problems (notably, the DNS name of my laptop changes according to which network I connect it to).

Meanwhile, the cryptics. I can recommend two books. One is 'Cryptic Crosswords and How to Solve Them' (published I think by Chambers - you can search Amazon for example). The other is Don Manley's Crossword Manual, linked to above. The former is better for jumping in. Basically it lists the devices, and then gives some graded puzzles, with the amount of help diminishing as the book progresses. My main gripe is that the authors do like (a) to show off how clever they are; and (b) literary allusions rather than give you practical advice to clue-solving. Manley's book is much more thorough, but as he treats things more from a historical perspective, you'll find yourself dealing with Victorian mindbenders before getting into the cryptics proper. However, this book does offer an insight into the mind of a setter, which is invaluable.

One thing I dislike is microclassification of clues. Since pretty much every clue involves a combination of devices the only classification is:

• Single definition: usually cryptic, or relying on a pun.
• Double definition: what it says on the tin. One definition might be more cryptic than the other.
• Definition + device: where the device is basically a set of instructions that tell you how to make the desired word.

Because you normally have two indications to the solution, it's very rare that there's any ambiguity in the clue. Although the definition could be as vague as "country" the chances are the device points only to one possible country. In that sense, I find cryptics easier than quick crosswords. On the other hand, the range of words used is often wider, so that makes it harder again.

My all time favourite clue was suggested in an excellent book I read on cryptic crossword solving.

GEGS (9,4)
Answer:(Highlight to reveal hidden text)scrambled eggs*

[BtD] Which featured in a particularly good episode of "Drop the Dead Donkey" if I recall correctly.

[rab] Yes, Cryptics ought to be easier than "Quick" crosswords really, as you're getting two clues in one. Doesn't really work like that though - coz. firstly it could be either end that you're looking for - plus the definition itself is not necessarily straight forward. For example (again off the top of my head, so not necessarily too good), Great Persian holds quiet land (6) might be the cryptic clue, whereas the quick would probably be along the lines of Island country (6). The difference being that whilst the Quick is too vague to be able to pinpoint the country in question - it does not require you to know anything about Persians - and points you to the land being required rather than the Persian himself.
Re GEGS, that was my Dad's favourite clue too - and he told me about it, ooh, thirty years ago - so it's quite an old one.

[Blob] This, of course, it what makes one puzzle "easier" than another in my book. For example, whilst the Everyman crossword (Observer) has a tendancy towards irritatingly vague clues, it doesn't a great deal of "general" knowledge - it's helpful to know the odd place name, or big names in various fields but nothing too out-of-the-ordinary. Contrarily, the Private Eye crossword is billed as "difficult", but I complete it about as often as the Everyman (an "easy" crossword). This, I think, is largely because the allusions are generally related in some way to the magazine (Brenda and Brian, for example, refer to the Queen and Prince Charles respectively) rather than to some obscure ode written by a 17th century poet I've never heard of. Horses for courses. I would like to be able to do the Times, or an Arucaria, but doubt I shall ever be able to scale such heights.

[Blob, again] I find that, with practice, and if you're used to a particular setter's style, identifying the definition part of the clue can be fairly straightforward.

[Blob, Lib, et al] Thanks for that, will look over it properly in the morning. Did I mention I never learnt how to play chess either? But don't feel you have to explain here :-)

Just returned home - so it's good to catch up with the cryptic chat. I attempt the Times crossword most days but can only usually complete with the aid of some very clued-up chums and has become part of our 'early doors' at the pub ritual. Coincidentally, 'GEGS' was also a favourite of my Dad, bless 'im - and brings to mind his almost child-like enthusiasm for the infamous 'HIJKLMNO [5]' clue.

[flerdle] Right then - there are 16 pieces on each side - 8 pawns ..... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[rab] I certainly agree that you get used to certain setters' styles. No doubt about it. I'm afraid I have to admit that the cryptic I do regularly is the, ahem, Daily Mail (my wife's choice, honest) - which I actually rather like (the crossword that is, not the bloody paper) - some of its clues make my Boulder, Colorado one look positively officious by comparison. I can normally rattle it off in about 20 minutes - but every now & then, I get a setter who's on a completely different wavelength (or planet) and it takes me ages.

[Chalky]Not seen that one before - What a truly excellent riddle, initially !

