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Obscure vault 99 (7)
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It's the cryptic crossword discussion game. Tease each other with clues, help each other with the dailies, educate the beginners, whatever.
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Oh an a few attempts at solving :
[Raak] (1) PURLIEUS ?
[rab] (3) SPANK THE MONKEY ? If not, then Coat
None
Ah - sorry - I now realise that Darren had solved Raak's first (and that mine was wrong) - if I'd read rab's simmulpost then I'd've realised sooner.
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[Blob] You're bang on (ahem) with rab's: SPAN (range) K (king) THEM (the others) ON KEY (in tune).
Red-faced
Sorry, couldn't resist it!
obscure times
Please can someone explain why [hidden answer] ENTICE is the probable solution to this clue 'Person bound to learn to sacrifice pawn and rook to offer temptation (6). Letters E_T_C_ already secured. [The Times Crossword - Weds]. Damned if I can work it out.
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[Chalky] Here is the explanation: Person bound to learn=PRENTICE. Sacrifice pawn (P) and rook (R) to leave ENTICE. To offer temptation=ENTICE (straight def). There you go.
being shown the light
Ah - many thanks, kind sir. Didn't realise that PRENTICE was aphetic for APPRENTICE and if I hadn't been so lazy a quick peek in the dictionary would have told me that.
Eye Crossword 241
This crossword pretty much did itself last night, but I don't fully understand two of them. (Answers in square brackets).
  • Archer's thing? Yes, with or without dash (12) [BULLSHITTING]
  • US would-be persuaders of the continuing need for persuaders (3,5) [GUN LOBBY]
The former has an obvious main definition - I don't get the device. The latter looks like a single definition, but I just don't get it.

Meanwhile the same puzzle includes (8) (Geddit?) which should be obvious in the light of our recent discussions.

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[rab] Re-archer: I assume the idea is that it is a double definition. With a dash (hyphen), it can be read as bulls-hitting, which is what archers do. Without, it is what Jeff does. And I've seen "clueless" done that way before, more or less.
Archole
[CdM] Thanks - I've got so used to reading 'without' as the opposite of 'within' I forget it can also mean the opposite of 'with'. Also I should have realised this: Cyclops has clued this word in this kind of way before.
Archery
I think that clue would be improved by being simply Archer's thing. Like the bust down reason example, it makes the entire clue simultaneously the definition and the cryptic indication.
None
Well, since BULLS-HITTING isn't a common phrase as far as I'm aware (unlike BULLSHITTING) you'd probably need to write it as Archer's thing? with a question mark.
a new one
The game is subintervention. Any clue? (7, 5, 6-4)
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[CdM] How about OBSCURE VAULT NINETY-NINE?
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Yup. :-)
a little late,
but a better clue might have been:
Hereby ruin sonnet? I'ven't a clue, sorry. (7, 5, 6-4)
Well, if CdM can do new ones...
Shouldn't be hard... Take on muse, upset as before (6)
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[Darren] ASSUME.
The story so far
There appear to be seven currently outstanding:
  • An end to land-mines ! Her idea caused split (8) (Blob)
  • This clue might be: "500. Follows solid containing volume of mute's heart" (10) (rab)
  • Poster confused near narrow road (6) (Chalky)
  • Doctor's wrapped up in umbilical cord (MF)
  • Small animal run over by learner driver (6) (rab)
  • Twisted small mammal eats a chopped nut (6) (Raak)
  • Presume the leader is back in place (8) (Blob)
Perhaps some further hints would be in order. Mine contains a misdirection: "Twisted" is the definition part, not a sign of an anagram.
None
Raak's one has been bothering me for some time now. Some ideas I've had have been TURNED, TURBAN, TRUANT but none of them really seem right. I'm sure when the real answer comes up I'll feel really stupid for missing it. Some explanations of those ideas: I'd realised the "Twisted" misdirection quite early on. Presumably the letters of "nut", chopped (by which I assume anagrammed or split up or both), are in there somewhere, so it comes back to the small mammal. For TURBAN (and yes that's not a great answer for "Twisted") it would be "RAB" (heh) which could be a small form of RABBIT. Very messy, that one. TURNED it would be RED, which I covered above. TRUANT would be RAT, but is TRUANT an answer for "Twisted"? Still, Raak, if you'd be so kind, could you tell me if I'm anywhere near the right lines here?
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Oh, and rab's "500" one was solved above, iirc.
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Oh, and Chalky's is DARREN but uses a rather naughty indirect anagram.
Chopped nuts
[Darren] "Chopped" in this case means beheaded, rather than rearranged. The answer is a fairly uncommon word.
Solvent
I believe Martha's Doctor was also solved, by CdM if I recall.
mine, all mine
And the landmines one was also solved, by MF. And I could have sworn that some one had also posted the answer to Chalky's a while back, but maybe that was my imagination. I know I solved it and then didn't post the answer for some reason. So only the last three of Raak's list are outstanding.
Raak's one!
I've got it: it's VOLUTE, and thanks for the hints.
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I'd like to have a stab at Blob's - is it THEORISE? (I wouldn't be surprised if it was wrong though.)
my clue
Raak copied the buggy v1.0 of my outstanding clue. It's:
Small animal said to be run over by learner driver (6)
None
Is Rab a learner driver? If so, I wondered if it could be RABBIT (that is, Rab-hit)... just me clutching at straws again, I suppose.
Provisions
No. It doesn't require anything outside general knowledge - although it could be a rubbish clue. There is a big clue in the amendment. The definition is 'driver'.
rab's clue
Been thinking about this one for ages now - the small animal combined with the learner might suggest the word: GOLFER - GOPHER with 'L' a driver is used in golf, etc etc. I'm having a problem, however, with the phrase 'run over' . If I'm correct perhaps you can explain the last bit of hidden text.
A commentary upon rab's clue
[Chalky] I believe you've got it: Small animal = GOPHER. Small animal said = GOFER. "Run over by learner" means insert an L, hence GOLFER, who drives from the tee.
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[Raak] Thanks. 'run over by' as an insertion indicator is new to me, but the rest is much as I thought. Have we solved all the outstanding ones now? If so, before the serious stuff begins again, here's a little light-hearted diversion:
Be alert when one's aurally deviating? (5, 2, 4, 4)
Not sure of the technical term ...
[Chalky] Well I reckon that must be Prick up ones ears (or "your" for "ones" - but "ones" is commoner in Xwd answers).
Still my Presume the leader is back in place (8) to do. rab may well complain that the penultimate word is unnecessary and confusing, so you can ignore it if you like.
Coconut
[Chalky] Have a coconut! My understanding about the use of terms like run over is that it's ok if it could be taken in the intended crossword sense without too much difficulty. This might be on the edge of fair play, but lenience may be granted as it carries on the English language sense of the clue, and strengthens the misdirection of "driver" as a controller of automotive transport. Well, anyway.
blathering on a bit . . .
[Blob] Nice one. Have you seen this clue before? My late father was convinced he was the originator. I just adapted it a little. BTW - The 3rd word is 'YOUR' which I feel is more idiomatically natural ['ONE'S' is perhaps too formal?] and besides, I wanted to use 'one's' in the clue giving 15 letters to strengthen the anagram red herring.I shall now take a break from work and give some thought to your outstanding clue, unless someone has posted the answer while I've been faffing around.

