Avoid storage. If you buy things like cupboards, boxes, drawers, shelves to store all that junk then you just give yourself more space to fill with more junk which requires more storage and so on until you reach the point where to have more storage, you need a bigger house. You move to a bigger house which involves packing, so you throw away about 50% of your junk and end up in a house with loads of space. Ideal for filling with junk.

Virtually everything I own is 2nd hand and at the end of its usefulness just goes back to the charity shop. All, that is except my own compulsive obsessive collection of CDs. They stay.

I have heard that men suffer far more from OCD than women (examples include trainspotters, twichers and - ahem - sexual fanatics) and that this is linked to autism - thus linking maleness with communication problems. Anyone else heard of this?

[Bob] I think men do indeed suffer more from OCD then women, but I'm not necessarly sure that I'd call trainspotters obsessive. Like all things in life its not black and white. I think one of the main criteria for a diagnosis of OCD to be made is the fact that it inteferes with normal life and the intense feelings that come from not doing the compulsion. Linking maleness with communication problems is quite a vast step, can I turn the tables and suggest that women communicate too much?

[Bob] I fear for your chickens when they reach the end of their egg productivity ;-).
OCD - I always thought it affected males and females equally and this might support that [unless they do things differently over there].
[Lib] Have just spotted your post as I was simul-ing - I agree - the link between the two is a HUGE step.

did u know ur a googlewhack? its penchant gazump

[paul] Who ... me? :-)

chalky] Nah - chickens are safe. Anyway, they are a variety that remain productive until they are 7 years old!
Lib] sorry - yes, trainspotting is not really OCD but I felt it may be linked to the kind of one-dimensional thought processes that males sometimes exhibit. I know loads of blokes who obsess about everything from computers to sport - girls seem to share this 'single mindedness' only when it concerns self preservation and children. Am I being extremely unfair to my own gender? Regarding communication - I find it incredibly difficult to talk to other men unless I share a passion with them, or are they are effeminate. In social situations, I enjoy hearing women and effeminate men talk because you are so much better at discussing emotional subjects.

I do actually suffer from an OCD which I now have more or less under some form of control, the details of which I will not go into, but I can say from very very painful experience that trainspotting has nothing in common, nothing whatsoever, not even close, not so much a different ballpark but a different sport played by the wrong rules by people trained in scuba diving wearing spacesuits. Believe me, a true OCD is life-destroying, it's all consuming to the point where you cannot function at all, you forget to eat, you forget to sleep, you care only about your OCD. Obsessive behaviour is very common in males, especially I think with the type of males who frequent this type of website (myself included), but it's not a disorder.

It is interesting that the terms 'nerd' and 'geek' are usually applied to the male gender and that may be because - sweeping generalisation alert - they appear to be more pastime/hobby/enthusiast/fancier orientated. Perhaps they have more time on their hands?
BTW Bob - how would you define an 'effeminate' man? Are you referring to those of a homosexual persuasion or those who are in touch with their feminine side?

Bob] Methinks that living in a house with three females doesn't help you in this. I must admit I like talking to girls as well ;o)

On the subject of hobbies - I wonder if this is a cultural thing. It might be that young boys are more often encouraged to persue their hobbies and interests. I can's offer any observations about young girls cos neither I nor my brother was one. And I suspect that by the time we stopped being scared of them, and actually started liking them, this was unlikely to be the kind of question we were interested in. So what do parents get their daughters doing?

[rab] good question and one which I'm sort of qualified to put my two pennorth in, being the only girl with three brothers as well as mother of girls. Boys [in general] are happy to pursue a hobby on their own. Girls [in general] are more responsive to peer group pressure and prefer to do the hobby stuff with their friends. My 13-year old is far more enthusiastic about the drama club that all her cool friends attend, than the piano lessons where she has to go it alone, even though she is far more talented piano-wise than drama-wise.

As a child I spent a lot of time playing with my brother. As he was older this generally consisted on him chasing me, him jumping on me, him spraying me with a hose then locking me out of the house. And other activities like rugby, scalelectrix, hockey and taunting. But I did possess dolls and played with them with my female friends when I wasn't being terrorised by my big bro! My mum was particularly keen for me to persue my hobbies chosen by her, eg piano and violin practice which went down about as well as the insults from my brother!

