I was about to suggest amorini - see here but I still can't quite make it add up.
[CdM] Re Mile End - no it was a clue eons ago - not yours.
No-one's done my little çontrol mechanism (6,6) yet.
As for the bust thing - I'm completely stumped.

[Blob] It's French letter, isn't it?

[Blob] Nonono -- mine was eons ago (June 2000); the other one was hardly more than a year ago. :-)

[rab] It wasn't actually a one-off -- I had the problem for several weeks, and I stopped ever previewing for a while. But then it just went away. Sorry for not keeping you more up to date.

[CdM] Right. This will have to go into the book of the great unexplained.

[Boolbar, MF] It's not that I particularly dislike those ideas, it's just words like "imposter" trigger an "Oh no, not again already"-style response. I actually like the sound of the authors game - with a different moniker I might have realised the potential sooner. The reason for the banned list is that I find that such games, due in part to the huge numbers of times they've been played before, tend to be somewhat lacking in quality.

And while I've got my bad-tempered unchivalrous patronising primary-school teacher imposter hat on - could I urge people to think carefully about (a) the sense and (b) comic potential of their limerick lines. I've seen a number of great set-up lines from all players, only to be let down in a number of cases by not-so-great punchlines. I appreciate that I might be responsible for some of these and have already slapped myself on the wrist.

Aren't the clouds particularly fluffy for the time of year?

[rab] I agree about the overuse of some games leading to a lack of quality. [MF] The 'coin' game at orange is a little too much like the animal game. The 'authors' game I suggested is a little too close to "Once upon a time..." at MCiOS. This is why I've not started either . . . yet.

The clouds out of my window are lacking in fluffiness being more of a fuzzy amoeba-like greyness.

[Watty] Yo's gottit
[CdM] Oh, that eons ago - not sure I'd even discovered the site(s) at that time !
[Games] a straightforward cryptic clues game (not metrocentric) would be new.
Meanwhile, as this seems to be the home of crypticity at the moment, how about :
Support being laundered to change opinions (9)

The moval of the cryptic challenges to a separate page might be a good thing, particularly for those who aren't that interested. It could simply be a forum to post, solve, explain and shout down clues rather than a game with any particular theme or aim (I'm thinking in the style of the various discussion games there are/were at Orange and MCiOS like Books or Rattling Dice).

Meanwhile, Blob, my first thought was brainwash but I can't get that to fit, and in the light of Martha's comment which appeared while writing this, I suspect I'm completely on the wrong track.

[rab] My first thought was jockstrap, but I can't get that to fit either, so I guess it just reveals further unwanted details of my psyche.
[authors] I like this idea, but story games do seem to get mired pretty quickly. Once Upon A Time already looks ready to be shot in the head. Oddly enough, the first move in that game was originally going to be by "Arthur Conan Matt" -- which could easily have (unintentionally) turned it into something like you're suggesting -- perhaps it might have worked better if so.

[rab] Spot on : not sure what you object to : bra is a support, in wash is being laundered, brainwash is to change opinions. Can't really see why that's not playing the game.

No, that's fine. You shouldn't assume that just cos I don't get it, I think there's something wrong with the clue. I am also quite dense.

Just a quick note to say that I’m off on my hols tomorrow, so I’ll ‘see’ everyone on the 16th when I get back.

What's so funny? Weirdos.

[rab, Blob] Um, now might be a good time for you to reconsider:
Bust down reason (9).

I think I might have worked out why CdM and Martha are chortling so ... but if so, I don't really get the clue.

Oh, I see! Martha kinda put me off the scent a bit. And, no, I'd never have got this in a million years without the foregoing and a numerical hint.

I think Raak's posted a category killer of a move in Shakes and Ladders... I have a couple of ideas, but how to compete with such an excellent play?

*sound of someone being incredibly thick* (still can't get it - I have a nasty feeling that when I finally discover the answer to this, I may have to (a) hit myself over the head with my mouse then (b) hunt down Martha & CdM .... )

It's August!

[Blob] Tempting though it is to leave you out there swaying in the wind ... let me put it this way. Perhaps now is a good time for you to reconsider
Bust down reason (9)
in the light of
Support being laundered to change opinions (9).
Here's another hint. If you examine the two clues closely, you will notice that there is the same number of letters in each answer!

[Dunx] I have another daisy-cutter ready, but I've been holding off, hoping for other people to carry on.

[Raak] I'll try and post my one feeble idea later today, but the pressure of following such an outstanding move is rather great!

Ah - so I clued the same word. Not quite as serendipitous as it might at first seem, as brainwash was one of the words I'd considered but rejected - but it looked like a nice sort of word to clue, so I did. I still don't really see why it's the answer though. I think I'd put that on my crap clues pile along with about 20% of the Daily Mail ones that I only get once I have sufficient letters.

That came out a bit peevish - perhaps I'm missing something.

Hello again. I've been away, but sadly nowhere exciting (And i've been keeping my eye on things by the joy of WAP). I'm looking forward to the cryptic page, sounds like my cup of tea! Anyway I've had an idea for a game. Not sure if the technology is out there (and I'm sure someone far cleverer in such matters will be able to say "yay" or "nay") or if its been done before (and failed) but anyway, The idea is a caption competition. Someone posts a piccie and then we all suggest captions until we get bored, then someone else posts a different piccie. Will it work?