[rab] Cheers. It was quite a relief to see that some literary license *can* be taken when indicating insertions etc. It would be awfully dull if we had to adhere to a strict list of accepted words/phrases. Cavalierism is good. Can we have some more clues? I'm learning lots.

None
Punctuation, endlessly one group (9)
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[Chalky] Heh, I doubt you'd learn much from my clues.
(5,2,2,4)
I once saw that clued, in a book on crosswords I once read, as
Pay attention, or a new sexual perversion? (5,2,4,4)
A little help
If this was really a crossword, then you would probably have a few letters in my clue by now - so how about ...

Presume the leader is back (in) place (8)
_ O _ I _ I _ N

Answer
Well it's obviously POSITION = POSIT (presume) + ION (Iliescu, Romanian leader). The in doesn't bother me - you need link words occasionally and you get used to ignorning them. However you've exposed my pet hate, albeit one which I don't have time to expand upon as I need to go to try and reverse the effects of a weekend's drinking with a session at the pool.
None
I don't get that. I mean, I follow POSIT but not how you get Ion Iliescu from just "the leader" - is he the only leader? Perhaps this has some connection to rab's pet hate, whatever that is?
Ka-ching
[Darren] You got it! In order to avoid the Tippex® effect, I shall assume that everyone's had a look at this and shall assume that Darren and my reasoning is correct. The problem is that "the leader" does not define "ion". I know we often get "the girl" etc in crosswords but we simply shouldn't. As Darren points out, Ion is not "the leader" he is "a leader". So the definite article should be made indefinite, or dropped completely. The importance of articles in clues really should not be overlooked.

But this is only part of the problem: "leader" is simply far too vague an indication for "ion". You have no idea as to what kind of leader to look for, nor how many letters it might be. This renders any kind of investigation into what it might be utterly futile, leaving you only with 'presume' and 'place' left to hint as to what the solution might be. You could just about get 'posit' as the common ground between these two words, so the clue might just about be ok as a 'filler' where you can be sure that the solver will have got some of the intersecting letters. But as a solvable clue in its own right - I think we've demonstrated it's too vague.

So my pet hate is the use of overly vague indications for components of the solution. Vague definitions are fine: that's rather the point. Words with many different meanings are also fine: setters should ruthlessly exploit these as much as possible. Manley suggests that "point" for any point of the compass, or "many" for any roman numeral is too vague. I think that you can get away with this: there are, after all, only about 16 points, so your search is reasonably restricted. However, Manley seems quite happy with the use of "boy" to mean "DES", "SID", "TIM", "IAN", ... and about 3000 other possibilities which I find inconsistent to say the least. I try and avoid puzzles with boys and girls in because I know I'm not going to get those clues: the Everyman used to be very fond of this kind of thing, but seems to have bucked its ideas up recently.