[FG] Well done for getting it under control, and long may it continue. I've heard that its worse than a herion addiction, so it can't have been easy.

Re: throwing things away (or not, as the case may be) - I don't suffer from OCD, but I do exhibit a fair number of ADD behaviours¹. ADD is apparently quite often misdiagnosed as OCD, depending on the particular collection of behaviours exhibited. The behaviour which leads to collecting massive amounts of stuff is a decision making shortfall.

[1] ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) is a bad name, but it is also the name assigned to whatever ADD is. Personally, I don't think it's a disorder of the individual so much as a mismatch between how society trains people to behave and how some people's brains work, but there we are. The effect is much the same.

Rab] I'm a dad with girls. I've not tried to push dresses or football on them, but they are naturally girly. Friends with boys agree, gender stereotypes are produced by the child choosing the behaviour patterns that they feel most comfortable with.
Chalky] (Beware - beware more sweeping generalisations) I mean those with the (generally) female characteristic of being able to communicate. This includes homosexual men. Some of the people I get on with best are gay because I like the way they can empathise. One of my best friends is only so because he made a pass at me. I, however, am hetero.
st d] Yeah - seven females vv me... sometimes I crave for a blokey night out at the local where we can eat raw (freshly hunted) buffalo steak and drink gallons of beer after a night wolf-whistling, playing rugby and mud wrestling.

Well Mr Bob the Dog, I can help you out in the drinking beer stakes, but I think I will leave the mud-wrestling to the others.

Oh I wasn't clear - mud wrestling (with) girls :o)

OCD-no.
ADD-most likely; never been diagnosed as such but I suspect it's the case.
Me & women-I can talk to women on a strictly professional basis. However, if it gets even mildly personal (and I'm not sufficiently pissed), I basically turn into a paralyzed crab. Of course, talking Linux and cricket (sometimes simultaneously) doesn't draw the hotties here in Pittsburgh. :|

[Dr Q] I was only diagnosed because the coping strategies I had developed made me depressed. I self-treated and resolved to stop using those coping strategies, but then I wasn't coping and I became depressed.

I wanted to write a little about how much I respected FG and Dunx for coping with OCD and ADD and having the courage to express it here. However, I'm a bloke, so I could never do a thing like that because it may reveal my blousey emotional side ;o)

[Bob] Hear hear. Also to Dr Q for disclosing paralysed crab tendencies when faced with laydeez who don't necessarily wish to talk business. Now that surprised me a little, although it shouldn't really - we often assume we 'know' someone based on our familiarity with their online persona.

It's a lot easier to sound sophisticated and erudite when you have the time to pick your words carefully. For example, if this were a face-to-face conversation, I probably wouldn't have said 'erudite' just now.

Have ADD, only officially 'labelled' in 2000. However, like many 'sufferers', I have a high IQ, and had learnt to disguise it over the years, along with my lysdexia

deslyxia
axeldysi
dislexya
ah! Daily Sex! I think I'll keep that one...

My proclivity for the amassment of huge piles of 'stuff' has absolutely nothing to do with ADD/OCD or any other disorder - apart from disorder itself; it is pure and unadulterated laziness. I do not collect objects in the sense of an aim in itself. I have, over many decades, learned to live with this affliction and simply accept it as 'me'. I do sympathise with those who have such leanings - that's the compulsive side of a personality - as I have had something similar for many, many years now but which is not at all related to the collection/arrangement side of things ... no, I'm not going into it here.

[Riff] You are correct, to a point, but is it just that you are afeared that the other parties to a conversation may be ignorant of the meaning of certain words and, therefore, you 'lower' your language to the level that you surmise is acceptable?

I did a test online today for those. Luckily, I appeared to score low on pretty much every disorder, although I tested as "moderate" for Schizotypal, Obsessive-Compulsive, and Paranoid and "High" for Histrionic and Avoidant. Happily, I know what none of these things mean, with the exception of obsessive-compulsive disorder (ocd) which anyone who knows me knows is rubbish (coathangers, anyone?) I'll go with Dujon. I'm just lazy.

Locospotting if you don't mind. As a 12-yr-old I was a locospotter, but it was all steam in those days, and also regarded as quite normal. We all indulged in serious trespass in pursuit of engine numbers. But these days if I see a 30-yr old in an anorak, yes!, at the end of a platform noting the numbers then there's something seriously wrong. It's not OCD; just sad. How can anyone be interested in a sodding diesel? No charisma. And they don't talk.