[Lib] Spinnwebe and other sites have been doing glorified caption competitions for years. Don't see why it can't work here too. You just have to be careful about where you get the pics, of course. Spinnwebe (aside from the ill-fated DFC which ripped off the Family Circus cartoons) used to get pics from people submitting their own photos into the stockpile. We could do that here, it would be a lot of fun.

Oh, and as for cryptics, if anyone ever ventures into rec.puzzles.crosswords, I was the creator of the FSCC (five-second crossword competition) which afaik still runs to this day. (You make a 5x5 cryptic crossword with certain restrictions, and the participants vote on the entries to see who wins.) Typical of me, though, I never took part in it again after the very first round!

Sorry for posting so many times on this page with so little content. Here's a link for Spinnwebe's caption stuff: http://www.spinnwebe.com/a1/

[Blob] I couldn't get this, but having had it revealed I can see the rationale and I have to agree it is frightfully elegant. Both MF and CdM have described the mechanism, so it is probably redundant of me to point out the double definition: reason bust is down = bra in wash; to bust down reason: brainwash -- but as MF will no doubt attest, I'm always ready to be ploddingly literal at times like these.

In any case, since Lib has gently encouraged Mrs Trellis back into retirement, perhaps it's time to dignify the cryptologists with a game of their own? I'd do it myself if I had the aptitude, but (as should be painfully obvious) I don't.

[matt] Well, you click on 'Start a new game' and then... oh. I see what you mean. Yes we need a suitable title and intro blurb. In the absence of other titles, perhaps 'Bust down reason (9)' would be appropriate?

Or Obscure vault 99 (7)

Or "Cry 'Picts!' - resolve difficulties"?
Anyway, can anyone help with "Bank's route to the deposits" I-C-I--? I think it might be Incline, but why?

I suppose you have inc-line (or a line/route to an inc) where inc = increase = deposit, and a bank is an incline.

[Boolbar] Your "wail..." clue isn't quite legitimate as it omitted the straight def, and it doesn't really work as an &lit imho either. Maybe make it "Clues wail over postscript about spasm" but that doesn't have a very good surface, unfortunately. [matt] Incidentally, "bust down reason" isn't a double def, it's an &lit. A double def is where you have two definitions next to each other. An &lit (meaning "and literally true") is where the whole clue is simultaneously both the cryptic form *and* the straight def.

Some nice clues but I can't get 6D. Maybe it'll come to me when I go for a swim presently. For the record the clue is "Hope chest contains last gift brought over (6,6)" and I have B_T_O_ D_A_E_. I would also explain why I find some of today's clues quite elegant, but think I should wait until someone makes a ruling on what the X-word game should be called.

BOTTOM DRAWER. I tried the Independent crossword yesterday, and solved exactly one clue. Completely baffled by the rest -- how does the Independent crossword rank against the others for difficulty? Left it on the train, so I can't quote examples.

[Raak, re your solution[ That's what I thought but why?

[Raak, re Indie] I had a go at this too, and solved four clues. My Dad does the Indie on a daily basis, and I can't remember which setters he claims to be easier than the others. I think they range from somewhere just above the Everyman to somewhere just below Arucaria. But I might be wrong.

[rab] "Hope chest" is the definition, "last" is a definition of the first word, and "gift brought over (i.e. reward reversed)" indicates the second.

[Darren] You are right, but I though it was getting so obvious what was being clued that the definition was pointless (well that's my excuse anyway!!)

[Raak] Thanks for that... I've never heard of a hope chest, but I did at least manage to get a fruity desert I'd never heard of in the same puzzle so that almost gave me a feeling of pride and accomplishment.

[Game names] Any of those would do. Someone care to cut the ribbon, or do I have to do it?

Update update The requested simulpost-during-preview warning has been added. But not, I'm afraid, on this website. It's on the 'working copy' which, for good measure, has been converted to use an exciting new cauliflower to drive the HTML sprocket. What this means in practice is that you'll notice no changes in the forseeable future, but I might one day get round to writing alternative interfaces (eg WAP). Job etc.

Hey, look at that. My connection has stayed alive three mornings in a row. Which is handy, with me working on weekend time for two of them, and forgetting to check on my way out again this morning.

[CdM, MF, matt] O.k. I see it now - and as you say, it does have a certain elegance. My only quibble with is really is that it is a bit two-staged, in that <hidden_bit>one has to get to "bra in wash" as a reason for the bust to be down, and normally such two-stage clues are inadmissable. Like having to find a word and then anagramise it. I've seen it done, but it does cause confusion IMHO</hidden_bit>

The distinctive feature of the "bust down reason" clue is that the entire clue is simultaneously the definition and the cryptic indication, instead of them being separate halves.

[Blob] I think this what Manley calls "A clue to a clue"; but didn't you know you can excuse anything with a question mark. In any case as Raak and Darren point out, it's an &lit clue. This type of clue is what people entering the Azed clue-writing competition usually aim for. Often with disastrous consequences, as it's extremely difficult to get a clue that is both crossword-grammatically correct and furnish a sound definition of the whole.

The obscure vault has been opened, probably to the relief of the uninterested.