[Blob] So it's new to you? Out of interest, how long did it take you to solve it?

[Chalky] Just before Blob answers, I've seen it before doing the rounds as a dingbat at quiz nights.

Ah - dingbats. That poor relation. Puzzles for the masses. Well, at least it keeps a classy clue 'alive'. Incidentally, the craze for dingbats - something else that the .. erm .. estimable Daily Mail has to answer for?
dingbat [U S slang]n. something whose name one has forgotten, or does not want to use: a foolish or eccentric person: a tramp: money. Adj. [Austr. & N Z coll.] daft, crazy. [Austr. & N Z coll.] the dingbats: delirium tremens.
Such provenance says it all.

Not too long - the brevity of the answer (just five letters) meant it had to be some clever way of reading the clue, so I just read it to myself in several ways and got there in a minute or so. But that's not to say it might not have taken me a while - perhaps I've seen something similar before, dunno.

O (4,6)

Dunno 'bout Martha's. I got the HIJKLMNO one pretty much immediately when I saw it, but it was in the Cryptic Crosswords and How to Solve Them book as part of a special feature on weird clues, so my mind was already pointed in the right direction. One that I saw in a Grauniad crossword, and don't actually think is that great a clue (for reasons I'll explain later) is "K (7)".

[MF] That one is my favorite clue. :-) I was reading down through the game and was about to post it, until I saw that you had got there first. Although I think the clue should actually be
O? (4, 6).
And here's a clue mentioned in the Sandy Balfour book that I recently reviewed at Orange, which although not perfect, you have to admire:
Bust down reason? (9).

Stop putting damn clues and no answers! Some of us are thick, you know!

Would that be (Highlight to reveal hidden text) full circle ?

Round number.

How about open letter?

Can't get that one - not enough letters for Potassium...

[rab] If it's Rufus, this must be Kelvins - if it's Enigmatist, I haven't got a chance :o)
No-one's got mine yet, and I don't think the "?" helps at all. Like HIJKLMNO, there's no definition involved.
As for "Bust down reason", I know this and I wouldn't've got it in a million years. At least, not without some letters.

Is O (4,6) like v (6,2,7) ??

Oh and is K Weekend?

Boolbar] I thought the same - but wouldn't the clue be in lower case, if that were the case? [MF] I'm still flummoxed by the 'O' clue but have a hunch it's more to do with numbers than letters.

What, Middle of Kelvins or something? Sadly no. Well done on K though.
[Chalky] Yes and no. Unhelpfully.

The Weekend one reminds me of one we had on Cryptic Stations which was e This was Mile End - though I, like Chalky was put off by the capitalization - and was looking for a "head" or "top" answer.
[MF] I thought Raak had got O - you're saying not ?

Nuts - that "head" was supposed to be hidden.

Crosswords are generally filled in in all upper case, so I think "K" is valid. For "bust down reason", would this be something to do with not wearing a bra? I can't think of a 9-letter way of expressing that though.

Maybe lactating?

Boolbar - you are correct on this one. But the reason I dislike it is because (a) it's ambiguous - the answer could just as easily be bookend; (b) there's no definition, purely a device; and (c) even as a device it's flawed because it's not indicated (e.g. with the phrase "to a setter"). These "inverse clues" are becoming more prevalent, but I don't think they're big or clever.

[Raak] That is true. You can make up several answers that match some of these clues - like O (4,6) = Come second. My 'v' is much the same, but is a famous schoolboy joke.

[Raak] There's a simple way of expressing bra in 9 letters it's brassière. But apart from the bust bit, I can't see why it should be the answer.

[Bb] Centre of Gravity, ha ha. No, mine isn't the start, end or middle of anything. Or the second. Or even "a letter in the word 'open'".
[Blob] I said not when I said "No-one's got mine yet".

[MF] Too direct a clue there, Martha ! ;-)
Quick joky one : çontrol mechanism (6,6)

BTW, there is a definition for "Bust down reason" - it's not just a device. I can't tell if there is for "Case bust", which could just mean something that encases a bust ie. "Playtex Brassiere", which is wrong.

[MF] No. Slightly more amusing in a schoolboy humour sort of way.

[Blob] I think brassière would be clued as "Bust up reason (9)". [MF] "Case bust" wasn't meant to be a clue.

