In the game AMV is there a limit to how small you can go, as I was wondering last night, about atoms and molecules. Is a uranium atom "mineral" or is it abstract because at that scale it is millions of atoms that make the solid object. Once I started thinking of this (it was late) I also wondered about neutrinos, quarks, string and unstable waves in the 11th dimension (I had do stop somewhere) when does somethig stop being AVM and are sub/atomic particles allowed?

The atom is the smallest possible "mineral", because it, by definition, is an element. Anything underneath that (e.g. quarks, pions, leptons, gluons, neutrinos, photons, etc.) is abstract.

So where's the distinction between mineral and animal? Animals are made of atoms. And we count parts of animals, such as a leather jacket, as animal for these purposes. So a fragment of bone would count as animal, even though it's just a big pile of calcium atoms. So what about a single atom removed from that bone? Is that animal, while an identical atom removed from a rock is mineral? If we say that both atoms are mineral, then the difference between animal and mineral must lie in the form rather than the matter. But then a dinosaur bone has animal form but is made of mineral matter that was never part of the animal. Chalk is clearly a mineral but is made of what was once animals. In fact, given the existence of the "rock cycle", in which volcanic, metamorphic, and sedimentary rocks all turn into each other - and into animals and plants and back again - with slow but ineluctable regularity, it seems that there is no objective dividing line between any of our three categories, and it's all just arbitrary.

[Breadmaster] It's only a game!

Going back a bit, I did apply to load the revolver in that Derren Brown thing. I got as far as having to do an audition tape but it never went further. Probably I was just too strange.

[BM] If it is alive/dead but the components thereof have not sufficiently decomposed to the point where it would be considered a mineral by geological standards, then it's animal and/or vegetable. A cricket ball, e.g. is both animal and vegetable. Bone, if that were the object in question, I would list as animal and mineral.

Or they just found the idea of Darren and Derren on stage at the same time to be too disturbing...

[BM] All sounds a bit quantum, to me.
What you're trying to do is draw definite lines along fuzzy boundaries, which looks OK from a distance but when you look closely, well, aren't.

[Darren] "Only a game"? You won't win anything with an attitude like that, my lad!

We had the same argument over SARS when that was a subject -- was it an animal, vegetable, or mineral? A virus is a non-cellular collection of ribonucleic acids which merely attaches to an unlucky living cell and sort-of-passively uses the cell's contents to propagate itself.

I'd claim it's a mineral, but others would have a valid argument otherwise.

And what about mushrooms?

Fungi in general would be considered vegetable.

So do we hope he snuffs it or what? (Refusing to get into highly confusing conversation about anything below sub-atomic level)

Dr Q] How would you class Harry Potter?

[Btd] Animal/Abstract.

I'm staggered they're showing Russian Roulette on TV. There was enough trouble with Jackass!! What the f*ck is going on? In a way, I hope he cops it. Would teach the lads at Channel 4 a lesson, eh? Mwahahaah!

The trouble with all these illusionists doing "high-risk" stunts is that we all *know* they'll survive it. It's like an adventure movie, you always have the nauseating knowledge the protagonist will come through in the end. Of course, there have been the rare occasions where it's all gone horribly wrong, but frankly I much prefer smaller, close-up magic than the hyped-up stuff.

So, you may ask, why did I apply for the Derren Brown thing? Well, having seen his other TV shows, I wanted to see what it would be like, simple as that.

[Dujon] Sorry am late replying, visiting friend near Wollongong, and with travel and all I didn't have net access for 48HOURS!!! I coped though :-). I don't know much about identifying snakes, so can't help you there much, but it did look like some sort of python, and was about 6ft long. I put a closeup of its head (and so some of its pattern) in that same directory, if I hadn't mentioned that before.

There is no problem in distinguishing between A, V and M (provided we can agree on a definition of life). Animals have life and a nervous system. Vegetables have life and no nervous system or brain. Minerals don't have life. The definitions include derivatives of Animal and Vegetable eg leather jacket, plank of wood, as has been mentioned. Inkspot puts his finger on it when saying there is a limit of how small you can go and to reduce it to atoms leads to meaninglessness. Even reducing it to molecules causes great difficulties.

I believe that, in the main, the idea is/was to have a target which is commonly known or which can be readily deduced rather than something esoteric. The whole idea is simply to give participants the chance to exercise logic and have a bit of fun in the process. In my opinion the use of 'string', as in the twine variety, is fine; the use of 'string' in the quantum sense is rather obtuse to most people and thus not in the spirit of the game. We all have our areas of special interest and should avoid the use of terms which are specific to experts (amateur or otherwise) in those fields. Well, that's my two bob's worth. ... :-)