In the case of Blob's clue, you don't need to stoop so low. Here are two plausible alternatives which I think make for a better clue - although I expect to be alone in this opinion.

Presume one is on location (8) (the 'is' might be dodgy' but we can maybe let this ride - the alternatives destroy the clue)
Fundamental particle gives up right to one place (8)

None
So, in all, how many outstanding clues are there now? I think it's just my Punctuation... one above.
Hit digits have winning card -- and French end self-congratulation (4,4,3,7)
Woo-hoo! I actually managed to complete Araucaria's Saturday Guardian outing unaided this week! Not much to brag about by the standards here, but quite an achievement for me. There were definitely a couple of weak clues, including one of those "girls" rab was just complaining about and what seemed to me a very dodgy thing about drifts, shelves and breakfasts. Happy bunny all the same :)
Boggles
[matt] Wow! I think I've only ever got a single Arucaria. Once. We are not worthy, etc.
None
Well the reason you're all making such a song & dance about the ION of POSITION is that it isn't ION(ESCU) ... you're all ignoring the "back" NO.1 back = ION, and I think No.1 is a reasonable leader.
P.S.
BTW I wouldn't dream of using Ion Iliescu, the Romanian leader in such a context without at least pointing to the country, for as rab says such clues are wildly unfair. I also agree about some of the other vague letter clues - one of the most annoying being "notes" for any of the letters A,B,C,D,E,F,G - If that's allowable (and it generally is) then you might as well allow "letters" and have all 26 !
Do's
[Blob] Fair do's. It was a practice worth highlighting, even if it transpired that you weren't guilty, your honour. But "note" is a single choice of 8. Unless you start including the tonic sol-fa I guess... so although I think this should probably be frowned upon, I would say that if you have less than about a dozen choices you're doing ok. However "boy" expands to a list that spans about 20 pages in my Crossword dictionary and should be banned.
Fair's fair
[rab] I accept your grovelling apology ;-)
Re notes - 8 ? Er, 7 I think ... and yes I suppose 7 ain't too bad. But if it's three such notes then you're up to 343 possible combinations.
Re names - well yes, but usually it boils down to just a few (Sid, Tim & Ian being the favorites) and names such as IGOR are usually clued as "Russian" - but in principle I agree that they are a scoundrel's tactic.
Eight-ball pool
[Blob] Depends on whether you include H, which is German for what we call B.
Hmmm
[rab] A likely story !

Anyway I haven't set one for a while - this one would probably spread over two answers if you know what I mean, as it is 19 letters long, and the max is usually 15 - but we don't have that constraint here.

They come in light, they punish harm - I embraced destruction ! (8,3,8)

None
[Blob] Rab is quite right, H *is* used in Germany (and some other European countries).
H
[Darren, rab] duhh ? So if H = B, what equals A (second time round ?) - or is it A,H,C,D,E,F,G ?
German notation
Germans use eight letters. The British "natural" notes A to G are represented as you so very rightly say above. B is reserved for B-flat. Apparantly it has something to do with a superstition revolving around the use of the letter B. However I suspect it is more likely due to the prevailing mode of the time. (And yes, I do mean mode).
Nota Bene
So it's A,B,H,C,D,E,F,G ... how sensible is that ? Anyway, I don't think a Xwd compiler who used "note" to mean the letter H would be very popular with his subscribers somehow.
Blob's last clue
I guess it is Seraphim and Cherubim ? Being an anagram of "punish harm I embraced".
Very quick
[Bb] It is indeed - I don't think you really had to ask did you - it was unlikely to be an anagram by accident ! I was actually thinking of them the other way round (simply coz. that's the way they are more usually said) but there is nothing in the clue to suuggest the order, so spot on, and *** for getting it so quickly - I thought as anagrams go it was quite tricky - but I seem to remember from the Cryptic Stations games that you have an aptitude for them. wd.
Wow! Singer has pork rump consumed by president. (4,4)
[Blob] Thanks, once I spotted cherub (more by accident), it fell into place. If I can get my brain in gear, I'd supply a clue. I seem to have lost touch with cryptics just lately. Haven't done a crossword in months.
None
Is everyone ignoring my last clue on purpose??
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[Darren] I don't think so. I've just looked it up.
Punctuation, endlessly one group (9)
Mating
That'll be COMMUNITY = COMM(A) + UNITY or I'll pawn my shawl.
Still wearing my shawl
OK, time for another rude one folks.

Flatulence might raise the temperature when receiving head from call-girl -- coat! (11)

Not so much a shawl ....
More a windcheater methinks - (explanation : Flautlence = wind, raise temp = heater, receiving head (first letter) of call girl = C, inserted wind-c-heater)
Wow!
That was quick. Too easy, clearly...
How about ...
Scheming man outside a pod welcome inside. (13)
None
[Blob] It's MACHIAVELLIAN (MAN surrounding A CHILLI, all surrounding AVE).
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