Can talk business (any time) or small-talk (after a pint) with anyone, male or female, though am often told my small-talking style is much more like a woman's than a man's (well I did learn it from my mother, pretty much a single divorced parent.) Can talk "football/rugby/insert sport of choice here" with anyone in the bar, drunk or sober, owing to fine memory for statistics. Can only talk "personal" with girls, never guys, and only on an abstract basis, otherwise go into paralyzed-crab mode. Actually prefer talking to women rather than men. Frequently have gay men making passes at me - never women (and have an equally annoying tendency to try to chat up women who then turn out to be lesbians. I didn't know there *was* such a thing as reverse gaydar...) Am totally straight and thus pissed off at the above situation.
Not sure about AD(H)D or OCD, but I suspect a reasonable case could be made, especially for the former. And in the latter case, I'm a minor obsessive who hates people that get more obsessive than me (about anything) but defends his right to be *this* obsessive ;-)

there is, of course, scientific proof for each, and severe cases can be quite crippling. On a lighter note, has anyone taken this test? http://www.penddraig.co.uk/pen/tests/sanity.htm

[Chalky] Pro'lly because we've never met in person. Of course, if it's a large enough crowd, I can just go about being the sarcastic, heavily vulgar, semi-humourous arsehole I usually am.
Then again, most members of the American female persuasion find me decidedly unattractive anyway, so I don't have to put up with it that often.

And as for rubbish...I'm a packrat. Nothing will be thrown out. EVER.

[ZK] 30.1%. Am I nuts?

Ah, Rosie, you tickled a few synapses there! Trespass indeed! True though; if you did it now, there'd be a couple of policemen crawling down an embankment to ask you funny questions. Even after I came to Australia I still kept an interest in steam engines (although my older brother was a real afficianado; he had records - that's 12" LPs - of various engines, trains, locations which were marvellous.) In those days (and we did) we used to travel on the local electric trains out to Penrith where some of the engines were turned around on a turntable to enable the return journey back through the mountains. Marvellous stuff. The 'lads' there even welcomed us and showed us around, let us watch the operations and explained any questions we may have had. To those of you younger than I, please accept my apologies for a bit of reminiscing.

[ZK] Rubbish. According to that site I'm only 17.45454543% disadvantaged. That is demonstrably incorrect, otherwise I wouldn't be here and, certainly, would not take such a revealing quiz. Ptooe. ... ;-)

I am insaner than thou! ;)

[Duj] I'm significantly younger than ye :), but I fully understand the fascination with the old engines. (Remind me to send you the pic of my great-grandfather and his engine.) You can often find videotapes and DVDs here of rail journeys. Next time I head up to Horseshoe Curve or other such rail history in Western PA I'll see if I can find any.

has anyone been to sheringham? funky steam trains there, although a bit limited. was a big fan of Thomas the Tank Engine when younger but by the time I came along, they didn't make 'em like that any more! Nevertheless, I will always hold an affinity for Ringo Starr and his funnelled companions.

[Dujon] A good point, and that's probably at least a little of it (particularly if I have a low opinion of the intelligence of the person I'm talking to). But I tend to be shy around people I don't know, and the pressure to maintain a conversation in that situation makes me default to easier words simply because it's hard enough to string a sentence together as it is. In a more relaxed situation with friends, the more complicated words come more easily, and if someone doesn't know a word, I shrug and define it for them. Another aspect of it, probably, is that with people I don't know, the topic of conversation is rarely complicated enough to require any specialized vocabulary.

[re: junk] My excuse for accumulating huge piles of junk is that I might want to glue some of it together into sculpture. Of course, this rarely happens, but the fact that it does happen once in a while makes it that much harder to throw any of it away. From where I'm sitting, I can count nine empty cigarette boxes (one of them an interesting little slide-drawer thing), an attractive Harrods cookie tin, and a large lump of rusty metal that I haven't any idea what it is.

Mwhahahahahahhaha!

Don'tcha just LOVE these cosy late night chats?

Half pickled Thursday afternoons; don't you people understand that I'm supposed to be working/

{Riff} Indeed. I remember with fondness the silly word games and references in which my family indulged over the evening meal. When I finally went to a job I found that all of my witty(?) remarks simply floated above. I was, to be honest, devastated. Nevertheless, I have finally found a 'home' in the various M.C. style web sites. Whilst my 'witty' remarks are not alway appreciated and, having met many who are far more clever than myself, I find that I rather like this community.