And the (7,9)??

[MF]Just an allusion to the clues I was commenting on. But if you can find a solution anyway, don't let me stop you! Am I anywhere on the right lines with my solution to "Bust down reason"?

Yes.

Down Reason should be given away by CdM, but as for my "O", the first letter is L.

CdM] does the answer begin with 'S'?

[Raak] You're nowhere near with "lactating".

[MF] Is it Love letter ?

[Bb] That's the most convincing one I've seen so far. I think I understand the bust clue, but that doesn't bring me any nearer to solving it!

I like the Bb one aswell. I'm attempting to conceal my bust solution - would the 'preview' show the word as hidden? Not sure if I'm tagging correctly.

[Bb] Congratulations!
[Raak] You're definitely thinking about it the right way. I agree with Martha that it's a very hard clue (I didn't get it when I was reading the book.) The first letter is B.
[Blob] I'm not sure if you are referring to a different occasion, but I clued "Mile End" as
More? (4,3)
with the idea that it should be read as "M or E"

I BET SHE LIKES IT DOGGY STYLE ASWELL. THAT CATALINA BINT I MEEN, NOT THE QUEEN MUM GORD BLESS 'ER.

I'm sure she does. Meanwhile, CdM's 'more' clue would have Ximenes turning is his grave.

Can you confirm if the clue should be read as a double definition, 'bust' and 'down reason', the whole therefore being something that would make you depressed, either through being broke or broken? Thanks. (Hmmm... sees the appeal of a MCiOS-u-like hidden-text feature).

[rab] Quite so on the hidden text: goes double with skins where the background colour can vary dramatically.

Yes... <hide>the clue should be read as a double definition</hide>

And, irritatingly, no... <hide>Nothing to do with depression - this may be a clue too far, but it's not "bust 'down reason'", but rather "'bust down' reason"</hide>
HTH. (But not really.) :oP

[rab] You're absolutely right about "More?" -- I am of the school that is generally Ximenean, but will make an exception for a good enough clue. Which "More?" isn't -- and I think I acknowledged as much when I set it. As for the bust clue, I don't think you are on the right track. The structure of the clue is: essentially double definition, but with each word having a different sense in the two definitions. One of the definitions clues the answer, the other clues a phrase.

Sorry -- just got caught by the same preview/simulpost problem...

I still think it ought to be 'strapless' rightly or wrongly.

[CdM, Martha] Thanks for the help without managing to give the game away - I'm not sure if I'll get this. The preview/simulpost problem is noted, and I'll try and sort it out at the weekend.

On the plus side, it does mean, CdM, that you're preview problem a while back was a one off.

I'm wondering if it's time to put Mrs Trellis to bed.

I did think of a couple of game ideas - but both have been slightly started on the other MC sites.
(1) Author Imposters Tag Wrestling - A story is told by different authors, each trying to guide the story in their style and choice of characters. Stephen King, Enid Blyton and Shakespeare can nuke it out!
(2) Animal Diaries - The animals have a game of MC - as told from extracts in their diaries.
(3) Or something cryptic.

I was going to remark that the following are currently on my banned list: imposters, combined, bad-tempered, chivalrous, Lord Byron, Bad HTML, ostrich, ham(p)ster and Spartacus.

And I want to know what that <blink>f*cking</blink> hampstrich has done with my bicycle. Please.

I'm Spar . . . oh sorry rab, I'll just go away then. *shuffles off*

[Bool] There's already a slot free at Orange, if rab doesn't like those ideas.

[X-philes] "Flying heart doctors" A-O-I-I (This is a real one that I can't get.)

AEOLIAN would fit from the flying point of view if the final I was wrong... but as for doctors. Isn't HEART sometimes used for L? as in I [HEART] NY?

...but I'm 100% on the second I. (It's from "Oriflamme".) I think it must be "Amorini", ie. "cupids", but it doesn't look right.

I spose "doctors" because they 'doctor' people's hearts, ie. screw around with them. Although since they're sticking them with arrows, I wouldn't hire them myself.

I was about to suggest amorini - see here but I still can't quite make it add up.
[CdM] Re Mile End - no it was a clue eons ago - not yours.
No-one's done my little çontrol mechanism (6,6) yet.
As for the bust thing - I'm completely stumped.