Sorry for the pathetic overtones, but it's true.

I'm not that good at small talk, I find it tiring and often don't know what to talk about, and so just lapse into silence, listen, watch, etc. If it's something I'm interested in, I can talk about/around it, or if I have nothing to say, can listen to someone burble on, and ask a question or two, or add something here or there (often surprising people, in the process, it seems). I'm learning to ask questions. I'm always much more comfortable with one or two other people, or in small groups rather than large ones, and definitely preferably people I know. I don't know about any men/women difference. But I am willing to let conversations pause.

Some people find this disconcerting, or think I'm boring, or (more likely) stupid. *shrugs*. It's lonely sometimes, but places like this are very good, and I think I've learned a great deal. Thanks.

[flerdle] I'm exactly the same, and I quite agree.

The "other one" out of the disorders that manifest themselves in compulsive menky collecting types of behaviour is Asperger Syndrome, believed in recent years to be a sort of autism-lite. It basically is intended to be an umbrella label for those with somewhat impaired social skills, a preoccupation with abstract hobbies on which they "perseverate" (e.g. focus on to the exclusion of all else for long periods of time, including when talking to someone else) and who find it difficult to empathise or instinctively understand other people's motivations. For a time I believed I was aspergic until I actually went out and met some people who really were and had the chance to compare. This was a painful exercise which involved listening politely to the full details of the history of South West trains. After years of neglect it has become an extremely fashionable diagnosis recently for children, and, it seems to me, is overapplied.

[Smalltalk] I'm exceptionally bad at smalltalk, and also don't respond well to it. I'm not one of these people who generally can talk to, say, a hairdresser, probably because I feel like I have no common reference points. That said, where I fall down is not being very good at the verbal parrying that establishes what the common reference points are. This is made worse by being a hopeless bloke, having no interested in cars, football and, to a certain extent, tits. So even the usual gambits just fail on me miserably. This probably marks me out as being 'boring', and would probably be confirmed if my interlocutors were to discover those subjects I do have an opinion about. New people can be problematic, too. I don't know if flerdle or penelope remember what I was like when I turned up at my first pilg...

[Aspergers] I have a friend who is like this, and his mum suggested he might have Aspergers. However a friendly medic who had met him immediately said "No, he's not got Aspergers"... I think there is a fashion to give everything a fancy label nowadays, and like Projoy, believe this is not a good thing. I would have thought it were obvious that different people approach things differently, and there's degrees of conformance to the "standard" way of doing things (known popularly as "normality").

In fact, drawing these two stands together, I find most "normal" people rather dull. Is this just me being an arrogant arse-wit?

[Aside] Am currently "working" at home, and the phone rang whilst composing the above. The caller hung up immediately. I hate that - why can't they just admit to having dialled a wrong number? I don't think it was a potential burglar...

[rab] I think you reminded me of me :-)

... and I was overcompensating out of sheer terror :-)

[flerdle] I didn't mean to scare you! Luckily I think the beer and Tim-Tams sorted everything out.

[rab] My last posting was just to explain why (perhaps??) I seemed rather boisterous at times, (I wasn't saying that you were or weren't) which is another way of "coping", but not my usual one, I think because of the complete novelty of it all, especially the Tim-Tams. And I was stone cold sober, so that wasn't any excuse either. You certainly didn't scare me, and am looking forward to hopefully visiting again next summer.

Which, in a way, brings us back to collecting junk: I have a small amount of "stuff", but mostly I have books (I've been very restrained, honest!!). I used to have a tendency to collect empty or hardly-used notebooks (mmmm stationery), but recently disposed of almost all of them. A lot of things will be farmed out to friends/relatives, and some stored, but I'm quite looking forward to starting again in January with little more than a suitcaseful. Should be interesting.

Wow, what a stream of revelations we have here. Bob is right to say that OCD is something quite different from "obsessiveness", and I get very angry when people talk about being "a bit obsessive-compulsive" and so on, when Goddammit! They haven't the faintest idea what it means. Sometimes I wish I could just turn my whole brain off and put it away in storage for a long, long, time. Someone asked earlier if OCD is related to autistic disorders, and there is evidence that it is. There is a greater overlap of occurrences of OCD and Asperger's than you would statistically expect, and indeed I have had my own brain photographed, rather excitingly, in an experiment to test this. Asperger's is the syndrome suffered by the narrator in The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time and one of the reasons I was so moved by that book was that, God help me, I identified with practically every aspect of him, except for being unable to read expressions, which is a defining characteristic of Aspergers. Many of the things that character does, such as counting, refusing to touch certain things, etc. are traits associated with OCD. Personally I think OCD, autism, and Asperger's are all somehow related, but people like me are very much on the "high-functioning" end of that spectrum, which means we can pass ourselves off as normal human beings. Well, most of the time.
By the way, it's true that some of these disorders are "over-diagnosed", but they are "under-diagnosed" as well. One in twenty adults in the UK has ADD, but the vast majority are never diagnosed.

rab] are you saying that you don't believe Projoy is a good thing ?
I can talk to anyone, but I hate listenintg. Ha ha.

Apologies, by the way, in case any of this is inappropriately confessional or too dull for anyone else! I've been thinking about it a lot recently (I do anyway, naturally) because someone at work actually guessed that I have OCD from watching my peculiar rituals, which rather shook me because, although I do peculiar rituals literally all the time, I normally hide them pretty well and people don't realise. Perhaps I'm getting worse.

I'm not sure whether things are over or under diagnoised. Does having a label help matters? I know that I've got many traits which are typical of many diseases (my thinking pattern is very common in people with schizophreina, I have depressive phases, I'm mildly dyslexic) and I'm sure if I was analysed fully I'd have all sorts of nasty disorders. But thankfully they don't affect my life much, and I consider myself to be fairly sane. So does diagnosing mild ADD, mild OCD or mild Aspbergers help? There's no definate treatment (although congitive therapy can help, but cognitive therapy can help a lot of people) so why the need to label it?

What Dunx describes above is almost exactly what happened to me but in reverse I think. The OCD arose because I was depressed and would obsess on tiny things, believing absolutely that those things were the cause of my depression and if only I could sort them out I'd be happy. When, of course, I didn't sort them out I became more depressed, and so on and so on.
I can quite strongly reccomend hypnotherapy for the treatment of OCD. I wouldn't call it a cure but it sure helped me.
As far as diagnosis goes I don't think with these things that it's that clear cut. It's simply what you might call a personality trait, and we all exhibit different personality traits in differring amounts. Some people are talkative, some are fly-by-night, some are obsessive. I think we assign the term 'disorder' when one of these traits goes to an extreme such that it interferes with the normal day-to-day running of our lives. If we had a sound scientific way of actually measuring the extent to which each trait applied to us, the the term 'disorder' would be redundant.

[Lib] I think the label does help. One of the things that helped me (and is still helping me) pull up out of the spiral of OCD was the fact that I could give it a name. I know now that I have an obsession, and that makes it less real so that I can actually control and sometimes ignore it. When you're in the depths of OCD you fully do not realise that you are obsessing, you just think that there is nothing else to life.

[st d] I can listen to anyone, but I hate talking.
[Lib] Naming a thing (and to some extent inventing the thing by the process of naming it) can cut both ways. The Asp/Aut/AD(H)D concept is now out there to a degree to which it wasn't, not many years ago. This lets people use it as a convenient club to beat people they can't deal with, but also lets others recognise themselves in it and make contact with each other. I've read alt.support.autism on and off, and there's a lot of very interesting, politically conscious stuff goes by. In fact, a lot of the politics is exactly the same as for being gay, black, deaf, or female. For pretty much any position that has ever been taken on any of these issues, change the specifics and it would be something that someone has said about any of the others.
[BM] Anyone who enjoyed "Curious Incident" might also be interested in Elizabeth Moon's Speed of Dark, an SF novel in which the central character is autistic. The characterisation is quite similar.

Having a label helped me a lot for similar reasons to FG - I could capture my demon. Looking back at my life and the way that things have gone, I can also recognise ADD behaviours there (indeed, recognising ADD behaviours in my school reports was a key element of the diagnosis). This gives me power to forgive myself: ADD is not an excuse for my poor performances in the past, but I've spent too much of my life thinking of myself as lazy and weak. I feel that I understand better why my education was so skewed towards things I liked, or why I flit from subject to subject, or why I will focus on interesting things to the exclusion of all else, or why I have such an appalling sense of the passage of time. Recognising these things (rather than blaming myself for them) has helped a lot.

they tried to label me as Bi-polar (it's all coming out isn't it ?) but I just smiled knowingly and carried on reading the numberplates.

I'm normal on the surface. Whatever demons I carry with me are my business, but I'm approaching 40, single, childless and seem to be attracted by, and attractive to, men 15 years my junior. Make your own conclusions, then keep them to yourself! ;o)

[Lib] Ah, but they're not just labels. They're objective realities. Saying that someone has ADD, for example, isn't just saying that they have a bunch of particular personality traits - it means that they have a particular genetically transmitted condition which causes those traits. As Fat German says, if you don't have the traits very badly, you probably don't have the condition with which those traits are sometimes associated. But if you know that someone does have that condition then you can treat it, if treatment is appropriate. Describing this kind of diagnosis as "applying labels" is as silly as talking of disgnosing a broken leg or lung cancer or any other illness or condition as "applying labels". Certainly I have found it enormously helpful to be properly diagnosed because it means I can recognise OCD things for what they are and deal with them accordingly. And this is true of many other people I have spoken to, with OCD and with ADD as well.

[BM] There is a crucial difference, though, between a broken leg and these mental conditions or constitutions. In the case of a broken leg, you can demonstrate the objective existence of a physical pathology, and there are treatments known to be effective in pretty much every individual case. For ADD and the like, no-one has demonstrated either an objective pathology, or an objectively effective treatment based on an understanding of the pathology. All we have is descriptions of symptoms that cluster together (although no individual need show all of them), vague genetic correlations, and supposed treatments of very variable effect. There may indeed be a definite thing wrong with the brains of OCD sufferers, and there may be possible treatments as effective as setting a broken bone and applying a cast, but currently, very little is actually known.

(simulposted by a much more succinct post from Raak, but...)
[BM] Well... yes and no. I'll take ADD as my example, since that is obviously what I know best.

It is clear that ADD behaviours can be severe enough to cause problems, and that there are a lot of people who carry these behaviours around with them, but it is not certain that ADD is an objectively definable disease. For instance, ADD has been described and recognised by the US psychiatric establishment for more than 30 years (although its name has been changed a few even times over that time), but the UK establishment only officially recognised ADD in the 1990s - this despite the first published work on ADD being in the UK a hundred years before. Even in the US, ADD has only recently (ie in the last ten years or so) been widely recognised as occurring in adults - it was considered a childhood affliction which was obliterated by adolescence.

Part of the problem is that labelled conditions such as ADD, OCD, etc are note discrete: a bone is broken or it is not broken, but ADD has more degrees than there are labels, and even then it is not clear that even someone whose collection of symptoms is technically pathological enough to be so labelled is actually displaying anything more than just a strong personality trait. There has been work to scan brains under ADD-expressing conditions, and there are apparently common factors to those scans, but ADD is at best a collection of possibly related symptoms. But then is personality just an expression of brain chemistry?

As I say, my belief is that those who are actually disadvantaged by their ADD behaviours are those who have been trying to use their brains in ways which don't mesh with their brain chemistry or personality, where "one size fits all" education systems teach the same learning mechanisms to everyone regardless of how they really learn best. This is one of the reasons that I talk about my having ADD behaviours; Idon't consider myself to be diseased¹.

[1] this is going in a footnote because it's not part of the core point, but one of the things which concerns me about statements that ADD is underdiagnosed is that it is then treated as a disease. At this point the children (and this is where I become most concerned - it is almost always children) are dosed up with psychostimulants in order to make them fit in rather than training them to use their brains to their best advantage: the problem is not solved, it is avoided.

Absol-bloodly-lutely. Extremely well put. It extends beyond education and learning mechanisms too, in my view.

[Dunx and Raak] Hear hear. Nicely expressed.

As Raak says, a leg is generally broken or not broken, and the difference is pretty clear and agreed upon, but you get members of any minority group into a room (ADD sufferers, autists, gays, black people) into a room and ask them to define "ADD", "autism" or, heaven help you, "gayness" or "blackness" and you will soon have a heated debate on your hands.

...just witness the endless controversies in the last few decades over the definition and meaning of "disabled".